Tentitively optimistic (seahorse babies)

[loans_n_fishes]

Ok, I am having a little better luck with my babies thus far. I have one that is nearly 5 weeks old! I know this may not sound like much, but my survival rates before did not go beyond a week.

Right now, I have 3 batches of babies in a 10 gal tank (one "batch" is my 5 week old).

1- 5 week old erectus/barb cross.
9- going on 2 week old erectus/barb cross
MANY (probably around 75 to 100??)- erectus/reidi cross born on Saturday.

I should have another batch of erectus/barb in a week or so.

I fish out the little guys from my main tank using a plastic ladle to transfer them to a specimen container and then send them on over to the nursery.

My revised setup:

10 gallon tank with tank divider. Algae, a little live rock, and a seasoned biowheel (not the whole filter) on one side and babies on the other.

On the baby side I have a bbs hatcher that hangs in the tank. The bbs swim out after hatching. I add a couple of small scoops of eggs each day to keep 'em coming. There is also an air pump with only the tubing (no airstone) attached about the middle of the baby side to keep movement on the water surface and of course give them air. I have a plastic plant for them to hitch to.

The algae side is producing a good amount of pods! I am feeding rotifers 3x/day and frozen cyclopeez 3x/day, plus the bbs hatcher and the pods continuously. I also add about 1/2 capful of DTs daily to feed the bbs and pods. I was afraid of overfeeding, but that doesn't seem to be happening. I am judging based on the fact that they are ALIVE!

I am keeping a light on the tank 24/7, but I move the light over to the algae side at night (to make things a little dimmer) and back over the horses during the day. I am keeping the tank up and running/cycled between batches (don't think there will be much "between" time now--about every 2 weeks). I have an ammonia alert hanging in the tank as well.

Tweaks I will make soon: Need at least one more air pump for algae side of tank--would also like to add another to horse side. I'm gonna need some more tanks if this continues--GREAT problem to have!

I do not do massive water changes. I want to keep everything as stable as possible.

It IS NOT a pretty setup, but seems to be working thus far.

My baby batches are all mixed together in the one tank and it seems to be going well. However, I know it is putting all of my eggs in one basket. I can't logically have a tank for each batch, but I am open to suggestions/donations --JK.

Providing I actually start having some really good success, what do you all think the horses would sell for? Would you consider a mixed breed more, or less desirable?

I'll keep you updated!

Angela

[blueboy]

sounds really cool. i'd like to see some pics of your nursery, and the proud parents as well. the set up sounds interesting. it seems like the accepted method of rearing involves massive water changes. it's cool to hear that this unique set up is showing some sucess.

[KarenR]

I would be interested in buying some of your horses once they get big enough to sell. I've seen horses selling in the LFS for anywhere between $20 and $40 so that should give you a ball park. Consider they are marking them up to make a profit but you also have to factor in your time and expense in the process. Please put me on the list for the future. Thanks

[MissT]

Congratulations on your babies!!! and good luck, please keep us posted.

[erikharrison]

PICS! BTW Hi Angela! :)

[loans_n_fishes]

Hey Erik! Good to "see" you!

All babies are still alive and eating. I will do a 50% water change today. I'm a little nervous though. All of those tiny little things! Instead of siphoning most from the baby side, I will siphon from the algae side.... Of course, I will still need to siphon the bottom of the tank on the baby side and wipe down the sides, etc.

Well, the price will definitely be more than $20--and probably more than $40 as well. It's pretty rare to have a combo like this and barbs usually go for $80 to $125 each. If you buy an erectus, the price is usually in the $50 to $75 range each. Reidi are about the same as erectus. I would think a combo (especially erectus/barb) would command a price toward the upper end of the scale, but I will ask around on seahorse.org as well. I certainly won't take advantage of anyone, but as we all know, the rare stuff typically sells higher.

The horses you are seeing for $20 are 99.99% likely to come from the wild. It is best not to buy these. Typically they have (or develop easily) diseases and don't eat frozen. The $40 ones are an excellent price, but as you can see above, different types go for different amounts. BE SURE to ask if they are captive bred, where they are from, what type they are, how long they have been at the store, what the store is feeding them, and see if they will eat frozen mysis (have them fed in front of you).

I'm a proud Mama!! Baby and tank pics coming soon.

[loans_n_fishes]

Lost 12 of the erectus/reidi cross. :( However, all of my erectus/barbs are still alive and seem to be growing quickly. :)

I know that the reidi are going to be harder to raise, and honestly I don't expect to be able to keep any alive. That doesn't mean that I won't try my best, but they may need a completely different set up than what I have going now. Perhaps it's not enough water movement to keep them off the top? I'm not quite sure what the problem is. Heck, maybe there isn't a problem and these are just the "failure to thrive" horses. I hope I do right by these babies!

I am going to start shaved mysis for my oldest guy this week. However, the cyclopeez/rotifers/bbs will continue--mainly for the smaller horses, but I think it will help transition my "big" guy too.

[loans_n_fishes]

Just got back from the LFS and put 4 peppermint shrimp on the algae side of the nursery. I am hoping that they will eventually produce babies to provide some extra food for the ponies. Do you think they will help clean the tank a little, too?

[erikharrison]

I'm curious to know that too. :) What temp do you have to keep your SH at? I am seriously still debating doing a 30g SH tank. I have it ready to go. :D

[loans_n_fishes]

I know they are supposed to be kept cooler, but mine are typically around 76. It is hard to get it below that during the summer.

[loans_n_fishes]

I'm curious to know that too. :) What temp do you have to keep your SH at? I am seriously still debating doing a 30g SH tank. I have it ready to go. :D

I thought you already had a seahorse tank that was the same size as mine....

[erikharrison]

It was a saltwater tank, but not SH. I was going to make it one but I sold it to help aid in purchases for my 75! :)

[loans_n_fishes]

I am absolutely devestated! I lost almost all overnight. I am especially depressed that my largest baby didn't make it. He was a beautiful black and white striped one and was doing so well.

All of the peppermint shrimp died. I knew 3 were on their way out last night, so I removed them from the tank. Apparently, the 4th died as well. I am not sure whether the shrimp died because of the same factor that killed my babies, or if their deaths CAUSED my babies to die. I guess that will show me to mess with a good thing.

Before going to bed, the babies looked fine--swimming and eating. This morning they littered the bottom of the tank. My ammonia alert still says all is well. I wonder if it is a dud.
I was able to pull out 3 erectus/barb and 14 (I think--it's hard to count them) erectus/reidi. They are in a specimen container with water from my main horse tank and seem to be acting ok for now, but I don't have much faith that they will make it. GEEZ! I sure wish my big guy had made it!!!!

I am so depressed that I am not sure what I will be able to get done today. It's different when they die from something that is not within control, but to feel like I actually killed them myself is sickening.

[loans_n_fishes]

My computer crashed a few days ago and we will have to reload the camera software, but I will post pics as soon as I can.

Well I have as good of news as possible after this morning: All of the ones I rescued are alive and seem to be acting ok. (I have 3 barb cross and 15 reidi cross.) In fact, one of the little reidi is hitching with the barbs!

I suctioned all of the water/nasties out of the tank and put in clean water. I did not bleach or anything b/c that would defeat the purpose of my cycled tank. The algae is still on one side and ponies on other with hatchery on pony side (cleaned out hatchery and started new culture--should be swimming out in the morning). I took out the plastic plants and put in a sea fan skeleton for them to hitch. They can now choose to hitch high, low, or to either side. (It is a rather large sea fan.) I also "upped" the flow on the air pump to keep the water surface moving more.

After I filled the tank, I noticed that there were still some pods on the glass--though not as many as before of course. I added some live rotifers and frozen cyclopeez. I hope they are eating well. I am anxious to see the bbs swimming around and my horses bellies turning red and fat!

FYI: I am keeping salinity at 1.023-1.024, temp is around 76-77, light is on 24/7 to keep ph more stable. Still feeding 3x/day as stated earlier.

[loans_n_fishes]

Well, I lost the rest overnight. I was pretty sure this would happen. It seems that once they are stressed for some reason there isn't much to be done. I'm actually surprised they made it through the day yesterday. It's so depressing after having pretty good success for several weeks. We had a bit of a cold snap last night and the house temp dropped to around 70. I've been keeping the tank around 76-77. Could this have further stressed them? Maybe I should add a heater to the tank. I didn't think it would be necessary, but perhaps it is.

I am going to re-set up the tank as I had before and add a couple of cultures of pods to my algae side to make up for what was lost. A couple of days before the horses give birth, I will start the bbs culture. Should I treat the tank with something ahead of time to make sure there are no parasites that will get to them? I don't think I have had any problems with them so far, but I want to be as safe as possible. Maybe bomb the tank with meth. blue and/or formalin and then add biospira and pods to repopulate...or should I just leave as is? Will this kill the biological filter/ snails/ pods/ bbs?

Eventually, I want to try having a dsb on the algae side with snails and such to help with the mess. However, I will need to add a partial solid divider to keep the sand from migrating. My thought is that going as natural as possible may be beneficial. I had pretty good luck--til I messed with it! ARRGGH!

I was so worried about the water that I got rid of it almost immediately. My ammonia alert didn't say things were off, but it may not have been working--I really think it was an ammonia ****e that did them in. I will go get new test kits before the next batch. I didn't even think of having an O2 test kit. My airline is bubbling away--I wouldn't think it would be a problem. Not sure why I didn't think about quarantining the shrimp. :banghead: However, I didn't notice the horses acting like it was parasites. I just thought that the shrimp must have died from stress. I did not drip acclimate--floated, added water, floated, added water, floated, took out by hand and placed in tank.

I have been using Prime to get the water useable before adding it to the tank. I also added some directly to the tank yesterday, last night and the night before (after I realized three of the peppermints perished) to make sure the ammonia stayed in check. Do you think this could have affected anything??

[erikharrison]

Well something definitely caused the deaths! Why dont you just use water from the main tank, and then you only have to refill it there? You could easily change this water daily, and you would probably have to worry alot less. Not sure if it's allowed with SH but maybe put in a couple of micro hermits instead of the shrimp? If you can afford, try a Salifert test kit just to be sure. Also, If I remember correctly on your main tank, dont you use UV? That would be another pro to using your established water. I would speculate that the deaths of the shrimp could have been the culprit. It seems that this go round you have done a much better job with your setup, at least from what I have read thus far! Once you get a good healthy brood, Tab and I will come up there and purchase MANY, not a few, but alot! :)

[loans_n_fishes]

Baby Tank tweaking to be done:

Horse side:

BBS hatchery (adding eggs daily--egg casings and shrimp water do not get in tank water; shrimp swim up and out toward light)
Airline
Colorful fake coral hitches
Saran wrap floating on top to keep babies from sucking air


Algae side:

Plasic tub (like small rubbermaid/lunch container) with live "dsb" in it (will start with clean sand and add biospira to tank). Hopefully, this will give me the option of removing the sand while cleaning and/or treating the tank without disturbing the sand bed.
Nassarius snails (?)
Macro Algae
Bottle of pods
Mangrove in the sand bed (?)
Bag of charcoal
Bag of Purigen
Seasoned biowheel (filter wheel only)
Airline

I am going to try to get a couple of small clip on lights as well (one for each side) so I don't have the light strip right on top of the open tank. It makes me a little nervous as is. Lights will still be 24/7, but light over horse side will be off at night.

I will not be using a powerhead or filter because somehow some of them make it over to the other side and get sucked into it. Plus, when I have had it on in the past, many of them get suctioned to the divider!

Still plan to do feeding schedule as outlined before. Siphon bottom of tank daily and add new water to refill.

Thoughts??

[loans_n_fishes]

Ok--2 new batches of babies! Reidi born Nov 5 and Barb on Nov 6. Reidi--lost count..probably close to 100. Barb--7.

10 gallon tank is almost set up like I stated in the previous post; however, I have not yet bought a mangrove, bottle of pods or nassarius snails. The saran wrap wouldn't stay floating so I tossed it, and I have TWO Rubbermaid lunch tubs full of caribsea live sand (total of 10 pounds). Since there is less room on the horse side than the "filter" side, the bbs hatcher is on the algae side with the sand, etc. I still have my original light because I couldn't find any clip on lights. I am keeping it over the horses 24/7 in order to entice the bbs to them and keep ph more stable. I also used my water from the main tank to start up the baby tank. I'm not sure if this is wise or a mistake. On one hand, the water is "cycled"--on the other, it could possibly have some nasties like hydroids (though I have never seen any) that could hurt the babies. I guess we will have to wait and see.

Feeding rotifers 3x/day. BBS should hatch anytime now. Adding 1/2 capful of DTs to water everyday.

No losses yet. Hopefully, I will get this right this time.

[loans_n_fishes]

I will be going out of town to my grandmother's funeral on Saturday. What is your suggestion for the babies? I was considering being gone 2 nights. It is possible to narrow it to one if necessary.

Should I take the babies with me (smaller tank with airline and bbs hatcher), add an extra large amount of pods/rotifers to tank, or do I ask someone to feed them? I'm not sure if I can find someone to take care of them while I am gone, though.

[erikharrison]

Angela, so sorry for your loss!!!!!!!
I would't overfeed as it could cause a ****e in some way or another. I would hope that someone else could go by, preferrably someone with SH experience!

[loans_n_fishes]

Thanks for the condolences, Erik. It actually is a blessing that she passed on. It's been a rough year--I lost my father back in April. I was able to be with both of them when they died and I believe I was able to help them relax. The very end was rather peaceful for both of them. My mother is an absolute marvel--she lost both her husband and mother AND has been a caregiver (HUGE undertaking) for one or the other of them for the past 5 years. Although I am sure she is very sad to see them go, I know part of her must be relieved that she will not have to get up every hour or two every night, sleep in the recliner beside the bed, help lift and change adult diapers, and all of the other demanding duties previously required of her.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I'm still trying to decide whether I will pack 'em up to take with me, or add a culture of pods and extra bbs eggs to the hatchery. I would really rather not move them b/c of the risk of ammonia ****e or???

I still have all 7 of the barb/erectus, but have lost around 30 of the reidi/erectus. For some reason, many of them refuse to eat--however, I do have many that seem to be eating and alert. Perhaps the others are just weak fry?? All babies are being fed bbs and some rotifers. I am hatching eggs daily and there are always bbs in the water with them. None seem to be overeating and I am still supplementing DTs to the baby tank to feed any bbs that live longer than a few hours. A few of the reidi/erectus are hitching! I am not sure whether to be excited about this or not. Perhaps it is because they are weak and will soon perish--hanging on with all they have-- or maybe they are actually stronger than the rest. Who knows.

In the past, I have started Cyclopeez at the end of the first week for the barb cross, but I don't think I will start frozen until I return. It's just too easy to raise the ammonia that way.

[loans_n_fishes]

Well unfortunately I have lost the vast majority of the reidi cross. I think there are 4 or 5 left. :( I also lost one barb cross last night, but I think it was born with a defect. He swam in tight circles most of the time--though he did actually eat! Weird!

Anyway, still having some decent success with the barbs. I still haven't decided what to do when we go out of town today, though.

[Richard]

Don't worry too much about the fry. Whatever happens your seahorses will always be willing to pop out another batch for you to try your hand at raising. Family is always more important than this hobby.

Jeff gave me his adult male erectus not long ago and I put him in with my female erectus. I've been busy so I haven't done much more than toss ghost shrimp in the tank. Well the other day I took some time just to watch them and then I realized that Jeff's male erectus was actually a big reidi and pregnant already. So soon I'll get to try my hand at raising some erectus/reidi fry too :).

[loans_n_fishes]

Richard, let me know if your babies look more erectus or reidi. All of my babies tend to have their major characteristics from the mother.

All of my Reidi cross are gone, but that was expected. They have been very difficult and I haven't made the kind of progress with them that I have with the Barb cross.

Amazingly, 5 of my 6 barb/erectus are alive and growing! I added a huge clump of chaeto with lots of pods (wrapped it in bridal veil first) to the filter side of the tank before I left, added bbs eggs scheduled to hatch the following morning and swirled the cyclopeez around for them. I believe all of them are eating the cyclopeez! That makes things SO much easier.
My husband came back Saturday night, so they weren't really "without" (ie not actively fed) except for one full day. Stephen did a fantastic job keeping up with them. I am VERY impressed! I do need to do a water change today since I just got home last night.

Due for more babies this weekend--both papas!

[Richard]

Were your erectus/reidi fry pelagic or did they hitch right away?

[erikharrison]

lol, I am converting my tank today. :) Good to see you have some alive so that I may buy them. Time to read! :)

[loans_n_fishes]

Were your erectus/reidi fry pelagic or did they hitch right away?

They are very small and pelagic, unfortunately. However, if your female is erectus, maybe they will hitch. I am curious if they will favor the mother for you, too.

[loans_n_fishes]

lol, I am converting my tank today. :) Good to see you have some alive so that I may buy them. Time to read! :)

I had a feeling you would do that! LOL

[loans_n_fishes]

Just passed the dreaded week mark--5 alive and growing FAST!

Using cyclopeez 3x a day now. Still hatching bbs and pods are definitely breeding. Some of the rotifers may have formed a colony, too. I added 2 capfuls of DTs today to make sure the bugs got their vitamins.

I am not sure what the horses are eating the most of, but their little bellies are definitely filling up. Apparently, they are not eating constantly enough for the food to run through them without nutritional benefit. They appear active and healthy to me.

[loans_n_fishes]

Still have all 5. A few days ago I added 3 small nassarius snails to the baby side of the tank. They seem to help keep some of the mess off of the bottom of the tank. I really need a couple of biggies.

Water changes are being done by putting water from my main seahorse display into the baby tank and fresh water added to the display. I scoop the babies out of the tank with a ladle and put them in a specimen container (most of the water in the specimen container is water from the display). I then siphon all but maybe one inch of the tank water out. I siphon from the baby side only to keep the algae/sand in tact. Then I wipe the insides with a paper towel and rinse off the divider in tap water. Add the tank water then add the babies by pouring water from the specimen container and all back in the tank. Water changes are every 2 to 3 days.

Adding 2 capfuls of DTs a day (one on each side of the divider).

I'm not sure if they are eating the cyclopeez. Should I be concerned about that? They are definitely big enough. I do see them eating the bbs and pods though. If I am supplementing the bbs with DTs will the babies get enough nutrition? When should I get concerned about them not taking the cyclopeez?

The babies are getting much bigger and they are definitely not skinny. I am anxious to get pictures, but hubby hasn't had time to get the computer software together. Hopefully within the next day or so. They are black with white "spines". They look almost striped--it's cool!

[loans_n_fishes]

I added 1 large nass. snail yesterday. Although the bottom is not completely clean, they really do help keep things cleaner.

More reidi/erectus babies born a few minutes ago. LOTS!! I can never count these guys. They are so tiny, numerous and squirmy that I can't tell which ones I have counted and which I haven't. Again, probably somewhere in the 100 range. These guys have never lasted very long for me, but my tank has never been stocked so well with pods and bbs before either.

When I saw the papa starting to have contractions, I moved him over to the baby tank. It sure did help not to have to find and transfer all of them from the main tank. I am really glad that I am using the water from the main tank b/c there is no shock when moving them back and forth. I think it is really helping me to keep a cycled tank as opposed to keeping things completely sterile. I have yet to see the "big" guys (2 weeks old today!) scratch--knock on wood. All 5 babies going strong!

I still don't think the babies are eating cyclopeez. Should I start to worry? (As if I wasn't already!)

Think positive thoughts!

[loans_n_fishes]

All and I mean ALL the babies are alive! I can't believe it. :D I am sure some of the little reidi guys will drop soon, but all that I see have pink tummies and are swimming around happily. If I make it to the 6 day mark with no fatalities it will be quite an accomplishment!

I do seem to have a very strong copepod culture going on the algae/sand side. There aren't very many on the horse side, but I imagine they are coming over and being devoured on a regular basis. I am still adding a large scoop of bbs eggs to the hatcher every day along with 1-2 capfuls of DTs to the tank. Frozen cyclopeez is added 3x/day. I am still not sure if the larger horses are eating it. However, they do seem to be hunting on the bottom of the tank so they may be getting it after it has fallen.

[loans_n_fishes]

5 barbs going strong-- 3 weeks today! My biggest is about 1 1/4" long (if you stretched him out). The others are closer to 1". All are alert and happy--sometimes they play in the bubbles. It worried me the first couple of times, but it seems obvious to me now that they are playing. I saw one snick a piece of cyclopeez the other day. I haven't seen any of the others do it, but they do get more active when I add it. Hopefully, they are getting some.

LOTS of reidi-- 1 week today! I have upwards of 50-70. This may be pretty close to the original number. I know that I lost 3 for sure and one is staying at the surface a lot, so he is probably a goner. The snails could have made quick work of any others, BUT this is a HUGE success for me! I think a couple of them are snicking some of the smaller pieces of cyclopeez--amazing for such tiny little guys (they are probably about 1/4").

I did a water change yesterday (again, with the display tank water). I am actually doing water changes about 1/week. I know this is pretty far inbetween, but the snails and algae seem to keep things fairly clean and stable. I want to add some cerith snails for any small amounts of hair algae that develop on the filtering side. There isn't much, but still...

I know it is really day to day, but what is the next big hurdle?

Diet is the same as stated earlier. I plan to add shaved mysis to the diet at 5 weeks for my barbs; should I start this sooner since they are pretty big?

---Angela

[RayAllen]

Im really impressed by those of you that raise sea horses or baby saltwater fish. Ive had plenty of fresh water fish breed with sucsess, but saltwater is a totally diffrent/difficult spectrum. Congrats!

[loans_n_fishes]

Thanks! I don't think I will ever totally relax and think I am out of the woods, but it sure is nice to hit the difficult markers successfully.

My record was 1 barb/erectus at 5 weeks ---then the tank crashed. :( We'll see what happens this time.

I am going to buy some more rotifers today just to make sure the reidi are eating enough. I am toying with the idea of supplementing with vitamins. I am waiting to get more info from the seahorse.org website. Have any of you ever fortified with vitamins?

[loans_n_fishes]

AAAAA!!! I see a few hydroids on the side of the baby tank! No jellyfish looking ones...just the clear star looking things. what is the best way for me to rid the tank of them? Will I need to remove the horses/sand/snails/algae to treat?

I'm posting in emergency too.

[loans_n_fishes]

Ok...

Can I panacur my main baby set up and leave it basically as is? I really feel like this system is working for me...minus the droids. I was reading that my snails and live filter would probably survive the nuking of the droids.

None of the horses seem to be affected yet and I had not noticed them until just a moment ago--and I watch the tank like a hawk. Until I can get the panacur, I think I will scrape the little devils off the side of the tank.

I wonder if I added a uv system to my main tank, would the hydroids be killed out before they could be transferred over?

[loans_n_fishes]

Just wiped the ones I saw off the glass with a paper towel (only a few tiny ones--maybe 10?). I don't see any others swimming or attached to the glass. Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't any. I am really hesitant to mess with a system that seems to be pretty successful so far. I have never had good luck with meds, so I really would rather not treat. However, I know that it may be my only choice. :huh:

[loans_n_fishes]

I haven't seen any more hydroids, so at present, I am not treating the tank. I am scanning it every couple of hours in case there are any more.

All babies still alive! I think the reidi (some anyway) are taking the cyclopeez. Lots of pink bellies after I added it this morning. Also, the barbs seem to be taking it as well--and are growing like weeds. :)

So, do I go ahead and offer shaved mysis? Should I soak it in anything first (vitamins, garlic, zoecon, etc)?

[loans_n_fishes]

All 5 barbs are doing great! There are still 30-40 reidi babies. I haven’t seen any dead ones on the bottom, and am able to count them more easily now that they are bigger and darker. I am not sure how close to the original number I am, but it is quite a success to make it this far with so many of them. I will do another water change today using the display tank water.
I found a couple of small hydroids on the side of the tank again and wiped them off. I also ladled out 2 jellyfish looking ones. I may have to medicate the tank soon, but I am holding off as long as I can.
I will start offering shaved (cut up) frozen mysis next week for the older ones. I hope they take it.

[loans_n_fishes]

5 Barbs 4 weeks old today!
36 Reidi 2 weeks old today! (I counted when I moved them for a water change.)

Many/most of the reidi are taking the cyclopeez. I have 2 or 3 that are much bigger than the rest. I will start shaved mysis today for the barbs.

I will also add another airline to the tank. With these guys getting bigger and another batch or two probably on the way, I would imagine I need to up my oxygen levels. Correct?

[loans_n_fishes]

I promise I am working on the pictures. ;) Will take some tomorrow after the water change with the nicer camera. My other one only shows blurs. :angry: Anyway, I am still trying to learn how to use it...

Some of the reidi babies are hitching! In the past, this hasn't been a good sign, but these are the biggest and strongest of the group, so I think it is a good omen this time. This is the longest I have kept ANY of these guys alive for more than a week--much less 36 of them! I guess I will get another head count tomorrow. Hope they are all still around.

The barbs don't seem interested in the mysis, and I am still not sure how nuts they are about the cyclopeez. I know they are eating well so far because they are nice and plump, but should I do something nutrition-wise until they are on the mysis, or is cyclopeez, enriched brine, bbs, and copepods enough?

[fperkins]

Not sure if you were aware of his site, but Dan at http://www.seahorsesource.com/ is a very good resource for info for any seahorse breeder.

We do dwarfs. Need to get back to the others but may be a bit.

[loans_n_fishes]

Yes, I like Dan's site very much. I am told he has some beautiful horses.

Well, I did a water change and have 28 of the 36 reidi left. I hate that I lost some, but this is still quite an accomplishment for me. Most of them seem to be eating the cyclopeez now.

My 5 barbs are doing well. They are not taking the mysis yet, so I am going to try soaking it in garlic to see if they go for it.

Just had more reidi babies born this morning. I counted, 83 but I scooped up around 5 or so without counting them; so there are somewhere around 90!

Everyone is in the same 10 gallon tank--actually less than 1/2 of a 10 gallon tank with the divider. How soon is it going to be necessary to separate them up--when there are more horses than water? :D

Oh--I took some pictures and will try to post them later today. I am afraid they are fuzzy, but hopefully it will get the idea across.

[loans_n_fishes]

Barbs are 5 weeks

Reidi are 3 weeks

Newest batch is 2 days!

I have lost several of the smallest ones, but I still have all the barbs and all of the 3 week olds (I think).


Here are the pics... rather blurry, but hopefully you can make some out.

[loans_n_fishes]

more pics

[loans_n_fishes]

still more

[loans_n_fishes]

again with the pics! Getting sick of 'em yet??

[loans_n_fishes]

Tomorrow will be the 6 week mark for the barbs and 4 weeks for the reidi!

I actually lost one barb yesterday, but I don't know why. :( All 4 others seem to be fine.

I know I have at least 12 4 week old reidi. There may be more--they can hide pretty well; even in a nearly bare tank. All of these seem to be eating the cyclopeez and growing quickly. What do you think may be the reason for the continued die-off?

I only have around 5 of the youngest reidi left--they are now a week old. I am wondering whether they are just out competed for food?? I will set up my 65 gallon soon with lots of dividers for different batches. Hopefully they will be more likely to survive due to less competition for food.

The barbs are still not taking the mysis. I don't think they recognize them as food when they are chopped up. I soak them in garlic and add with the frozen bbs, and frozen cyclopeez 3x/day. Am I in trouble soon if they don't take it? Is there something that will keep them healthy until they are big enough to take them whole--if that is what happens, or will they not make it if they don't eat mysis by a certain time?

[loans_n_fishes]

Just did a water change:

4 Barbs

11 older Reidi

4 itty bitty Reidi

I am not sure why my newest batch failed to thrive. Also, not sure why I am still losing so many of my middle batch. The barb cross seem to be pretty stable, and most of the older reidi look robust, are hitching and taking cyclopeez along with frozen bbs.

Any ideas on the losses?

Due for more babies on Christmas day! (reidi cross)

[loans_n_fishes]

All of the smallest ones are gone, I lost 1 of the older reidi and 1 of the barb mix. Everyone else looks good (I think). The barbs are still not taking the mysis.

I put the daddy of the reidi mix in with the babies to give birth. I thought he was having contractions yesterday, but no fry yet.

[loans_n_fishes]

My male erectus that pairs with the reidi female has babies almost every 2 weeks. My erectus male that pairs with the barb female usually has babies every 3 weeks or so. However, he has not given birth since this last brood (7 weeks) and doesn't appear to be pregnant. They are fed Hikari mysis twice per day and appear very healthy.

The daddy of the reidi cross babies has still not given birth. He looks like he could pop any minute and is in the baby tank.

I am down to 2 of my erectus/barb babies. :( The last one that died suddenly had some convulsions and fell to the bottom of the tank. They are now 7 weeks old. It is pretty amazing that I have raised them for this long, but I don't know what is going on. The babies are not eating the mysis yet, but are still eating frozen cyclopeez, frozen enriched bbs, and freshly hatched bbs. Would they be dying from lack of nutrition? They seem to be plump, alert and active and then all of a sudden, I lose one.

I haven't seen any more hydroids on the glass or in the water column, but they may be there. That is my best guess at what is happening. I suppose I will go ahead and treat the tank. I REALLY hate medications for fish; they seem to cause more harm than good for me. As I understand, it will not affect my live sand/ biofilter, macro algae, or pods?? However, I should remove my snails? Can I put the snails back in after treatment? I know that there are a few bristle worms present in the algae that I assume will die. How should I stay on top of the ammonia without diluting the treatment? I have Prime that I add to any fresh water when I do a water change. I also add a little every couple of days just to be on the safe side. I am not sure if it will hurt to add this more often. Should I set up another tank for the babies until the treatment is complete? How long should I leave the babies out of the tank--if at all? Will this kill my babies--perhaps any that may already be weak?

I am really concerned about the loss at this late stage when everything seemed to be going so well.

[erikharrison]

try injecting them with kalkwasser. It's probably cheaper, and will be less chaotic on your tank's inhabitants.

[loans_n_fishes]

I don't see any, though. However, if I did, it would probably be the tiny jellyfish looking ones, so there is no way I could inject them. As I understand, Panacur is the only thing that works on hydroids. Anyone know a place in Austin that carries it?

[erikharrison]

I would definitely try to indentify ifthat is your problem first before taking any drastic measures. A flashlight at night and some long peering at rocks should help you to be able to tell.

[loans_n_fishes]

Well, I moved the daddy back over to the main tank last night. He seemed depressed in the small tank--had changed color and wasn't swimming around much. Of course, he gave birth last night! :huh: I got downstairs a little later than normal and saw that his pouch was flat, but no babies anywhere!! He usually has around 100 babies each time and his pouch had been rather large. One of my seahorses was close to the top and seemed to be in hunting mode, though I am not sure. I have never seen my horses go after the babies, but I guess anything is possible. :angry: I kept searching and found 6 in the tank caught in some algae. Although I have sponges covering the intakes of my filter and powerhead, I decided to dismantle the filter to search for possible survivors. (I have learned that these babies can make it into just about any opening.) Well, I found more survivors in there. I know I have a total of at least 21 that are alive. Five or Six I am not sure about whether they are functioning normally. What do you think are the possibilities that my seahorse (that happens to be their mother :( ) ate the babies. I am sure the pump must have claimed several, but I can't imagine all of them being sucked up. They are now in a specimen container with an airline until I clean the baby tank later on today. Should I put the newborns in with the 5 and 7 week olds? I have several errands I HAVE to run today, but I will try to get the stand to my new tank painted and the tank bleached and vinegared and tested for leaks in the next day or two. It is a 65 gallon (as I said before) and I will be putting a divider in it. The larger horses will go in this tank. I plan to keep the 10 gallon baby tank running for any infants (0 to 4 weeks) that I have.

[erikharrison]

What size tanks are you using (all)? I got the 47 main, 65 and 10... I think alot of the troubles that you have been having could be due to swinging parameters.... A remote deep sand bed should help you greatly in stabilization....

[loans_n_fishes]

No swinging parameters. Main tank water is used in baby tank. Fresh saltwater added to main tank. Parameters checked before water changes (including temp) to make sure all is same. 65 gallon not in play yet. 10 gallon baby tank has 2 rubbermaid containers full of live sand (sterile live sand bought in bag) 10 lbs total.

Everything "seems" to be fine. I have made it 7 weeks with barbs and 5 weeks with reidi. I'm not sure why some are dying now. The only 2 possibilities that come to my mind are a) nutrition and b) hydroids. However, I don't see any hydroids and the babies appear fat and active. I have not had any more deaths since I last reported. Weird!!

[loans_n_fishes]

Here is a response I received on seahorse.org. I thought it was worth sharing:

Well I would probably bet on the hydroids being the problem. If they're eating the frozen cyclops-eeze then I would think their nutrition is probably fine. The cyclops-eeze are very nutritious. I also wouldn't worry about the mysis thing yet either. My ones that are taking frozen are almost 7 weeks and only a few are interested in the mysis. The rest are chowing down on the cyclopseeze. I would just make sure that you're shaving it really fine and continue to offer it at the same time as the cyclops-eeze.

I can guarantee that there are hydroids in there if you're using water from your main tank. Unless you started everything in your main tank from dead material and freshwater dipped everything before it went (and even still there is a strong possibility that there are some in there) then you have hydroids.

If it were me (I'm not an expert here, but trying to help) I would treat the tank with panacur and stop using water from the main tank as water changes. Yeah you're probably going to kill some of the stuff in there like the bristle worms. That probably will cause an ammonia ****e, so I would probably remove the fry for a few days.

IIRC nassarius snails are pretty much the only ones that will survive a panacur treatment. I would not remove the snails because when you put them back you will probably just transfer hydroids right back into the tank.

If you have hearty macros, they will probably make it too. If you use a low dose of panacur then your bio filter should be fine.

I think before adding the fry back it would be a good idea to freshwater dip them. I think that's OK with fry, but I haven't do this yet with mine. Maybe a pro can confirm that.

Like I said I'm no pro. I'm pretty new to the fry keeping too. This is just the direction I would probably head in. I hope this helps and maybe a pro will be around to tell you if what i said was totally wrong.
----------------------------------------------

My response:

eeamoe, I think you have some good advice. I will panacur very soon. Where can I find Panacur? I didn't see any on DanU's site and haven't found any at my LFS.

Would it be worth a shot to drain the baby tank, bleach it, then put the sand, etc back in and fill with fresh saltwater? I imagine the sand, etc would have hydroids and would just reintroduce them?

I would rather not risk the fresh water dip. Can I treat the tank with the babies in it safely? After treatment, do I bleach the tank or just do a massive water change?

The deaths have not coincided with new fry. I have not seen any hydroids in the main display; however, I did have a few on the glass in the baby tank a few weeks ago. There were around 10 or less. I wiped them off the glass and have not seen any since.

I just got a new UV sterilizer for my main display. Will this kill hydroids?

Since I have the live sand, rock, and algae in the baby tank, will it stay cycled with a 100% water change with fresh saltwater?

When new babies are born, will they continue to bring over hydroids (assuming this is the problem)? Even if I move the daddy to the baby tank prior to giving birth, wouldn't he bring them over, too? How do I stop the cycle? Will I have to treat my display??

[erikharrison]

I just don't think that beacuse you use water from the main tank that hydroids have to be in there. Maybe you could use a coffe filter when putting water from the tank in? You could dry out a bunch of sand and LR and start completely fresh. I know they don't recommend LR because of droids and other larger amphis, but if you cook it all you could probably fashion some kind of sump which would ensure that you would not have to change the water so much. This could possibly be stressing the fry as well. I read around at some of the blogs on SH.org and it seems to be very hard to keep them alive anyway!

[loans_n_fishes]

It's an interesting suggestion for the coffee filter. I will run it past people at the org as well to see if they also think it could keep hydroids out.

Since I saw hydroids in the baby tank several weeks ago, I think it is likely that I still have some after seeing the sudden death of some of my biggest horses. I feel that I got past most of the hurdles with these guys. The only thing left was getting them on mysis and keeping everything else status quo.

The only thing with starting completely over is...it is starting completely over. The tank would have to cycle again, etc. If I can keep my cycled tank, it would really make things easier. I am keeping the filter section in the same tank. I have found that any drains, pumps, filters and the like ALWAYS wind up sucking up some babies! :( My algae is wrapped in bridal veil, so no amphipods are escaping.

I actually don't change the water all that often. Once a week is generally what I have been doing. I assumed that since I have been using the main tank water each time, it has kept stress to a minimum. That is, I haven't seen any stress from water changes.

It is definitely a challenge to keep these guys. I am proud of myself so far--especially keeping the reidi mix for over 5 weeks! They are REALLY difficult. Other than this new development, things have gone pretty well. Hopefully, I will be able to remedy the situation and have more success.

I have learned that raising seahorses is kind of like raising children: You can read all of the information you can get your hands on, but you are never certain of what will work with YOUR babies! :D There is definitely a learning curve. The more tweaking that I do, the better things seem to go.

[erikharrison]

Yeah, as you can tell, I like this thread. :) Coffe filters won't leach any garbage into the water either since they are food grade. Is it possible that there are dyes or anything in that bridal veil material? It possibly could have leached into the tank giving you all of those problems in the beginning?

[loans_n_fishes]

Another post from seahorse.org worth viewing:


QUOTE(barbaloot @ Dec 28 2007, 08:36 AM)
eeamoe, I think you have some good advice. I will panacur very soon. Where can I find Panacur? I didn't see any on DanU's site and haven't found any at my LFS.

Dan carries Fenbendazole/Panacur in both granulated and liquid form. The liquid form is easier to work with.
http://www.seahorsesource.com/cgi-bin/shop...l.cgi?id=300101

I would advise against treating the adult's display tank with the medication unless you don't mind risking your snails and any other invertebrates that may be present. The medication can also linger in the rock, sand, and equipment making the display inhospitable to inverts for quite sometime following treatment.




QUOTE(barbaloot @ Dec 28 2007, 08:36 AM)
Would it be worth a shot to drain the baby tank, bleach it, then put the sand, etc back in and fill with fresh saltwater? I imagine the sand, etc would have hydroids and would just reintroduce them? When new babies are born, will they continue to bring over hydroids (assuming this is the problem)? Even if I move the daddy to the baby tank prior to giving birth, wouldn't he bring them over, too? How do I stop the cycle? Will I have to treat my display??

As long as you use water from the adult's main display tank you will reintroduce hydroids into the nusery. Using water from the main display introduces many potentially harmful microscopic organisms — such as hydroids, ciliates and bacteria — into the nusery tank.




QUOTE(barbaloot @ Dec 28 2007, 08:36 AM)
I would rather not risk the fresh water dip. Can I treat the tank with the babies in it safely? After treatment, do I bleach the tank or just do a massive water change?

You can use Fenbendazole/Panacur in the fry tanks with the fry present. As long as it is properly dosed it will have no ill effect on the fry. Are there inverts in your fry tank?




QUOTE(barbaloot @ Dec 28 2007, 08:36 AM)
I just got a new UV sterilizer for my main display. Will this kill hydroids?

The UV will only kill hydroids in their free-swimming stage and only if they happen to go through it. The following link will take you to a generalized diagram of the lifecycle of a hydroid. http://www.palaeos.com/Invertebrates/Cnida...belia_cycle.gif




QUOTE(barbaloot @ Dec 28 2007, 08:36 AM)
Since I have the live sand, rock, and algae in the baby tank, will it stay cycled with a 100% water change with fresh saltwater?

Yes. Nitrifying bacteria live on surfaces rather than in the water column. As long as there is an ammonia source such as fry waste, present in the tank, the bacteria will survive and the tank will remain "cycled".

[loans_n_fishes]

Here is my newly revised plan:

Set up the 65 gallon with fresh saltwater, sterile live sand (in tubs again for easy cleaning), dry base rock (make my own aragocrete), macro algae that has been freshwater dipped.

Add biospira and a purchased culture of pods.

Sponge filter plus other airlines if needed. Divider (horses on "bare" side again) and colorful fake coral hitches.

I will put my older horses in this tank before treating the 10 gallon baby tank with panacur. I know it is taking a risk of spreading the hydroids, but I really think there are only a few present in the baby tank (if that is the problem at all--I'm still not convinced in any one direction) and the likelyhood of them being on the surviving babies would be slim to none. After moving the babies, I will bomb the baby tank (10 gallon) with panacur, do a water change at the end of the treatment and add a package of biospira. This should get the tank ready for the next batch. If I add a culture of pods afterwards, will they survive?

From now on:

1) Use only freshly mixed saltwater (no "cycled" tank water)
2) Use only materials that have never been exposed to another tank
3) Use 10 gallon panacured tank for newborns (0-5 weeks)
4) Try to move pregnant male to baby tank shortly before giving birth
5) Keep a strong culture of pods going in tanks at all times

---------------------------------------

Update:

Water change today--only freshly made sw. Herd consists of 2 Barb cross (7 weeks old), 8 Reidi cross (5 weeks old), 14 Reidi cross (2 days old).
I have the newborns in a breeding net thingy hanging on the side of the tank. I would say the holes are only slightly bigger than that in cheesecloth. This seems to be working well to keep them from getting into things they shouldn't (a play pen--if you will), and it is much easier to feed them without competition from the other horses. Also, the water flow seems to be good. However, most of them do not look too healthy. I think going through the filter and getting caught in the algae may have added stress that is taking a toll. Also, I don't believe I have the same strong copepod population I did when starting out the other reidi cross group. I believe being able to eat at anytime around the clock either freshly hatched bbs, live copepods (enriched daily with DT's), refrigerated rotifers, frozen rotifers, and frozen bbs gave them the best chance at survival. By the way things look, I don't expect this batch to make it. :( I should have another batch in 2-3 weeks though. My lovers were at it again this morning. :wub:

I've had pretty good success so far. Hopefully, the revisions will make it fool proof (yeah, right!!). :hysterical: