LE or not??

[thedude]

All,

What is your definition of LE?

To me, a LE coral means that it comes with a history; it has a great growth and color and has been in the hobby for a relatively long period of time. Tyree's corals are expensive for a reason, they are beautiful and adapted to tank life.

I personally think that if a coral looks like its LE counterpart, it should be listed as so (LE look-a-like) and that the true LE coral should reflect a higher price.

Am I crazy or is this what ya'll are looking for as well?

John

[MissT]

I agree with you on that, and I also think that just because something is expensive, it shouldn't be considered LE... only if it's hard to get. LIMITED means there aren't very many and it gets annoying to hear people try to pitch their frags as LE when a lot of times it's expensive but not all that rare.

[josephatmbimortgage]

Well think of it this way. If someone bought a LE 2 yrs ago and grow it out to sell to fellow reefers for better price and larger piece to help the hobby. Does that make the LE not an LE anymore :shades: ? LE is the name it's given for it's unique nature and coloration.Some people want to support the hobby and do want to help people that can't afford the high prices by selling it less than online.

-Joseph

[apedroza]

Also take into account that even though it comes from LE stock, corals and zoas in particular change from tank to tank. Lighting, and chemical composition vary from tank to tank. It's difficult to confirm that the piece you get is LE, you just have to take the person at their word.

[C.Mydas]

Well think of it this way. If someone bought a LE 2 yrs ago and grow it out to sell to fellow reefers for better price and larger piece to help the hobby. Does that make the LE not an LE anymore :shades: ? LE is the name it's given for it's unique nature and coloration.Some people want to support the hobby and do want to help people that can't afford the high prices by selling it less than online.

-Joseph
No, if someone bought an LE and grows it out it is still an LE. If someone goes to a fish store and buys a coral that looks like and LE it is a Look-a-like.

Cheaper prices are certainly appreciated, but if someone buys a look-a-like as an LE then every frag he sells will also be 'counterfeit' and he doesn't even know it! On top of that now you have ring of people buying and selling these frags at LE prices when they are NOT LE's so everyone is getting ripped off...except the sellers of course.

Most the time look-a-likes are still beautiful, just not the LE's. Kinda like Foakley's...lol. How'd you feel if you paid for Oakleys and got Foakleys?

[apedroza]

Foakleys!!!! LOL!!!!

[hobogato]

i have never been one to care much about LE named corals, but honesty is important. i have some colonies in my tank that look EXACTLY like known LE colonies in my tank but i do not sell frags of them as the LE coral. it is just a matter of honesty. I know people who sell non LE corals as the LE corals they look like. not only will i not buy those corals, but i will not buy ANYTHING from those people.


Some people want to support the hobby and do want to help people that can't afford the high prices by selling it less than online.
i truly believe that no price is too high if you can find someone willing to pay it (i dont ever test this belief). however, those who pay that price (or any) better be getting what they pay for, or mr karma will be coming around :)

if someone sells a frag worth $10 for $30 because they stick an erroneous LE name with it, it is still dishonest - even if it would have been a bargain for the true LE coral!

[stephencraig]

OK, I'm a little confused here. If a coral is an "LE", "ATL", or "PPE", and is bought, and then fragged by the new owner and sold, and then the second owner frags it and sells it, then is it still considered an "LE", "ATL", or "PPE"?

I put these as a group for a reason. Either the rule stands for ALL of then, or NONE of them. Also, is "ATL" trademarked? I would really love to see the legal documentation on that if they say it is, since "ATL" is also a common abbreviation for Atlanta.

There just seems to be a huge amount of inconsistency here from what I can see and what I have seen posted in the past on this site.

I have a frag of Oregon Blue Tort I bought from Upscales.com that is supposedly from the original mother colony. If I sometime, down the road, I decide to frag it and advertise it as being from the original mother colony of Oregon Blue Tort, does that mean I am engaged in false advertisement?

If not, then how can calling something an ATL that came from that particlar business (as opposed to Atlantic Aquarium, Atlantic Coral Enterprise, and numerous others that refer to THEIR corals and themselves as ATL) be any different?I

Is "ATL", whom apparently are so offended, even a current MAAST sponsor?

I'm really interested in any responses here.

Stephen

[apedroza]

If in fact you know it came from the original colony or directly from ATL you can call it ATL or LE whatever, because you know the direct lineage of the coral (i.e Blane Perums PPE's) The problem is from people getting a piece of coral, without truly knowing it's origins, and calling it LE, ATL, etc. because it happens to resemble a specific piece. They then decide to sell it at the higher price of LE frags.

[hobogato]

actually, i think the issue here is one of honesty. this thread is questioning those who call a coral LE (or any other specific name, ie paletta, tyree, roab etc) when they are in fact corals bought at an lfs that simply resemble (and sometimes not very closely) one of those named corals. prime example:

i have a coral that i got at a store in corpus that is just a tricolor (i have been calling it a valida). several people have told me it looks like a Larry Jackson tricolor and the $10 for a 2" frag that i charged was way too cheap. i was given a true Larry Jackson from someone who traced the lineage. it looks the same. to me, if i sell frags of my trycolor for $30 an inch and call it a Larry Jackson Tricolor it would be wrong. period. it think that is the point that the dude was trying to make. (john, please correct me if i am wrong)

it is no different than paying $500 for an AKC registered dog and finding out the registration is not valid. a fraud is a fraud is a fraud.

is it a better dog because it is registered? maybe, but if i pay for it, i expect it.

is it a better coral because it is named? actually sometimes yes. a wild coral that just resembles a named coral has not been in captivity for long and may not be as hardy as a true aquaculture coral.

[stephencraig]

Is this the issue then?

That in fact it is known that is was not, or never came from ATL, LE, or ORA, and that it was being called an ATL, LE, or ORA AND being sold at a higher price under that representation?

Just trying to get the facts straight here.

Stephen

[hobogato]

from what i have been told, that is what has been happening.

[greenmako]

Is this the issue then?

That in fact it is known that is was not, or never came from ATL, LE, or ORA, and that it was being called an ATL, LE, or ORA AND being sold at a higher price under that representation?

Just trying to get the facts straight here.

Stephen

This is exactly the issue.

[stephencraig]

I completely agree. The thing that has made this hobby great for me is for the most part everyone has been so honest and so helpful. I certainly hope it continues to be that way, and I for one would be upset if I paid top dollar for a coral that was supposed to be an LE, and it turned out it wasn't.

Stephen

[caferacermike]

and I for one would be upset if I paid top dollar for a coral that was supposed to be an LE, and it turned out it wasn't.

Stephen


And I would be just as upset to buy a frag from someone at a reduced price, advertised as LE and it wasn't.

It is possible for me to walk into Aquatek and beg Bruce to sell me a $50 colony at a reduced rate, then come home and break it into pieces. It is then further possible to go online and find a coral from ATL that looks like what I bought. It is possible for me to sell it as that coral. Problem is that is not a good way to do business. Especially when you've been asked numerous times to cease and desist with the dishonesty.

It's one thing if you really have some LE corals valued to you at hundreds of dollars, it's another to shop around at all the local shops and then resell your frags as something else. The average guy does not come across deals like this ever week and it becomes ever transparent when it happens. Ok I realize the seller thinks he is doing everyone a favor (even though it isn't) by advertising "LE" corals at reduced prices. What in fact is happening is that he is preying upon unsuspecting new comers to the site. What a bad taste that could leave once the new comer figures out they were ripped off. Sure they may have gotten a nice frag for $25 but hey the whole colony could have been bought at any local store for $25, that is a scam. It is also a scam when the poster advertises a coral as being from their mother colony etc... This implies the coral has been acclimated to tank life and should do well in your tank, when in fact the coral was bought a day ago, broken up and subjected to numerous stresses and may not make it at all.

[thedude]

Ya'll pretty much hit the nail on the head with several points on this thread.

I would like to clarify that it is all about lineage. If you buy a coral (let's take Stephen's example of an OBT) and know exactly the source of that coral, (in this case, the OBT originated at Upscales, Tyree got a piece of it from there) you have a true LE coral and aren't misrepresenting it by posting as so.

Now, if you buy a coral at a LFS and it LOOKS like an OBT, posting that it is in fact a part of the history of that coral is wrong. I'll be the first to say that if you have anything that even remotely resembles an OBT, you have a beautiful coral, but it does not have the history of the real piece.

You can also trace a coral through people and when you spend big $$$ on a "LE" coral you should be asking where it came from. For instance, when I had an OBT I got my fragment from Clint. Clint got his "frag" (and I use the term frag lightly here, it was a mini colony) from Yikan, who got it from Tyree.

John

[Sherri]

It would be OK to state "it LOOKS like" a particular LE....but it isn't. Many would be just happy to have something that looks like it - it is beautiful also...it just isn't misrepresented...which is what this is all about. Honesty. Period.

[Richard]

I just view it as a method of branding to increase the percieved value of a coral. The only actual difference/benefit between an LE or otherwise branded coral is that it is presumably adapted to life in an aquarium and should therefore be hardier and easier to maintain/obtain the original coloration.

I don't view it as any more or less dishonest than some buying a good size colony at an LFS for $40 and within a short time chopping it up and selling 1 inch frags of it for $15-20. Even without branding the frags there is still the implication that they are frags from a coral that has survived/thrived in the persons tank for a longer period of time. This practice occurs all of the time on maast. Of course it would be a tougher sell if people actually said "I just bought this colony a week ago for $40 and now I have chopped it up into 20 little frags. Come on over and buy them for $15 a piece."

[apedroza]

This hobby has allowed me to meet several people who enjoy alot of the same things I do. I have purchased, traded, and sold many frags with alot of you. Not only have you made this hobby more affordable for me (and hopefully I have done the same for you) but I have also learned alot. I ty to be as honest and generous as I can and pass along some of the things I have. When I sell coral I estimate size and #of polyps for a fair price and 90% of the time people get more. I would never think of cheating someone who may be in the same boat I once was not really knowing what I was getting. I ave several LE acrcos , zoas etc that I don't even remember what they are, so I don;t even sell them as LE. Lets all try to be honest and fair and in the end everyone will be better for it.

[RayAllen]

Im not in the hobby to make a buck; im in the hobby to enjoy it. I prefer to trade any day; nothing against the guy that wants to sale a single polyp for $40 but to me its insane becasue id never charge a fellow maastard/hobbiest that price no matter what coral or the quality. Several people realize how much you can sale some of these corals for and try to make it a buisness; and thats when it stops being a hobby. Thank you very much to those in the hobby that do provide affordable frags and equipment to us in the hobby :) I truely would not be where I am in the hobby with out you. And also the priceless information/knowledge Maast provides.

[SoLiD]

I for one have spent thousands of dollars on LE corals. I'd be angry to find out if I was cheated by someone that was just trying to make a quick buck at my expense. That's why people should really start asking for lineage on any LE corals they have and keep a log if it whether they plan on selling it or not. I for one do have such a log. That would also solve other issuses for some pests like acro eating flat worms and red bugs. Also, if some one sold you bogus stuff and you are dead sure of it. Take it up with them and work it out. If it doesn't get taken care of post it in the Vendor & Product Experiences Forum. The only way to make these types of scams are less and less is to shut out the counterfitters with some bad feed back like on Ebay. And if too many people are complaining about that one such company or person(s), they will have to eventually stop. -SoLiD

[J_G]

All the time in this hobby I get corals that people call certain things as signature corals. Big name stuff is really hard if not impossible to prove. Once it leaves the hands of Steve, Blane, Mike, etc there is no way to know. Ive had frags (on rocks) fall in my tank or my big hippo tang moves one from one side of the tank to the other and I cant find it anymore and one day 5 months later a new coral appears in my tank and I "know" or maybe not that it was the coral I lost some months earlier. This is where "lineage" gets the shaft. Im sure this has happened to several people. Its probably not common but just getting out there that lineage is extremely hard to prove in alot of cases. Lineage doesnt mean a particular coral type necessarily but rather who owned this coral. When Mike Paletta got his blue tenuis there were probably 1000 (or 10,000) more colonies of the same coral distributed from that region and he just ended up with one of em. We must be careful and not knowingly change names to better our income or to make our tanks sound better. I just spent over $1000 several weeks ago with Ming at ATL (I purchased True Leng Sy, True superman monti, Incredible hulk, bloody mary cap, Steve Tyree's purple unknown, Shades of Fall, True Pink Lemonade, Raspberry lemonade, ATL hypnotic blue Latistella, superman digi, and Krypto acro) and I wouldnt want anyone coming in behind me saying they have what I have and you can buy their stuff cheaper when ,in fact, lineage hasnt been proven on the other side. This is a very delicate hobby and we must treat it as such.

-John