Seahorse Baby Rearing Log (First attempt) Barb/Erectus Mix!

[loans_n_fishes]

Considering this is my first attempt, I do not expect any of my babies to survive, but it sure would be a pleasant surprise. I posted on seahorse.org starting yesterday, so I will just copy that here and move forward.

Yesterday 8/14/2007:

My erectus male popped on the 12th. I believe he must have mated with the barb since the babies are hitching. I didn't realize horses of different species would mate...until he had erectus/reidi babies in May (they did not hitch)!! This is my first REAL attempt. I wanted to try my hand at the last batch, but we were going to the Bahamas 2 days later. I couldn't find anyone to take them off my hands, so I loaded up the main system with copepods, covered the intakes and added frozen bbs to my seahorses food for my caregiver to feed. Needless to say, they didn't make it--but I gave it my best shot considering the circumstances.

I actually wonder whether my male erectus is a combo of erectus and barb. His snout is much longer than my other erectus, and he has one stripe on his snout...I'm so confused!

In my tank, I have 2 erectus (I thought one male and one female, but I believe the "female" is actually a male. I guess that's why he never showed much interest in "her"), one reidi female and one barb female. My manly male erectus seems to like both girls. :skeezy

Anyway, I have 10 fry that hitch and look rather pointy :D . I was surprised at the low number. Last time he had a small brood of 30 erectus/reidi. Maybe he is having small broods because he is still fairly small himself??

The fry are in a 10 gallon tank with an air pump/ airstone and fake plants for hitching. I move them into a specimen container to feed so they can get the food easier. Plus, it keeps the tank cleaner. I have been giving them live rotifers and frozen bbs. I believe they are eating both.

Is there something I should do differently since they are a mix? All 10 are alive and appear to be thriving--so far. What do you think my chances are of raising these? Has anyone else had a mixed breed like this?

How far apart do you space feedings? What amount of food am I trying to give them? Do I try to make the water in the container cloudy with food? I don't want to waste any food, and I certainly don't want them to overeat or starve.

Thanks all! Wish me luck!
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8/15/2007


I'm still feeding them frozen bbs and live rotifers (refrigerated bottle). I will start spacing the feedings 4 hours apart and allow them to eat for 30 min per feeding. I'm going to start switching from mostly rotifers and some bbs to bbs and some rotifers. I'm still not sure how much food to give. There is always some left on the bottom of the container, so I guess they are getting their fill.

This morning I came down to find that my air pump had vibrated itself off the stand and had pulled the airline out with it! :angry I'm not sure how long they had been without air. I have added longer tubing and set the *&())*^*^ thing on the floor to avoid this happening again. They all seem to be alive--though I think one may be on its way out. :(

I think a couple of them may be scratching, but I am not sure. I added some Prime to the water and have moved them to their feeding container with the bbs and rotifer fare for 30 min. I also took a biowheel out of one of my filters and am floating it in the water to help keep it more stable. I didn't want to add live rock because I was afraid there would be a greater chance of bringing over nasties. I need to get a new ammonia test kit and more salt today. Plus, I may add a little biospira or something to boost the system. I am hoping the problem (scratching) is ammonia or air related b/c I can fix those pretty easily. I REALLY hate medicating fish! It never seems to go in my favor.

What do you all think of putting a uv sterilizer on a baby tank? I am getting one for my main display, but maybe I will hook it up to the babies first? :confused:

[loans_n_fishes]

8/15/07 continued...

All 10 seahorses are still alive! :)

I was surprised that the seahorses would eat the frozen bbs! Most (if not all) are eating it--go figure. I am starting to feed the frozen bbs for the 1st 15 min, and then add the rotifers for the last 15 min. I'm starting a 4 hour feeding schedule as recommended on seahorse.org. I am trying for mostly bbs with some rotifers by the end of the first week. I do plan to go ahead and get some bbs cultures going soon to be on the safe side. My LFSes were out a couple of days ago.

If they do continue to chow down on the frozen bbs, should I continue with frozen enriched brine and cyclopeez later and ultimately mysis, or should I switch to live for a while?

[Richard]

I would not do just frozen bbs. Maybe stick with a mix of frozen and live (enriched). If they take to cyclopeeze that would be good. Careful with the frozen so that you don't foul the water with uneaten frozen bbs.

You may want to try and get some copepod cultures going. You will never be able to grow enough of them to feed just that but if you can supplement with pods then you'll get much faster growth rates. One research paper I read showed 40% faster growth on copepods vs bbs. Seahorse source has calaniod (pelagic) and harpactoid (benthic) pods cultures. Calanoids are best but more difficult to culture. I don't think I would actually pay for benthic pods since you can get them from any reef tank fuge. Tigger pods would be good also once they are big enough. Check with Diane_B on the org. She has been real successful in culturing tiggers.

[Richard]

That same paper showed a much higher survival rate using uv as well. If you hook up a uv you need to be real sure they won't get sucked into it. Little fry WILL find a way to get sucked into almost any pump even if it is protected so I'm not sure of a really good way to do it short of having a sump type system.

[loans_n_fishes]

Richard, how do you recommend setting up the copepod cultures and feeding out? I am sure I have some in my tanks, but not sure how to harvest them for the little buggers! Should I be worried about bringing in parasites from the display tanks? Can I just add a wad of chaeto with a bunch of copepods from an established tank? Perhaps I could wrap the algae in bridal veil to keep the seahorses from getting caught in it. Do you think they are too small for cyclopeez now?

So.. right now, focus on my live rotifers, supplementing live enriched bbs with my frozen bbs and starting a copepod culture--I assume in the tank?

What do you think of those brine shrimp hatcheries that hang in the tank and automatically release the shrimp? Can you set them up to release only bbs and then only day old, etc? Do I just add supplements to the hatchery for them to consume?

Thanks for all of your help!

[erikharrison]

That same paper showed a much higher survival rate using uv as well. If you hook up a uv you need to be real sure they won't get sucked into it. Little fry WILL find a way to get sucked into almost any pump even if it is protected so I'm not sure of a really good way to do it short of having a sump type system.
If you can find some screen that will fit the footprint of the tank, maybe you could secure it down in the water enough to keep the pump that would power the UV above it. I'm just brainstorming aloud.

[loans_n_fishes]

I wonder if it would work to wrap the intake in cheesecloth?? Maybe the cheesecloth would just clog the intake?? Not sure I want to risk it.

[erikharrison]

Thats why I suggested screening of some sort. You can put the screen across the entire tank rather than just trying to block an intake. You wont be restricting any flow this way.

[loans_n_fishes]

yeah, that sounds like a good idea. We were typing at the same time. :P

[Richard]

Search seahorse.org for various copepod culturing techniques. I think they have a decent article in the library also. The benthic pods you would get from a fuge you could give phytoplankon and also a little flake food. Most are using 2 liter soda bottles as there cultures with just an airline to keep it bubbling. Also most have said they have an easier time using live phyto (either your own culture or something like dt's or live phytofeast). The dead phyto like phytoplex they have more problems with water quality and the cultures crashing.

Yeah, you do need to worry about transfering pathogens from a reef tank. I would get the pods going seperately so there would be time for any pathogens to die off (no fish host). There is always the risk of transfering bacteria that may become pathogenic to the fry but honestly if your reef tank is in the same house the bacteria will probably find there way there so not much you can do about them.

The problem with the screening is they still get stuck to it. They are stupid. I had some fry from bstreep get stuck in very fine fish netting that I put around a bubble filter (barely any current/suction there). I would have never guessed that they could have gotten stuck in it.



What do you think of those brine shrimp hatcheries that hang in the tank and automatically release the shrimp? Can you set them up to release only bbs and then only day old, etc? Do I just add supplements to the hatchery for them to consume


I've never seen them. That sounds interesting but I don't think I would try them. There will be loads of bacteria in the bbs water and it sound like you would be dumping them in the tank to. Better to harvest and rinse them IMO.

[loans_n_fishes]

Wouldn't the copepods they could eat now be nearly impossible for me to see? How do I harvest them from a separate container?

I think Steve at Horizon Pets has a tank with just algae/copepods in it. I don't think it is connected to any other tanks. Is it still best to just start out with a new culture?

[loans_n_fishes]

[quote="Richard"]I would not do just frozen bbs. Maybe stick with a mix of frozen and live (enriched). If they take to cyclopeeze that would be good. Careful with the frozen so that you don't foul the water with uneaten frozen bbs.

I am moving them to a specimen container to feed and then discarding the "feeding water" after placing them back in the main nursery.

[Richard]

Probably these Hydro-Sponge Pre-Filters would work as long as you don't use a real strong pump/powerhead.

http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/FILTRATION/Hydro-Sponge_Filters/hydro-sponge_filters.html

[Richard]

How do I harvest them from a separate container?


Very carefully LOL. Actually I don't know of a good way to seperate out one species. I have harvested a little calanoid pod that is in one of our store fuges. It stays swimming in the water column so I just siphoned some of them out. Still I end up with other species in the culture as well. And they eat the calanoid ones I want :angry .

So short of ordering a pure culture I think you'll end up with a mixed bag of pods from your fuge. It might be easiest to just harvest a couple of clumps of cheato and start a culture that way. Then you could just alternate putting clumps of cheato (full of pods) in with them. Yeah the really little pods are almost impossible to see except at night with a flashlight and even then I get a headache trying to focus on them.

Just make sure the cheato is loosely growing. I've heard some people say that the fry have gotten stuck in dense balls of cheato and died.

Now I will say that although there is some risk in just taking a clump of cheato from your reef and just putting it in with them there is also alot of benefit too. Along with getting little pods for them to snack there is the added benifit that alot of benthic pods feed on bacteria/ciliates that can become harmful to the fry plus the cheato will help with water quality (macros love nitrogen, including ammonia). Would I take that risk? Probably. Should you? It's up to you.

[Richard]

Oh...if you do the cheato thing. You need to make sure there aren't large amphipods in it. They won't do anything useful and people have seen them attack/kill sh fry.

[Richard]

If you plan on keep trying to raise fry here is how I have made my fry setups. No fry yet but I think it will work well. Just two 10 gallon tanks, cycled, a little liverock (aiptasia/hydroid free),macros & of course pods.

The ball valves are so that when I have fry I can turn the flow to the fry tank down to a trickle (so 3, 4, 5x per day or whatever works out the best). That way I can put a prefilter sponge on the drain and not have the fry get sucked to it. Then just add an airline for aeration/current. I haven't put it to the test yet but I think it will be better and less labor intensive than the way most people are rearing fry. It's a crude drawing LOL...

[loans_n_fishes]

Would tying up the chaeto in bridal veil keep the big ones from getting out and the seahorses from getting in? Maybe I should put some in a net or breeder thingy and hang it in the tank?

[Richard]

That sounds like a good idea to me. The little pods that they would eat will be able to pass thru most any type of netting.

[loans_n_fishes]

August 16, 2007:

Last night I was so stressed and sad. I had moved the horses to the feeding container, but afterwards realized I only had 9 babies accounted for. I searched the tank and recounted the ones in the feeder over and over. No 10th guy!! Then I had the horrifying thought that he may have fallen out of my hand during transfer! I frantically searched the floor, sides of the tank, all over the stand, etc for an hour. I finally decided that if I did find him, he would be gone for sure. I was SO depressed. I expected to lose some babies along the way, but I sure wasn't prepared for KILLING them myself! I hardly slept at all and dreamed about searching for him when I did sleep. This morning, I transferred the babies over to the feeding container again and counted them. Then re-counted about 5 times. ALL TEN BABIES!!! :D I have no idea where his hiding place was last night, but I am so relieved that I didn't murder him! :)

I want to get a UV strong enough to service my 18"x18"x32" tank. I'm not sure what that size will be. What is your suggestion? Maybe I could borrow a smaller one from one of my reef buddies for the baby tank? I'm not sure that I want to risk the suction of the powerhead though...

The frozen bbs is San Francisco Bay brand from decapsulated eggs. I put it in the feeding container first this morning and have seen at least 4 actively eating it. I also added some frozen cyclopeez a few minutes later--not sure if this is too big, they don't like it, or they are actually eating it along with the bbs. I'll try it first at the next feeding and see what the reaction is. (UPDATE: at least some are snicking it up). The live rotifers were added after 15 min. I let them feed around 45 min this time because I let the frozen sit in there alone for 15 min and wanted to make sure they were getting enough to eat. I can't see any pink in their bellies, but most are very dark colored, so I am not sure I would be able to tell anyway. All 10 seem to be active still.

I will be buying a starter culture of copepods today along with a bbs hatching set. I plan to hang a second specimen container in the baby tank with some chaeto tied up in bridal veil. I will be adding DT's to this container to sustain the pod culture and add nutrients for the horses. Should I also add Selcon? At feeding time, I will move the wad of chaeto to the feeding container along with the other foods and allow the babies to eat. After feeding, the algae will be placed back in its green water container. I am hoping the bridal veil will keep the babies out of the algae and the large amphipods in.

I will vacuum the bottom of the baby tank today and do a water change to make up the amount that I take out with the cleaning. With each feeding, I take out around 1-2 cups of tank water--so I will count this as part of my water changes. I don't plan to do massive water changes--just the amount I take out at feeding and the amount taken out from siphoning the bottom. I have a very seasoned biowheel filter cylinder floating in the tank. I feel safer with it than a sponge that they might get stuck in. I will add some biospira later just to make sure there is enough bacteria in there. Also, I think I will add a bridal veil bag of crushed aragonite to keep the pH more stable.

Thoughts?

[Richard]

Whenever you have them in the feeding container you should take an airline tubing and vaccum any poop out of the tank at least twice a day. Really keep it clean so bacterial counts stay low.

[Richard]

I will be adding DT's to this container to sustain the pod culture and add nutrients for the horses. Should I also add Selcon?


No don't add selcon. The phyto is loaded nutrition and so the pods will be also. Copepods aren't like brine shrimp which are not very nutritious which is why they have to be enriched.

The best packaged phyto you could use would be Phycopure
(http://phycopure.com/). SeahorseSource (http://www.seahorsesource.com/foods.html) carries it, kind of expensive though.

[loans_n_fishes]

I've got to get the camera working with the puter. My husband will help me out later. I'm dying to show them off.

All 10 are still very active! :D I think I will forego the UV on the baby tank for now. I don't want to add anything that has the possibility (however slim) of sucking them up.

Regarding the bbs: What fat content and other nutrition percentages am I aiming for with frozen? I would prefer to keep them on frozen to some degree. I would think that would make things easier when switching to frozen mysis.

Should I continue to offer the cyclopeez throughout the raising process? How nutritious is this for them? Will this help them maintain better nutrition along the way? I know a lot of people have had problems with fry not getting enough nutrients at some point during the raising process.

Should I offer copepods INSTEAD of bbs or in addition to?

[erikharrison]

The majority of their feeding should be of the copepods and less of the bbs. Brine is good for filling them up, but lacks nutritionally.

[Texreefer]

sounds like just as much work as i'm going through with my clowns

[Richard]

Should I continue to offer the cyclopeez throughout the raising process? How nutritious is this for them? Will this help them maintain better nutrition along the way? I know a lot of people have had problems with fry not getting enough nutrients at some point during the raising process


Cyclopeeze IS a copepod so if they are eating it then I would use that over the frozen bbs. Here is the nutritional info for it
http://www.cyclop-eeze.com/product_info.php

Also use only the frozen cyclopeeze not the freeze dried stuff. Some cichlid breeders have told me that the freeze dried stuff can slice up the stomach/intestines of little fry. I don't know if that's really true but I'm sure you don't want to be the one to find out.

There is a guy named David on seahorse.org. He knows alot about nutrition for fry and he has raised thousands of sh's commercially so you might want to contact him and get his thoughts. You may need a translator for his aussie slang though.

[loans_n_fishes]

Cool! I am using the frozen not freeze dried cyclopeez. So, I'll get some live copepods going just to make sure they are all eating well. I shouldn't need a bbs culture going then? Is it possible for my babies to go from cyclopeez and live copepods straight to frozen mysis, or do I need to supplement with day old, etc enriched bbs?

[Richard]

I would still use the live bbs also. I don't think you'll find to many people with experience raising fry just on cyclopeeze. They normally don't take frozen so easily and most fry aren't big enough for cyclopeeze so young. You're very lucky!

The nice thing about the bbs is that you can gut load them with various things (selcon, phyto etc.) prior to feeding. So that way you can deliver a variety of nutrition to them. So when/if they get big enough for mysis you probably still want to offer gut load bbs. Some people will get them to the 2-3 month point and then start losing them. I think this is because they stop offering them enough nutritional variety. So don't get stuck on feeding them just one thing.

I hope you get them to adulthood. I don't know wat barb/erectus hybrids will look like but it should be cool. A barb with cirri, that would be sweet!

[loans_n_fishes]

OOOOHHH! That would be sweet!! My erectus does not have cirri. Is it possible for the babies to develop them later, or do they have to be born with it?

I bought the wad of chaeto with all kinds of pods in it. I put it in yet another specimen container with tank water and some DT's Phyto. I took a small amount and tied it up in bridal veil.

At this last feeding, I added the cyclopeez first. Many (if not all) were definitely eating it! :D After about 10-15 min I added the ball of netted chaeto. I think they were hunting and eating the pods, but it is pretty much impossible for me to see the bugs. After 5 min of that I added the rotifers for good measure and left it for 30 min. I just tranferred them back to the main baby tank by hand and stuck the chaeto back in its container. (I rinse the feeding container and let it dry between feedings.)

[loans_n_fishes]

sounds like just as much work as i'm going through with my clowns

I imagine! I saw your thread but haven't had a chance to read it all. You know how parenting goes! ;) :P

How's yours coming along?

[Texreefer]

10 healthy juveniles

[loans_n_fishes]

Well, I lost one yesterday and two today. :( One more may be on its way out. Hopefully things will turn around. Not sure what the factor is...

[loans_n_fishes]

As of tonight, I have 2 babies left. :( I just did a massive water change and added some Prime to make sure all ammonia, etc stays in check. Not sure if they are eating much. I put the bridal veil of chaeto in the main tank tonight to help with some extra nurishment. Hope they make it, but I am not very confident at this stage.

I will be more organized and ready the next time around. I saw Morgan (male erectus) and Chrystal (female barb) at it again last night. 8)

I am really hoping this log doesn't come to an end tomorrow!

[loans_n_fishes]

One lonely little baby! I put him in the feeding container with rotifers, algae, cyclopeez. I'm not sure whether he is eating or gasping. :( He is still swimming around though.

I REALLY hope he makes it, but I wasn't expecting to have survivors for my first batch. So although it is not a surprise, it is saddening none-the-less. :cry

I FINALLY found a brine shrimp hatchery in town, but apparently it didn't come with an air pump. :angry Now, I need to go buy that, too.

I imagine it is too late to start this little guy on it, but I will definitely be set for the next batch in one to two weeks. I assume it will be around that time. Am I correct?

I don't think it was a lack of nutrition, though. They all seemed to be eating the cyclopeez and I believe they were also hunting the copepods and rotifers. The only thing I can think of is either water quality or bacteria. That would explain them going at about the same time. I added Prime before even testing the quality...panicked. Some were scratching, but it seemed to be mainly when I fed, so I thought it was probably the food tickling them.

Any thoughts or suggestions for the loner...and/or my next batch? Should I go ahead and try to offer shaved mysis? (It's the flat package around the size of a piece of paper.)

[loans_n_fishes]

My last little baby is still alive and eating. :) I did a massive water change while he ate in the container. He is still swimming around. I don't think he is on his way out---yet. :huh

[erikharrison]

Are you using water from your other tank or just plain old tap? Do you test the levels in the tank everyday? I know that would be somewhat cumbersome, but maybe you are beridding yourself of some beneficial water? What size wc are you doing daily? I'm trying to spur some ideas!

[loans_n_fishes]

Using tap with Prime added. The tap water here seems to be of good quality and I have had no problems with it in my other tanks.

I do not want to use water from my other tank(s) because of the chance of spreading disease. Plus, I don't see it as "clean".

A lot of people raising seahorses change their water as much as 3 times a day, so I don't think that should be a problem. I do still have the seasoned filter media in the tank to help out.

When I say "massive water change", I am talking about all of the water in the 10 gallon tank except maybe 2". I siphon off the bottom to get all of the nasties out.

Perhaps this action is helping the little guy--perhaps not--, but it doesn't seem to be hurting him. Hopefully, this is what was needed to keep him healthy. I guess we will wait and see. ;)

[erikharrison]

Not sure how sensitive the fry are, but is it possible that the saltwater is of a different salinity? That could be causing it? Maybe try to make alot of sw first, then just add water from that?

[loans_n_fishes]

I always make sure salinity is matched before changing. I even add a little new water to the feeding container before putting the little guy back in the baby tank.

[loans_n_fishes]

Well, I lost my last little one by the evening on the 20th. :( It has been a rather difficult experience, but I hope it will be better this next time...which should be soon! I saw both males mating. One with my reidi and the other with the barb. I should have babies again fairly soon. What do you think of putting them all in the same tank? I know that the reidi do not hitch at birth and the barb/erectus does...