Closed loop vs. powerheads - Planning process

[ismvel]

Well doing some research and reading on here and a couple of other forums.

I am thinking at getting a closed loop in my new tank, using a reeflo pump (possibly the hammerhead not sure if it will be too much on a 6 foot 220 gallon) and an OM 4-way, and for the return I will have 2 sea swirls on a mag 18...

It is going to be a 5" DSB. I was thinking of drilling 4 holes about 3 holes up from the bottom and running PVC along the floor of the tank and using lockline tubing. then bury the pvc so it wouldn't show. And a 5th hole somewhere above the 5" sand bed. Questions on this:
1. Could I use one drain for the CL, or do I need 2 drains?
2. Could I possibly drill these CL drains in the corner overflows? So they are not visible

Second part of this is.....anyone have those ridiculously expensive Ecotech Vortec pumps? Some on RC were saying they prefer a couple of those over the CL system....any ideas or thoughts on these? $700+ on two small pumps (although they can push up to 3000 gph each) is steep!!!!!!!!!! But the savings on electricity would pay for them eventually.....

Somone from another forum suggested I use two Tunze 6055 on a single controller with a Y splitter.....any suggestions?

I think that the arguement was that the CL would not provide a random water flow, higher electricity consumption, and heat factor from the pumps. But I am thinking the way I am planning my set up it would be a fairly random flow (with alternating surges in the lower tier from the CL, and each sea swirl having a y splitter and two locklines on each one for surface agitation and the other for shooting water in the mid section of the tank). I will try to get some type of drawing on here somehow of what my design for the CL and return will be and see if I get a better opinion of my thoughts from the pros. But until then, please help me out with my other inquiries....Thanks.

ismael

[LoneStar]

1. Could I use one drain for the CL, or do I need 2 drains?


1 drain is all you will need. Depending on the inlet size of the pump, that will be the size of drain you will use. The just add a large strainer on the drain to prevent anything from being sucked down there.

http://www.aquaticeco.com//images/items/TSS20_rgb.jpg
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/8566/cid/2098



2. Could I possibly drill these CL drains in the corner overflows? So they are not visible


I wouldn't put the drain for a closed loop in the overflow. I would think there would be a inconsistancy in water flow into the drain (from both the sump pump and the closed loop pump). It might drain the overflow too quick and allow air to be sucked into the closed loop.

But it looks like you have been doing your research on both options! Basically you have listed the pros and cons for both. I think you would get some good random flow from the ocean motions. The 4 way is designed to switch from one outlet to the next, so its not like all four will be blowing at the same time.

I have a Vortech but haven't been able to use it yet! I also have a Tunze Stream 6100 and have used those in the past. Those pumps perform awesome! Hook them up to a multicontroller and they can do some nice stuff. For a tank of your size, I would use at least (2) 6100's and a multicontroller. The 6055's are WAY too small for a 220g tank. The Vortech's are still relatively new....but they have some good options coming out for them. All existing users have the options of upgrading theirs to a wireless controlled unit. Then they can either get the single controller (which will act like a Tunze single controller) or get the wireless multicontroller due out at the end of the year....

[GeoB]

The number of drains depends on their size. If the drain is the same size as the pump intake, then you would only need one. Even if it is a little smaller you could get by with one, just keep as much of the plumbing at least the size of your pump intake as possible to maximize flow.

I don't think you would want the drains in your overflows. I doubt they could handle the amount of water going through the closed loop plus the return water, and if they could it would probably be noisy and a lot of splashing which leads to microbubbles. Also, proteins adhere to water surfaces, so you want your overflow water to go directly to your sump.

By the time you pay for the drilling, plumbing, pump and OM-4way, a closed loop will cost close to the same as two Vortecs or Streams with a controller. Deep sand beds and the Vortecs/Streams don't usually mix too well. On a 220 you might get away with it, but would probably have better luck with the closed loop. With a high flow tank, it might be hard to keep the sand where you want it, so your under sand piping might get exposed. A lot of people drill through the bottom of their tanks to achieve what it sounds like you are trying to do. Closed loops are a lot more work to install, but are less intrusive in the tank. Closed loops have more options for getting the flow just like you want it, but you can't change much once you drill the holes. Powerheads can be moved to adjust for rockwork changes or coral growth. Powerheads have a lot of wiring which can get messy and tangled. Just my two pennys.

[ismvel]

Tried playing around with Google Sketchup, but it seemed a little difficult..LOL..so I decided to use Paint and here is my elementary school attempt

okay here are some 3rd grade renditions of what I am thinking of doing with the closed loop if I do not go with the Tunzes that someone suggested...If you look at from the front, that is what I was referring to when I mentioned that I shouldn't have any dead spots with the sea swirls split to agitate the top and one pointed towards the middle and then the ocean motion doing 1 & 3 at the same time and then alternating with 2 & 4 running simultaneously....at least on paper it sounds good....thoughts?

Top
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t219/maelv75/Top.jpg
Front
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t219/maelv75/front.jpg
I plan on making it a 5" sand bed so all the bulkheads for the CL would be under the sand, and I would place rocks to cover the lock-lines so they wouldn't be visible.

[Bill S]

On your drains, I'd put MANY strainers on them. You really can't overdo them, and that way, if anything HAPPENS to get sucked into it, it can swim away. I have 6 drains on my 2400 gph closed loops.

As for returns, you want to avoid having 2 aiming at each other. While I'd love some more randomness to my flow, I have EVERYTHING going clockwise, looking down. This gets the whole tank "whirling", and continuously on the move.

While there is LOTS of discussion regarding bi-directional flow, in my experiences on coral reefs, flow is generally in one direction with a continuous current.

[ismvel]

1 drain is all you will need. Depending on the inlet size of the pump, that will be the size of drain you will use. The just add a large strainer on the drain to prevent anything from being sucked down there.
bstreep, I was only planning on one drain, you suggesting I put more? And I know the pictures stink....but they wouldn't be blowing into one another. I am planning on using an Oceans Motion 4 way (option three where number 1 and 3 are going then 2 and 4 are going)...so it "shouldn't" ever have any of the returns blowing into one another at any given time....or so are the plans.

Thanks for your input...I had originally thought of going in one direction prior to considering an ocean's motion unit....

[Bill S]

I'm just suggesting that you put a large surface area on your drain screens.

[txstateunivreefer]

im upgrading my closed loop and im doing something similar to your cl design what are sea squirts i havent seen em?

[ismvel]

im upgrading my closed loop and im doing something similar to your cl design what are sea squirts i havent seen em?I am in no way, shape, or form a professional...but I believe it is similar to an oceans motion (they do make it) but rated for smaller gph.??? And cheaper as well. You can check out their lineup on their site.


http://www.oceansmotions.com/store/?osCsid=0b25237c84cca1ea365fd006c11c6d88

[txstateunivreefer]

nvm i see sea swirl now

[ismvel]

Okay this struck me as odd, but.........

I contacted Perfecto to see if my 220 reef ready with corner overflows had tempered glass....I just KNEW the bottom at least was tempered....here is the response I got from Perfecto...Anyone have any thoughts???


the 220 corner flo does not have any tempered panels. However, please know that any drilling voids any and all warranty on the tank.

Thanks and have a great day!

Kim Schouten
Customer Service Representative
Perfecto Manufacturing
phone 800-241-7485 ext 161fax 317-773-7875

[matt]

There are definite advantages to using stream pumps like the Tunzes. They use much less electricity, they generate much less heat, and you can move them around after your tank is set up as you want. The no-heat issue is especially important if you're not running a chiller. The only real disadvantage is that you have to look at them in the tank, and of course, they're expensive. Personally I'd be thinking of using a few of the non programmable ones as they're much cheaper and your goal here is to simply move alot of water around. With the sea swirls on your return you'll have some random flow. I would also forget the mag 18 idea for return and get a "real" pump like a pan world or sequence.

[ismvel]

I would also forget the mag 18 idea for return and get a "real" pump like a pan world or sequence.

Thanks for the help matt. I am going to get a sequence for the CL, I was simply thinking the mag for the return from the sump....you suggesting I should get another sequence for that as well?

[ismvel]

I would also forget the mag 18 idea for return and get a "real" pump like a pan world or sequence.

Thanks for the help matt. I am going to get a sequence for the CL, I was simply thinking the mag for the return from the sump....you suggesting I should get another sequence for that as well?

[matt]

Depending on your sump size and overflow capacity, maybe you could use a small sequence as your return pump. Otherwise get a good external pump that won't fall apart or lose half it's flow in a month. I don't have alot of faith in closed loops any more due to the heat, noise, electricity requirements, tank drilling requirements and potential for leaks. I hate to say it, but the stream pumps solve all those problems. It's really only the multi controller and controllable streams that are outrageous. You could get 2 6080s for about $370 (I think) and have 4500gph on about 30 watts, no noise, no leaks. And if you get your whole system up and running and the flow isn't right or you need a little more, just move the pumps around and maybe buy a couple of smaller ones to supplement where you need it. It's tough to justify the closed loop IMO.

[ismvel]

Well you definitely have a great arguement and have me interested. I am fairly new to the hobby (a little over a year) and haven't had much experience with the really nice equipment. But that is going to change. I am not too fond of the mag 18 to be honest with you....thanks for the information...

[LoneStar]

If you are looking for a small Sequence pump, they came out with the Snapper. Its identical with the Dart, just less gph and less wattage. And SUPER quiet!

[ismvel]

As mentioned before, I will be using an OM 4-way and a sequence barracuda for the CL.

Questions:
1. For the barracuda, what size PVC tubing should I use for the CL system?
2. What size hole saw should I be looking for/buying?

[LoneStar]

The Snapper suggestion was for the mag 18 replacement.

As for the Barracuda, stick with the outlet size of the pump for all the lines in the Closed Loop.

[LoneStar]

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~MM1158~tab~1.html

The outlet of the Barracua is 1.5". Use that diameter plumbing up to the 4way. It may have to be reduced to a smaller diameter on the inlet and outlets of the 4way.

[ismvel]

Thanks LoneStar....I knew the Snapper was a Mag 18 replacement. And the Hammerhead was my initial choice, but I beleive someone said it could be too much flow...causing major sand storms....but I may go with it....

So what size hole saw would I need for 1.5" holes? Doesn't the saw have to be a little bigger so I can actually get the bulkhead in?

[LoneStar]

If you are needing a hole size for a bulkhead, it all depends on which brand bulkhead you buy. Most manufacturers will post dimensions of their bulkheads online, with a hole diameter size needed for it to work properly.

[ismvel]

Good looking out LoneStar......I am on Marine Depot and see the hole size......thanks

[tomanero]

This sounds similar...
My 110 closed loop I just finished. (pic attached)

Specs are:
Return Pump - Reeflo Dart
Return Lines - 1.5" PVC into 2 SQWD's (3/4" inlet, 2-3/4 outlets each alternating the plumbing from side to side) w/vinyl tubing going into 4 -3/4 returns w/locline
Drain - 1 - 2" bulkhead w/homemade strainer

Sump/Fuge
Overflow w/1" Drain "T'd" into 2 returns each w/ball valve (one into outside right=skimmer section/one to outside left=fuge w/Mag 5 return in center

Just added water today.
Closed loop = good flow and quiet
Sump/fuge drain = NOISEY (have to play with this still)

Give me a yell with any questions or suggestions.

[ismvel]

Tomanero, looks like a simple design....I am all about simple and effective...do you have a picture of the front?

[tomanero]

This is the best I can do with my camera (and non-existant photo skills)