copper in tanks?

[jessinator752]

a friend of mine just bought a 55 gal tank that came completely stocked with several types of triggers, puffers, and an eel. after buying it the gal helped her move it to her house (i did as well) and told my friend that she had used copper to cure ick. the gal was told that since it's a fish only she could use copper, however there were snails, crabs, an anenome and live rock in there as well. the snails and anenome died almost instantly, but the crabs and fish are still alive. i'm wondering what the copper did to the fish and the rock. can she put the live rock in a different tank or is that live rock now damaged from the copper? what is the correct way to treat ick in a saltwater tank? i assume everything in that tank won't be usable for any other fish or inverts again, am i right? any insite would be great. thanks, jessica

[5.0Stang]

I wouldnt use any of that stuff in a reef tank or any tank with inverts in it. Some say it can be cleaned after a long time but i wouldnt risk it. IMO

[jessinator752]

so the fish and crabs that are still in the tank are ok to put in a new tank, or would they carry the copper over to the new tank? this 55 gal is way over stocked, and the fish shouldn't even be in a 55 they should be in a 90+ gal tank. here is a list of the fish in it: Dogface puffer, Porcupine puffer, Niger trigger, Bursa trigger, Foxface rabbit fish, green wolf eel, and 2 crabs. plus around 25 lbs of live rock.

[5.0Stang]

I would say the fish would be ok to put in another FOWLR tank not a reef though too risky IMO the crabs and rock i wouldnt.

[caferacermike]

The rock and substrate is definitely what I'd be most concerned with. I've read that CU can stick to silicone really well.

[jessinator752]

so the sand and rock will have to be tossed if the fish die or get moved to a new tank, the crabs can only be in that tank, and the fish can be moved to a larger tank without any harm to the new tank? what about the 55 gal? does that need to be tossed or can it be cleaned? can it be use for other critters such as reptiles or would that hurt anything else put in that tank?

[Richard]

I wouldn't worry about it. Just replace the sand, use the rock, tank, filter etc. The fish and crabs can't transfer copper anywhere.

Copper is an essential nutrient. It's found in every food you use, every salt mix. So everytime you feed your fish or do a water change your adding a little bit of copper to the tank. It's free copper that is used to treat ick and you don't have to worry about that.

The only reason I say replace the sand is that free copper tends to bind with carbonates and some people say this can be a problem for snails, worms, etc. that might ingest lots of sand while feeding. I've never found it to be an issue but just to error on the safe side.

The thing about copper binding to silicone is sort of true, sort of not. Alot of the off the shelf copper treatments are chelated copper. These can bind to very clean surfaces like the silicone and then be released later so that free copper levels remain high even after changing all the water. This is only a problem with repeated long term use of these chelated copper treatments.

Oh, copper is the most effective treatment for ick when used correctly but it can't be used in a reef or with inverts as she found out. Remember ick is an invert also. For treatment in a reef you have to rely on things that use the fishes own immune system (water quality, feeding, etc.) and perhaps uv.

[jessinator752]

i forgot to mention that the fish still have ich. so that would mean that the gal that used the copper didn't dose it right, correct?

so what you (richard) are saying is that everything is fine, and she can reuse the tank as long as she throws the sand out? what about all the equipment and the containers used to transport?

[caferacermike]

I think tossing out the containers and such is taking it to the extreme end. As Richard said, it will really depend upon how much she used the stuff and how often.

The recurring ich is probably due more to a water quality issue than any amount of treatments can handle. Those fish are under a lot of stress and will need a lot if quiet time to relax and fight off the ich. Clean water is one of the most important tools in the hobby. If the tanks are neglected, no amount of copper will rid the fish of ich.

[reeferRob]

I agree, don't get all wrapped aound the axle over the copper, I assume it will stay a FOWLR? Provide some good clean water and plenty of food (NOT EXCESS) regular water changes......JMO

[erikharrison]

especially with that bioload and small amount of live rock. What are her levels testing at? Jess, the best way to treat ich is a UV sterilizer. Yes, just like the one you sold me! :) If it's fowlr, drop the salinity to 1.015, and leave it there. Most LFS do this because they have a large influx of fish, and the low salinity kills most of the parasites in the water. Make sure the change to low salinity is done fast. When you're ready to bring the salinity back up, DO IT SLOW! I recommend a dripper bucket.

[jessinator752]

her levels as of yesterday were 7.8 ph, 0 nitrite, 80 nitrate, and .50 ammonia. i talked to my friend this morning and she said that the foxface is slamming all over the tank, running into the glass and other fish. yes, it will stay a fowlr. we are trying to find a larger tank for these fish, but since my friend just set up a 55 reef funds are kinda tight.

[erikharrison]

water changes period. Those fish will start dying!

[jessinator752]

well, we did a 50% water change when we set the tank up yesterday. we will get a copper testing kit today and test the levels to see where they are at, and check all the other levels again. depending on the readings we will do another water change, either another large one or a small one.

[brewercm]

You can try to add garlic to their food. This sometimes helps their immune system fight off things like ich.

[jessinator752]

thanks, that's what i already told my friend to do.

[erikharrison]

Lower the salinity, and the levels. Garlic is good in general to feed to the fishers. Are you using dechlorinated water? If you're not using R/O, better be putting some Prime in it!

[Ram_Puppy]

remember that the move itself was stressful for those fish, so that alone compromises their immune system.

I agree w/ adding garlic extract to increase their feeding response.

and i don't remember everything off the first post, but i think my first impression was high bio load.

if the anemone died and was not removed in a timely manner, it's gonna do horrible things to your chemistry.

[MKCindy]

A few months back, I had three clown fish and my six-liner declare war. All suffered injuries and showed signs of stress and ulcers that led to ick. Over the next few weeks they improved and re-developed more ich spots.
I reluctantly ordered SANO Broad Spectrum Reef Tank Remedies from North Coast Pets. (don't know if anyone locally carries this) Reef safe and noticeable results the first day. One drop per 5 gallons of each of two bottles. Total treatment time is 3 days max. With shipping the treatment ran $43 Worth every cent.