Question

[JimD]

Do you think local vendors should offer a stay alive guarantee on corals like they do online? I found out that most do not. Seems kind of sketchy to buy a $100 + coral localy and take the gamble that its going to survive even under perfect conditions... Personaly? Im not willing to risk the loss so my choice of acro suppliers will remain online. Just thinking out loud here.

[BIGBIRD123]

Just thinking...

Something "new" here?

LMAO! luv ya man!

Steve

[Texreefer]

Just my opinion here,although i do agree with you Jim, seems local stores have a hard enough time trying to make ends meets without trying to compete with large online retailers. most online retailers operate more like wholesale warehouses and can afford the losses easier than a small local shop,, i buy online but i also like to support the local shops whenever possible

[captexas]

I'm not sure about having the guarantee on corals as there are way too many factors in an aquarium that can affect coral health that are beyond the LFS control. I would like to see one on fish though, maybe a 5 day period or something like that. That would force them to acclimate the fish or quarantine them better. Pretty much all the main online companies offer a guarantee and even PetsMart does on their freshwater fish. Unfortunately As Tex mentioned, LFS don't make that much money to begin with and I think from what I have heard in the past, they usually have to eat the cost of DOA's on the livestock orders they get which hurts them more.

[JimD]

I understand all that, as a consumer and a working stiff, the fact that its basicly a gamble when you purchase expensive coral with no guarantee from a local vendor, usually with an unknown origin, and it rtns within a short period of time, youre pretty much sol. One option would be for them to not even stock the high dollar corals for their protection as well as the customer. Nothing at all against any lfs's, its just me not willing to take the risk. Even a 50% credit would be more incentive to buy.

[caferacermike]

I'd say I'm 50/50 on the idea.

I'd absolutely love it. I once bought an Elegance from (LFS to remain nameless due to other great transactions and a decent business reputation) that was gorgeous. I mean the skeleton was an X shape and it was almost 6" end to end. You should have seen the electric blue tips on it. I bought it as it was being brought out of the shipping crate, still in the bag for $200. I should never have bought a coral for $200 but I had just got paid a bunch of overtime and felt like splurging. 2 days later I really wish the store had informed me of the 99% chance of death and tank pollution that was about to occur. In the end I kind of felt like the store duped me into buying a risky coral. Nothing was ever mentioned about "brown jelly", "likely death", or "rough shipping issues" that all to often kill the cata corals.

On the other hand online retailers have the upper hand in the deal. They know you will be forced to pay an outrageous shipping fee and that they might not have a replacement for you. This means you might not even bother with the "replacement" guarantee. It might also lead you to falsely believe they really care. Since they probably paid $9 for the coral they sold you for $100 and charged you $50 shipping for, that on a business account probably only cost them $25, they've already more then made their money back even if they have to replace it. Of course you will want to maximize your shipping dilemma, so you are a likely candidate to spend even more money when getting your "credit". So you look online, don't see a replacement but decide to use your credit on another piece but can't justify spending another $50 on a single coral when they offer each additional piece for $5 shipping, you decide to buy another $200 worth this time around. It's a win win for them.

[JimD]

Its also a lose/lose situation for us, the consumer if you purchase localy and the coral dies and a win/ win for the lfs. Im all for supporting the local guy, but not at the risk of trowing money out the window, this hobby is expensive enough.

[Texreefer]

here is a thread on RC about the same subject
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1084636

[JimD]

For me, its really not about price, Ill gladly pay for quality, its more about the after sale support from the lfs to us, the ones who pay their bills.

[captexas]

It's kind of hard dealing with live items though. When you buy an appliance or whatever at at store and it goes bad a few days later, you take it back to the store to get a credit/refund/replacement and they in turn send it back to the company they got it from for a credit/refund. The LFS can't do that, they would have to eat the cost. Again, I think it's nearly impossible to provide a guarantee on a live animal when it is being put into an environment the store has absolutely no control over. Especially something like a fish/coral who could die from 100's of different factors.

There are just too many things that can go wrong in a tank, many of which we never figure out. I like the idea of a guarantee though, just not sure how any store could be profitable having one.

[Richard]

Well your the consumers and ultimately you decide the future of this hobby. So if the consumers want to support what's going on in this hobby right now so be it. I'll move on to less work, more money, paid vacations and 401k's.

Bottom line is that you are asking an LFS to recieve corals, hold them so you are sure they are healthy, take 100% of the losses, sell them for less than online prices in many cases, and now promise you they will never die. That's just not possible. This isn't a risk free hobby.

A large majority of stuff sold online is dropshipped straight from wholesalers so the etailer assumes zero risk. I see the wholesale prices they are paying and what they are selling them for and their margins are much higher than what most LFS in this area are doing. Still, just because they have nice websites doesn't mean they are making any money. As is often the case in the business world sometimes there is more than meets the eye. Here are some quotes from the owner of liveaquaria...


Some of you have asked " Why would you be content operating LiveAquaria as a break even financial entity". Here is why. First and foremost I am a veterinarian with a keen interest in the Industry behind the Aquarium Hobby. The operating of LiveAquaria.com as the developing " fish and coral cartel " is a hobby for me and I enjoy it. Additionally, it helps support our core business which is Animal Health.
When I entered the Industry Behind The Hobby about six years ago I found it full of snakes, and snakes do not belong in an aquarium. As a marketing strategy and a way to flush the snakes from the rocks I think it best to destroy the traditional infrastructure so that both the industry and the hobby may recover and survive. Case in point: AMDA, the American Marinelife Dealers Association would not let me participate as a member because I believe in your right as an aquarium owner to have fish and coral sent directly to your door rather than me tanking it in my retail store and making you drive to pick it up. Direct delivery with minimal acclimation is the best for the health of the livestock and generally the cheapest for the hobbyist. We should not band together as retailers to fight off dropshipping. Again, Dropshipping and Aquaculture facilities are the future, not the barrier. I have proven that over and over. I encourage all retailers to develop a web site and join in. The hobby wants and deserves it.


There currently is no voice to represent the hobbyist other than LiveAquaria.com and the Reef Clubs. I will continue to ask your support so that the LIVEAQUARIA.COM CARTEL may grow and secure even a greater supply of the best fish and coral.

As I mentioned, I am very much for the retailer as well as the aquaculturist and dropshipper. It takes all of us to make up an industry to supply you, the customer.

Hopefully this helps all of my customers appreciate my political motives. I will work for you without the sole intent of profiteering,---- it's my hobby too. I am passionate about this. That is why on another forum they correctly referred to me as "One Passionate Madman". I will accept the title with honor and charge forward with the customers interest at heart.

Race Foster, D.V.M.




My cannon is not leveled at the LFS. I will admit though it's huge barrel is leveled at AMDA. Kind of like in war,-- when a building is blown up innocent people inside get hurt. Probably going to be the same with AMDA members when I touch her off. I am not proud of it, please consider yourself a victim not a target.


Hi Jenn,
As I stated, made my money another way. I find it charitable at this point to buy half a million dollars of live fish and coral per month and distribute them amongst the hobby-- all with a guarantee to live. Makes me feel good inside to give something back.

One customer called me the "Aquatic Santa", if he knew the industry behind the hobby he would realize that I am more like Robin Hood.

Now you can take that stuff at face value or read between the lines and come to the conclusion that there is an effort by some etailers to break the industry so they can eventually have full control over it. Maybe that would be a good thing for consumers & the hobby but I highly doubt it. If a small group of large etailers gain full control over the supply/sale of sw livestock, do you think that they will still continue to offer that stay alive guarantee and continue to operate as a "break even finicial entity"? My guess is no.

If I chose my job strictly based on money, I'd close the store tomorrow because I can make alot more doing other things. I like to think there is a future for local saltwater stores but judging from this thread, maybe not.

[JimD]

You may be right Richard, with the growing popularity of online shopping in just about every dimention of products, mom & pop shops like yours and many others may soon be a thing of the past.

[erikharrison]

Richard. you rock. I try as hard as I can not to order off the internet and support my LFS. Nine times out of ten I can find a better deal at the LFS if I am looking. Shipping charges are outrageous. I would love to see 1 SPS Supreme TANK at at least one LFS, I am talking 500-1000 gallons full of corals. The fact of the matter is that we cannot support an LFS into having such a tank. WAIT WE COULD... Support your local fish stores and spread some money around to this hobby... If you don't want to support the people that offer us their wealth of knowledge for free, get out of the hobby. This is America, and small business needs to thrive, because that is everyone's dream. I think I speak for most of us when I say that owning a LFS that was making good money would be a wonderful thing. Support those that have dreams like you, support your LFS.

The More You Know.....

(that's my psa and I'm stickin' to it!)

[Richard]

Online shopping and cheaper, cheaper, cheaper seems to be unique to the saltwater hobby. Anyone can look at my store and tell it is not a "saltwater" store. If it wasn't for the fact that I love the hobby I would get rid of it and bring in more dog/cat/bird stuff. More money there and those people just buy without haggling and I never have to spend 30 minutes explaining why they have algae problems without selling them a single thing.

This trend wouldn't bother me at all as I believe in capitalism and consumers rights (I'm a consumer also) except that your talking live animals being taken from reefs that already face alot of pressures. How many animals do think are being sacrificed on behalf of this no questions asked guarantee? What's the incentive to learn about an animal and it's care when any hobbyist can just buy it and if it lives great but if it dies oh well I got credit to try something else. Take caferacers example, the store certainly could have done a better job keeping him from making an uneducated decision but how would clicking "add to cart" have better prepared him. If he had that online guarantee big deal if it dies just get a replacement and another and another. You know now that I think about it there my be no future for the hobby at all. Most lfs's, wholesalers, etailers don't give a **** about the livestock just the money. Now if hobbyist's feel the same way, and that triples the amount of livestock collected and dieing just to fullfill the "no risk reef" that you like then it's only a matter of time before government/environmental regulations put an end to it all.

As I said, IMO this is just an effort for some to take control of the hobby and ultimately the money. Do you really think that rich guys are investing hundreds of millions of dollars cause they just love the hobby. In the end consumers decide the way it's going to be and I'm cool with that. If that's the way it goes I think in the long term hobbyist's lose but such is life. At least you can save a few bucks now.

[JimD]

Maybe I need to just let this thread die before it turns ugly. lol

[Richard]

No arguing on my part. Forums are for people to talk honestly not just to agree with each other. I don't get upset that everyone in the world can't see that I am always right and they are all wrong ;) .

Don't misunderstand me, I am not against online shopping. I send people online all the time for certain things. I just view that blanket no questions asked guarantee and what I believe the goal of it is, as an unethical business practice.

As for your parrot example, that's a tough one. If I sold parrots, then I would have told you to get an autopsy from a vet. If it were from something that it had when you bought it I'd offer a replacement plus 1/2 the autopsy cost. I guess it's just a matter of ethics. I'm not saying support LFS's no matter what. As a hobbyist since '83, I know alot of them suck. My point is, if that was a wild caught parrot and you just got a replacement and another and another because you didn't know jack about them then that would be completely unethical.

Saltwater fish/corals are different than parrots though. How can someone realistically tell you that this acro won't die in your tank without knowing anything about your tank. Or even if they do know about your tank. Heck, sometimes they rtn if you don't look at them the right way.

[Texreefer]

i work in the restaurant business and one of my biggest pet peevs is when a customer orders a meal trys it then says they don't like it and want it taken off their bill so they can get something else,,very similar situation,,if you went to HEB bought every ingredient to make a nice meal, came home cooked it and it tasted like @$@%.. your not going to take the dish back to HEB and say " i bought all this stuff here and when i put it together i didn't like it" point is that once you purchase something, unless it comes with a written warranty (in this case a money back guarentee), you assume all the risk.... i have purchased both places and will contimue to do so.. i just try to make informed decisions and will not buy somthing i don't think i can keep alive even if it does have a guarantee

[JimD]

I would hope that the retailer would have enough confidence in their supplier to be able to offer some type of guarentee, maybe not a 100% guarantee but something. Granted, acros are touchy to say the least but I would think that the majority of experienced aquarists would have at least basic knowledge when it comes to husbandry, that said, It would seem that the majority of corals sold would survive for at least a period of time in their tank. Its the ones that OD within a 24 hour period that would be affected. Im by no means attempting to impliment any kind of "hey, do this or I wont buy from you" strategy, I would just have a hard time swallowing a huge loss if this were to happen to me. The loss of a coral for "experienced" reefers would most likely be the exception to the rule so replacements or credits should be at a minimum within reason. Oh, and HEB takes anything back, no questions asked because theyre a huge chain and have enough profit margine to absorb the loss,.

[DaBird47]

Richard, as one of the people who have taught me more about this hobby than anyone , Ever, I say a great big thank you! You too Mark! It's not about the price of a coral or a great fish that this is supposed to be about, but the experience of REEFING itself. I have spent countless hours in LFS's asking about this coral or that fish because that's where a wealth of knowledge is, when you find a really informed person who wants to help, he needs to be supported...If that means that every so often that you loose a coral or a fish then that's a price that I'm more than glad to pay!...To all LFS's...THANK YOU... (well, most of you ;) ...)

[Ed]

Personally, I think a 48 hour 'guarantee' on SPS would be a good thing for the consumer AND the LFS. If the SPS is healthy when sold, it is not likely to go south in 48 hours. However, customers *might* be more inclined to buy knowing they had that guarantee, thus bringing more business to the LFS. Heck, they might even pay a few bucks more to get the guarantee. But what do I know?

[erikharrison]

Personally, I think a 48 hour 'guarantee' on SPS would be a good thing for the consumer AND the LFS. If the SPS is healthy when sold, it is not likely to go south in 48 hours.


Alot of people do not acclimate properly... A lfs has no control over that and their profit margins arent astronomical to start covering any "bad" sps when it could just be owner error that caused the demise of the coral(s)

[Ed]

Alot of people do not acclimate properly... A lfs has no control over that and their profit margins arent astronomical to start covering any "bad" sps when it could just be owner error that caused the demise of the coral(s)

Nothing is idiot proof. However, a simple written guarantee that specifies it is only valid if the coral is acclimated according to the LFS instructions (and includes those acclimation instructions) should solve most acclimation related losses. Reeftopia specifies this in their guarantee (and includes acclimation instructions). I'm sure others that sell live animals do as well.

[DaBird47]

How can an LFS give any kind of a guarantee on corals? Too many variables...

[erikharrison]

Nothing is idiot proof. However, a simple written guarantee that specifies it is only valid if the coral is acclimated according to the LFS instructions (and includes those acclimation instructions) should solve most acclimation related losses. Reeftopia specifies this in their guarantee (and includes acclimation instructions). I'm sure others that sell live animals do as well.

How do you enforce that? If I had a really expensive coral die due to water params, I could easily go to someone else's house and snag some of their water, put my dead coral in it, and take it to the LFS to test. If the coral isn't polypd out, dont buy it. You take the risk, if you don't know what youre buying, don't buy it. If you think you could save it, and that's why youre buying it, good luck.... Point is, LA is not LFS.

[murkywaters]

To me you should buy mainly from an LFS you trust anyway. Get to know them. Watch how they care for the animals . Benefits are many. At the LFS WYSIWYG. Prices are generally comparable to Internet stores and no shipping charge. You have someone to guide you in your decisions. My B/F doesn't hesitate to call our favorite LFS and ask for advice. There are too many people out there doing dumb things with their tanks to ensure a coral will endure it. And you can't hire a detective to find out if they followed the instructions. Also have you seen the warranty honored? I imagine many will post that warranty without honoring it.

[Louis]

Richard hit the nail on the head like he always does. This business is not about making profit. If I didn't absolutely love what I do I wouldn't do it.

That said, I can't guarantee anything will live for any span of time once it leaves the store. There is no way to know without a doubt that all proper acclimation procedures were followed just as there is no way to know that anyones tank is capable of keeping "insert fish/coral name here" I've seen healthy fish that have no signs of parasites, eat out of our hands, and have been at the store for weeks leave the shop to die two days later.

Now that doesn't mean that we (retailers) are totally heartless, countless times I've worked deals with existing customers if their newly purchased livestock didn't live for more than a few hours. But there is still no guarantee and I use my discretion as to weither or not I will offer any form of replacement. If we started charging for our advice, information and experience then the added margins would make it easy to give a guarantee. Instead we help and give advice and try to make every customer happy, then when it comes down to making a sale we get haggled and either drop the price or lose the sale. In a business where margins are so small to begin with it's usually better to move the inventory than to sit on it.

These etailers are making it very difficult to keep a brick and morter business. Very much like Walmart, buying in bulk and selling for dollars over cost. These places are much more like wholesalers who use their buying power to take business away from traditional retailers.

I think I speak for the better LFS that we do our best to increase survivability of every animal that comes to the store. We are always willing to help and attempt to solve anything that may be troubling your aquarium. We will always try to give you the best deal on any and everything that you buy. Our advice is always free and we'll be just a phone call or short drive away if you need us. So why would you want to shop online for animals you have not seen with your very eyes and give business to someone who has never been there to lend an ear or an idea? Keep the business local, keep the little money this hobby generates in our home town and maybe, just maybe, one day our LFS will have the customer funded financial backing it needs to invent/implement better husbandry methods that might insure increased survivability. Then we wouldn't have to discuss guarantees at all. Just a thought.

Louis

[JimD]

"These etailers are making it very difficult to keep a brick and morter business. Very much like Walmart, buying in bulk and selling for dollars over cost. These places are much more like wholesalers who use their buying power to take business away from traditional retailers."

Exactly!

[jroescher]

Order exactly what I want when I want it, deliver it, evaluate all my water parameters and equipment, slowly acclimate it, place it in my tank in the proper place and guarantee it for the first year. And since I'm a MAAST member, I want it at 50% off.

Seriously, I (almost) always shop only at the local fish stores that are MAAST sponsers and actively on this board. The information y'all post is about the best customer service I could ask for.

But I'd be lying if I didn't say that price is a big influence on what I buy.

[loans_n_fishes]

Price is a big influence, but I like seeing my purchases in person. There have been several times that I saw a price online that was better than the LFS, but I show them the competing offer and usually get the price pretty close. I know this cannot be done all the time, nor can it be done at the exact price. However, I have gotten the prices pretty close before AND was able to observe the animal. I have also been able to trade some frags for partial payment at times.

I don't bargain for everything I purchase, but if I am short on cash or the prices are significantly different, I ask about my options.

[Headless_donkey]

I think many good points have been raised. First of all, LFS owners and employees need to be thanked for their free advice and guidance. I know many times I have gone into a LFS, talked about my algae problem for an hour, and then walked out empty handed. When you pay a higher price at a LFS, that "free" advice is part of what you are buying.

That being said, I have no problem mail ordering things the LFS does not carry. It has also been my experience that if you ask a LFS to order something for you they can get it. The livestock may not be there the next day, but who doesn't have time to wait in this hobby.

More and more I am trying to buy livestock that has been captive bread or aquacultured. I know it might not fit a sound business model, but it would be cool if there were a LFS that specialized in growing there own. I understand the LFS try to order from reputable suppliers, but they don't know exactly where the livestock comes from. This lack of certainty makes me lean toward buying coral, not from the LFS, but from other hobbyist.

Enough already! I do my absolute best to support local fish stores I trust and understand that if we all stop shopping with them they will go away. BTW river city offers a 24hr guarantee on all fish.

[Bill S]

I also try and keep my business at LFS. There are times when it just doesn't make sense - like a group order for cleanup crew. Having spent 8 years working in a very large LFS - many, many years ago - I know how difficult a business it is. Most owners will tell you that livestock is break even.

As far as guarantees, that is an owner issue. If one decides to offer a guarantee, that cost will be added into the prices they charge. So, you, the consumer, will pay for that incremental part of the price increase to offset the replacements made to the folks who don't know what they are doing. Look at it this way. Say a fish sells for $20 in Store A, with no guarantee, and $22 in Store B with a guarantee. Which would you choose?

We had a guarantee on all fish. 100% on freshwater, 50% on saltwater. 7 days. Aclimation instructions were included with each purchase, and the guarantee required return of the item (frozen) and a water sample for testing. This process REALLY cut down on the claims. To the LFS owners, how SURE are you that when you sell livestock, that they person buying it KNOWS how to aclimate it? And does so according to YOUR instructions?

Anyway, I'll continue to support the local stores when I can. As Louis knows, I buy a LOT of salt. I've found prices on Reef Crystals ranging from $32 on line (plus shipping, but when you buy 10 buckets, it's only $2 a bucket), to $60 locally. I buy it from Louis at a decent price, but certainly not $34! But, I'm also shopping for a chiller. I'm hard pressed to pay a $200 premium to buy locally, I think...