Sump/Refugium contest.

[tomanero]

Hey all,
I'm planning a 55g. with ~30g. sump/refugium and have a few (or a few to many) questions.
1- How to determine pump size needed.
I understand there is a formula (how high water needs to be pushed up, pipe size, # of pipes, etc.).
I have been around long enough to know I'd rather base my decisions on "hands on" info than a formula. (Or perhaps a meeting of the two)
2- to drill or not to drill?
3- if drilled, then where to drill
4- what size to drill
5- everything else I missed

I'm sure your getting the idea by now.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Steve

O, that's right. I mentioned something about a contest.
Bob: "Tell them what they can win, Johnny."
Johnny: "Right Bob.
Winner gets an authentic homemade N.Y. Cheescake."
MAAST members reply: "Johnny, you mean a N.Y. "style" cheescake?"
Johnny: "No, I mean an authentic NY Cheescake (made by Steve's authentic NY wife) ;)
(Cake can be picked up in Austin or will bring to the MAAST meeting next Sunday.)
Winner will be determined by Friday based on content, ease of use (and buildability...if that's a word) and possibly a swimsuit competition should Ace be in first place by Thursday.
"Yeah Ace, you were tasting that cake already till you saw the swimsuit competition, weren't you?" :lol

Thanks again,
Steve

[tomanero]

Why does it show this post at 5pm when I posted it at 11?
Am I not on MAAST time?

[jroescher]

Am I not on MAAST time?


No, your not.

To change the time, go to your PROFILE, then Change Your PostNuke Profile. Then Set to GMT for -6 CST. Set it to Western Europe Time, London, Lisbon, ...

[jroescher]

MagDrive pumps are probably the most popular. Here is a chart of thier performance and prices: http://www.marinedepot.com/a_ph_danner.asp?CartId=

and here is a link to help calculate head loss: http://reefcentral.com/calc/hlc.php. You'll have to determine how much flow you want or need and that depends on a lot of things.

And here is a link for some suggestions on sump design: http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

Drilling your tank depends on what is tempered glass in your tank. Whatever is tempered can't be drilled. Many smaller tanks have tempered bottoms. Outside of that, it's personal preference. Size is determined by the amount of water you want to move. You probably want one size larger than your pump outlet for returns, and one size larger than your returns for the drains.

[tomanero]

John,
Thanks for the time tip and the links.

display tank is 58g. with asst. sps, lps, softies, schrooms, etc.

1) Regarding flow, I guess that's my question. I see how to calculate the rate but I'm not sure how to determine what rate I'm trying to achieve
What factors do I need to consider to determine the proper flow rate?
2) Pressure locking sump baffles.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_3/cav3i1/Baffles/baffles.htm
Looked like a good way to use acrylic baffles on a glass tank especially since I'm always messing with my setups. Anyone ever try this?
3) What are the pluses-minuses of drilling over using an overflow?

[hobogato]

"Yeah Ace, you were tasting that cake already till you saw the swimsuit competition, weren't you?" :lol


so are you saying you dont want me to reply? or is it that you really just wanna see me in a swimsuit :lol :P

there is alot of discussion on flow rate thru the sump. most people agree that you should not use your sump/fuge pumps as your main source of flow in your tank. personal experience (and i have had many tanks) has my current tank at about 10X turnover per hour of my main tank thru the sump.

240 gallon tank - mag 12 and mag 18 as return pumps - flow after head pressure is somewhere over 2000gph.

drilled vs. undrilled:

i have run tanks both ways and will never have a tank that isnt drilled again. too much chance involved. a student of mine just told me on thursday that his "j" tube overflow box lost suction and his tank overflowed - causing several thousand dollars of home damage because it was upstairs. i particularly like drilling in the back with a single, long "calfo" style overflow (kinda like your cheescake example - not a true calfo, but similar) if the tank is only visible from the front and sides. this saves on tank floor space, and most tanks only have tempered bottoms if tempered at all. also, drill for two drains that can each handle the flow of the return pump, that way if a snail or something else gets into one drain, the other can still handle the return flow without putting water on the floor. it will stay more quiet as well if you arent using the drains to their full capacity.

how am i doin so far?

i have never used the pressure baffle idea, mainly because i would be concerned with them failing, and there are only so many ways to set up the baffles in a sump. silicone will hold acrylic baffles in a glass tank if done correctly. questions you will need to answer before deciding on baffle placement include but are not limited to

1. are you going to run an autotopoff (it helps determine the size of the return area since that is where all tank evaporation will show)?
2. is this just a sump or is it a sump/fuge - if just a sump, are you going to have a fuge, and where? i like calfo's idea of a fuge over the display tank so the pods can just flow downstream into the tank, just couldnt fit it into my system that way.

now, the real contest is - is your wife's NY cheescake as good as the "NY style" cheescake that my wife makes - now that is a contest worth judging ;)

[hobogato]

one addition - the overall flow rate in the tank is also much debated. most people agree that for acros and other sps, you should strive for more than 30X turnover of the display volume per hour - some people have MUCH more than that (cough, cough, brian...). in my tank, i have about 60X per hour. this (also debated) need to be random flow, not laminar for the best polyp extension and health of some of the harder to keep sps - like table acros.

[urban79]

:P go BIG :P thats all I can say.. Do I win..

[urban79]

woops

[caferacermike]

I'd say use an Eheim 1250 or 1260 throttled down (or do as I do and tee it off to a refugium) for your return pump. I wouldn't rely on the return pump as your main source of flow unless you drillt he tank in numerous places for a closed loop type return with an Ocean Motions squirt randomly redirecting the flow. Personally I'd look at a set of Tunze nano's on wavemakers or a Tunze wavebox for internal flow within the tank. I agree wholeheartedly that flow is super important. I am also a firm believer in 30x the tank volume. Not only for SPS tanks but even for softie tanks. Leathers exude a slime coating that must be periodically brushed away. The flow in the tank helps remove that coating allowing the leathers to fully open their tentacles. You'll see this often with sarco's. People with low flow often ask why their toadstools never have that fuzzy look of my toadstools. It's simple, the wax like coating is preventing them from extending. This is one reason I believe in high flow even for softie tanks. Another reason is your filtration, whatever it may be works better if the detritus is suspended in the tank. If it can't be blown over to the pickup tube or overflow, it just sits and rots.

One reason I say to use the smaller return pump and larger internal prop pumps is you don't want to much flow through your sump, maybe 5-10 times per hour is a good number. You don't want your particulate matter being forced by a skimmer so quickly it just shoots by the intake and back into the tank. Also if using any sort of mechanical filtration, IE:sponge, then you don't want the water hitting it so hard, be it falling suction water or forced return water, so as to push the detritus through the sponge and back into the tank.

Drilled tanks are far easier. I've never lost suction in a HOT overflow myself, and have lost power hundreds of times since installing one (I unplug the return when doing water changes), but I am more comfortable knowing that no matter what the water will be contained in the drilled system.

Another important point is to make sure your sump overflow, bubble traps, are not set so high as to allow the sump to overflow in the event of power failure. There are also more subtle things to keep in mind like drilling small holes in return piping to allow a suction break in the event of a power failure, this will prevent the display from draining back into the sump through the return pump. Also building the correct durso standpipes to reduce gurgling or flushing noises. Other tricks like drilling and tapping the hole in the durso to fit a Guest type fitting 90 degree elbow, some 1/4" tubing and a ballvalve in the stand so YOU control how far the water falls in the overflow box to prevent the crashing water sound. Plus mounting a valve in the stand prevents having to hear the sucking noise of the air as it is pulled into the durso. My systems run virtually silent with only the calm sounds of a small stream or burbling brook in the background. That is very important to me.

I use a quick formula to make sure my sump is large enough to handle my tanks volume in the event of a power failure. Using a tank volume calculator I insert my tanks length x width x 4" (all measurements in inches), this gives me a good idea of how many "extra" gallons I need in my sump for good insurance. 1" is all my display ever drops but having that extra few inches sure lets me rest easier.

Another point is all skimmers react differently to the heigth inside the sump. Generally 6-8" is optimal.

I believe we met at the last meeting and you live in ATX right? You are more then welcome to drop by and visit anytime and look at some of the things I am referring to.

[caferacermike]

Oh and if you need to drill the tank (I'd just get a reef ready myself) I'd get 2 1" holes drilled. Run a 1" durso for suction side and a 1" line to the return bulkhead, trimmed to a 3/4" adapter and 3/4" return from there to the tank.

[caferacermike]

Almost forgot, why Ehiem for a few dollars more then Magdrive? Simple. They use half the electricity for the same GPH and last 4-10 times as long as Mags. GPH is the measurement that measures the power of ther pump. Wattage only relates to how much electricity is used to obtain that GPH. The less wattage/more GPH the higher the efficiency. Less wattage/more GPH also translates into less heat build up in the tank. It is common knowledge that switching from Mags to Eheims lowers a tanks temp by 1-3 degrees. So why waste electricity converting it to heat energy that you will have to overcome with even more elctricity such as AC or a chiller? I say convert the extra savings to higher ouput lighting or let the savings pay for the pump itself.

[tomanero]

Ace,
Want you to reply, definately.
See you in a swimsuit, definately NOT. lol
Regarding the cheescake. As good? As good? Now we have a contest.
Back to the tank:
What is the right way to add acrylic baffles to a glass tank?

Mike,
Thanks for the reply and will take you up on the offer to check out your system. I PM'd you with my phone #. Give me a call.

[Texreefer]

get you a thingy and put it into a thingy then attach the other thingy to it and that will increase your flow through the bottom thingy,,,, when do i get my thingy :P just kidding obviously because these guys sound like they have it covered

[tomanero]

I'm with you, TR.
They do sound like they have it covered.
"Now if I just knew what a durso stabdpipe was. Hmmm."

I have an Italian disease called "funzaloo" that limits my reef expansion.




funzaloo = funds are low >_<

[erikharrison]

you should add that to the urban dictionary. For those Dane Cook fans, you may recognize this word, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snarky
I googled it!

[tomanero]

We have an early leader in the cheesecake contest. (No names, but I interrupted their dinner to check out their tanks) :blink

Tried my hand at drilling glass on an old 15g. tank with a small crack last night. Tried it with carbide tile hole saw.
No more small crack. Now pile of glass.
Looks like I'm going with the overflow box I have on the sump/fuge system.

Ace,
So far your doing o.k. ;)

On your tank do your have additional circulation inside the tank besides from the two Mag pumps?

On my system it's going to be a sump/fuge based on this link
http://aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=53046
with variations based on the expert advice of my fellow MAAST'ers

Thanks to all who've contributed.

[Bill S]

A "pile of glass" sounds like it was tempered. My circulation on my 215 is over 9000 gph. I think Ace has 4 Seio 2600s, plus a couple of big Mag pumps from his sump. I'd say he's between 12,000 and 15,000 gph.

I'm going to be redoing my 55 sometime soon, with a sump/fuge system I'll have Ace build. Since it isn't drilled, I'll use 2 or 3 overflow boxes - redundancy. I want to get rid of my 5 powerheads and do some closed loops.

[Chicken_Eye]

"Now if I just knew what a durso stabdpipe was. Hmmm."

here is a pic of my durso Standpipe with my custom strainer to keep snails out of it.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/quads4_life/100gal%20reef/DSC02441.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/quads4_life/100gal%20reef/DSC02443.jpg

And here are a few pics of my sump and drain system that I built

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/quads4_life/100gal%20reef/DSC02285.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/quads4_life/100gal%20reef/DSC02429.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/quads4_life/100gal%20reef/DSC02428.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/quads4_life/100gal%20reef/DSC02430.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/quads4_life/100gal%20reef/DSC02412.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v723/quads4_life/100gal%20reef/DSC02409.jpg

[brewercm]

On the dursos and if you go the route of the corner overflows with them. I'd suggest putting eggcrate over the top of the corner boxes to keep the snails out of your tubes and fish out of your overflows. Nothing like having to spend hours trying to fish out a six line wrasse that's jumped into your overflows. Matter of fact if the back is going to be open I'd recommend putting eggcrate across the back also if possible. Fish cost too much to lose one that decides to go carpet surfing.

My sump design that I'll be using will be in a post shortly for my new 140 I'm putting up. I'm going with a Sequence dart external pump that will be teed off to run the skimmer and the rest will be going out of a return manifold that has six outlets that actually sits over the tank and the outlets just sit under the water level. I'll also be running a Tunze 6060, Seio 1500, and possibly a modified Maxijet 1200. I prefer the external pump myself because I just believe that they are a truer representation of the GPH you are getting for your pump. I've had both an internal 1200GPH pump and a little giant 1100 GPH pump and the little giant kicked it's butt.

[tomanero]

Cliff,
Sounds sweet. I'm looking forward to your post.
I have a Terminator II skimmer that I was going to use.
Will the skimmer be inside/outside the sump.
I have a Terminator II that I want to run outside the sump (has a LARGE footprint) so I can have a larger fuge area inside the sump.
Everyday I change something else on the design.

[tomanero]

CE,
Nice system. Did you drill it yourself?

[brewercm]

Mine can go either but I'm setting it in the sump since the space is there. Also just incase there are any backups or overflows of the skimmer it just goes back into the tank until I can get to it.

[Chicken_Eye]

On the dursos and if you go the route of the corner overflows with them. I'd suggest putting eggcrate over the top of the corner boxes to keep the snails out of your tubes and fish out of your overflows. Nothing like having to spend hours trying to fish out a six line wrasse that's jumped into your overflows. Matter of fact if the back is going to be open I'd recommend putting eggcrate across the back also if possible. Fish cost too much to lose one that decides to go carpet surfing.


On my Durso pipe if you look an the intake you can see I stuffed a piece of eggcrate to keep snails out because I had a large snail crawl up in it and block the drain luckly the other side handled it. And I went fishing for my Yellow watchman gobie that jumped into my overflow. So I put gutterguard around the overflows to keep him out. It has worked great sofar. You just have to keep an eye on the overflows to make sure you dont get alge buildup on the gutter guard.

[tomanero]

CE,
Mind if I ask what you paid for the glass baffles?
And what did you use to drill the tank?
The bottom wasn't tempered?
The netting over the overflow is a great idea.
Don't patten it until I finish mine. lol
That looks great.

[Chicken_Eye]

I paid about 20.00 for the 3 glass baffles and the 1 lexan. The tank was already drilled but I use a diamond tiped hole saw that you can purchase on ebay. As for the overflow I did a small how to on putting it on It only takes about 30 min. I will post the link to the howto

[Chicken_Eye]

Here is the link to my little overflow protection for small fish

http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=24238

[tomanero]

CE,
Did you get the baffles cut at a glass supplier or a Home Depot/Lowes store?
Are you going to the MAAST meeting Sunday?
(Never mind. I just MapQuested to see where Pampa was. That's a long haul.)
Overflow looks great. Will definately be part of my system.
Thanks for the input.

[LoneStar]

I had a 55g reef tank with a custom sump I built. I got away with a hang on back overflow. I had a tank from a 'unkown' manufacturer; because I bought it used. The glass was pretty thin so I was a little weary of drilling it. Depending on which manufacturer you go with, will depend on how thick the glass will be. Oceanic tanks utilize thicker glass. If you do not get a 'reef ready' tank, then drilling the backside for a drain would work best. Most tanks are tempered on the bottom, so drilling there is not a option.

Just remember you get what you pay for!

I know you have a small footprint, but I would utilize as much space as possible.

the sump:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a142/LoneStarSA/75g%20Build/sumpredone3.jpg

the sump on my old tank:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a142/LoneStarSA/Saltwater%20MAAST/Filtrationsmaller.jpg

I would second the use of a Eheim pump. Well built and definatly worth it. External pumps will give you more flow with less heat. Just remember submersible pumps generate extra heat in the water. On my old tank I used a Sequence Dart to run my skimmer, return line, and chiller. Worked out great! But on my new tank build, I'll just be using the Dart for the return only.

My sump and fuge were easy to build, even with their complex shapes. I believe all the material only cost me ~$100 at Regal Plastics. I drew up all the pieces, and they cut them out for me. Then I glued them up at my house. Just make sure you have access to a lot of clamps! I really like using acrylic for sumps because you can easily modify it in the future (i.e. drilling or plugging bulkhead holes, adding baffles or boxes).

[caferacermike]

Lonestar that set up is crazy cool. Good work. I have only one question. You say you ran a dart for the return pump. That's a whole lot of flow right? About 3,600GPH, zero head so about 2,800 working GPH from what I've read. Wasn't that water just screaming through your sump? I've always read they make great closed loop pumps but that would be way to much flow through a small sump/fuge.

[tomanero]

LS,
Sump looks great. I went in and ordered acrylic at Regal today.
CE,
Did you do anything different to seal the acrylic baffle than the glass ones?
CRMike,
I know I saw your overflows (for those that haven't seen they're sweet and QUIET) but not sure about putting them together. I have a couple of questions for ya at the meeting.
Thanks again to all for your input.

[Chicken_Eye]

I had the glass cut at a local glass company


The only thing I did to the acrylic is I used sandpaper and roughed up the edges so that the silicone would adhear to the acrylic. To cut the teeth in it I just drilled each hole 1" down and 1" apart then used a drimmel and very slowly finished cutting the slots. The one thing I did not do was when I drilled out 1" from the edge I would drill a couple more holes between the edge and the hole 1" down. It will make dremmeling it out easier

I wish I could come for a meeting but it is about a 9-10 hr drive for me just to SA