Plumbing: In Over My Head?

[demodiki]

OK. I am feeling somewhat in over my head when it comes to plumbing my sump into my main. My working class roots had nothing to do with PVC :(

So, I have some probably pretty basic questions:
Valves: check valves? Good/bad? I have read both. True union and ball valves? It looks like I need bunches of these. Which ones do I get? Where do I get these locally? Or should I buy online? They seem expensive :)

PVC: I figured I need sched 40 PVC...do I get this at Lowes? What do I cut this with? I have one inch bulkheads...do I need one inch PVC? Also, I see when you join PVC together you do so by 'gluing' the pieces together...how do you do this when both pieces are the same width (one inch)?

Solvent/Glue: Can I just get this at Lowes as well? Anything NOT to get? Do I need the purple primer?

I know these are very basic questions and I feel like I have researched this to death before finally breaking down and just asking. Anything else I should watch out for?

TIA!

[LoneStar]

Not local but its a whole lot cheaper here:
www.savko.com

Valves: Ball valves work on almost all applications. True union ball valves are nice if you want to dish out a little more money. Basically you eliminate a few pieces in-line. Plus they can save on space too. Lowes sells some true union ball valves. A gate valve is nice for precise measuring the water flow. This is mostly used on the output side of a skimmer, depending on which type you have. But they can also be used anywhere in the system.

PVC: Most PVC you buy at the hardware stores is sched 40. If you don't know, just look at the pipe itself...it has it printed on it. Usually sch 40 is white. You can cut smaller diameter PVC with a ratcheting PVC cutter. It really does not leave a clean, flush cut though. I would use a hand saw or hack saw. If you got a miter saw, that would work even better! Match the diameter up with your bulkheads to the diameter of the PVC pipe. So a 1" bulkhead is designed to have a 1" PVC pipe connected to it. Buy a package of primer and glue. Use the 'purple' primer to clean off the joint on both sides. Then apply a generous amount of PVC glue in both joints. Slide the pipe into the fitting and then turn it a quarter turn. That way the glue will be applied all over. Sometimes you have to hold them together for 30 seconds before the glue sets.

One thing to be aware of is the use of unions!! Try to use these on any plumbing that may have to be removed on the system (I.E. a return line or drain line) If you add a union there, you can easily seperate the tank from the stand without having to cut free any pipe. Flexible PVC (Spa-flex) works wonders too! Usually you can bend it around tight spaces where straight pipe would not work. Feel free to ask any questions if they pop up!

:)

[demodiki]

Thanks so much for replying. You mention a 'fitting'? What is this?

[LoneStar]

Thanks so much for replying. You mention a 'fitting'? What is this?

Well it could be a elbow (90, 45, 30 degree) a tee, a union, a bulkhead....Pretty much anything you will attatch to a PVC pipe. It just depends on what you want to connect and what purpose it will serve.

[demodiki]

OK...this is what I have come up with. Does this work? Also, I have not quite figured out where unions would go :)
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/7509/plumbingba5.th.jpg (http://img104.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plumbingba5.jpg)
I know this looks like I drew it with Crayolas but I'm in a hurry!

[5.0Stang]

O yea buy GOOD gate valves i broke the handle off mine cause its stuck wide open and now im SOL

[Bill S]

I isolated my big pump from the PVC with a rubber union - it's a sleeve with clamps that slides over the PVC. Did a real good job of quieting things.

[caferacermike]

I was going to say you had a great write up. Plumbing is my line of work and good info has been given. I'll add a bit more. If you wipe the ends down with a clean rag you won't need any primer as you are not workign with any real pressures here. If using any valves or unions keep in mind that they SERIOUSLY restrict flow. I buy the next size up and bush them back down. Chackvalves, I wouldn't use them in our tanks unless you have a seriously bad*** pump. Most of them will restrict the flow to a trickle in our 900GPH type pumps. Bumping up a size only makes it worse as the springs are stronger. If by any chance a shell or bit of substrate were to ever end up in the check it would prove useless. We install strainers before our ours as protection. If you solely relied upon a checkvalve and it somehow satyed open, even a smidge, you'd back drain your tank to whatever level your returns are. Stick with the tried and true 3/32" -1/4" hole near the surface of the water to break the back siphon when exposed.

[tomanero]

Just my two cents:
1- Dry fit all your pieces together. Make sure every angle is as you want it.
Take a sharpie and draw a straight line across the end of each pipe to its attached fitting.
Then when you glue the pieces together just line up the lines and you'll know it's perfect.
2- I've not done any fish tank plumbing (new to reefing, only home plumbing) but considering the lack of pressure I'd try and make the turns more gradual. 45 degree turns are tight and I'd think pretty restrictive. Caferacermike would know if this is the case.
3- If your worried about taking pieces apart glue male and female connectors to the pipe end and screw the pieces together (or unscrew as the need arises). Make sure to take the size difference between glued unions and these pieces into consideration before cutting pipes.

[demodiki]

Thanks guys...still not sure how these unions work. I was playing at Lowes with some unions (the workers kept a sharp eye on me) and couldn't figure out how they worked :) I see each end screws off...but where does the PVC go? I couldn't fit a one inch PVC pipe into the union. You're probably all laughing about now :)

[Richard]

see each end screws off...but where does the PVC go? I couldn't fit a one inch PVC pipe into the union. You're probably all laughing about now


Sounds like you are looking at the compression type unions (actually called couplings I think) if so you don't want those kind. You want something like this
http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/52-333-pvc-unions-and-couplings/union-116467.aspx

Don't worry, everyone has a blank nervous look on their face the first time they plumb up a tank. By the time you've wasted a 100 bucks or so on parts you'll be an expert.

[SA-DSM]

I am doing the same thing you are right now. Just got back from lowes about an hour ago. Take what you have in there, and grab one of the workers and start asking questions. That is the only way you will find out. Good luck.

[demodiki]

I could not find some of the things at Lowes...such as valves...
Here is what I am going to order from Savko. Let me know if this looks right :)
Schedule 40 Gate Valve (PVC) (X4) http://savko.com/PartList.asp?pgid=1&ptid=1&pid=6
Sch. 40 Standard Tee (X1) http://savko.com/PartList.asp?pgid=3&ptid=14&pid=98
Sch. 40 45 Elbow (X4) http://savko.com/PartList.asp?pgid=3&ptid=14&pid=99

Does this stuff look right according to my Crayola drawing above?

Trying not to make mistakes and spend $100. I haven't told my wife about the new skimmer yet :(

[Richard]

Why 4 gate valves? I only see three on your drawing and I would not use one on the drain.

[jroescher]

I'm pretty certain that Lowe's carries everything you listed. You must have gotten a clerk that just didn't know what you were asking for.

PVC pipe and fittings are cheap. And the cans of primer and glue go a long way. Buy an extra pipe and few fittings and play aound with glueing it all together. Get the hang of it on scraps because once you glue a fitting, theres no undoing it. Period.

[caferacermike]

How about I make a trip over and help sort it out? PM me. Evenings after 6:00pm if'n I got to drive to RR.

[demodiki]

@Richard:
I think I just like spending my wife's hard-earned money.

@Mike:
I may take you up on that. I'll take you out to eat at the Tilted Kilt but only if you go for that sort of thing :)

[demodiki]

I got my Durso standpipe in the mail as well as the two bulkheads. I wonder if I should have gotten a slip fit bulkhead for the return, though? Either way, I am pretty excited.

[stoneroller]

I counted five 45's (you'll need two to make each 90 degree turn) in your drawing and one 90 dropping into your center section

[demodiki]

I haven't made it back up to Lowes yet. I will head up there tomorrow and see if I can find someone to help me find what I need.

[brewercm]

My experience has been to just buy more of everything than you think you need and either keep the receipt and take the rest back or if it's common pieces keep a few on hand.
Once you get going you'll figure out just how easy it really is. I plumbed my old house myself when I lived out in Bandera, then have plumbed all my aquariums since then. A good table saw sure makes the cutting quicker and easier too.

[caferacermike]

be gentle with those threaded bulkheads. If they came with the kit they seem to split easily due to the taper of the NPT male adapter. I went through 4 of them before I switched to slip bottom bulkheads. And that was just hand tight. Here's a thought to confuse you even more. Electrical PVC male adapters(grey stuff in the electric section) are non tapered. I wonder if about 6 wraps of teflon tape would prevent them from leaking? Personally I don't think they will leak as I use them make actual bulkheads. That would help prevent any splitting.

[demodiki]

This thing cannot leak. Our new house has upgraded, very thick carpet. My wife would have my ***.

[brewercm]

Instead of teflon tape I always use a product called great white. It's a liquid form of teflon tape basically that seals much better. There are several brands on the market that have the teflon in them and they come in etiher a small tube or can with brush applicator. Just make sure you get something that is for potable water so it's safe for your reef.

[z28pwr]

You should use ball valves and not gave valves for return pumps and such, you normally only use gate valves for skimmers or someplace where there isn't high pressure and where the flow will need to be controlled.

[demodiki]

Ball valves? I read in a lot of places that ball valves can fail and gates were more dependable.

/shrug

I surely don't know :)

[caferacermike]

What is there to fail?

[demodiki]

I think I was reading on reefcentral that over time, ball valves lose...something...hell, I don't remember. The prevailing advice was to use gate valves if you could. I have never laid eyes on either so I can't say for myself :)

[caferacermike]

Hahaha, No problems The only troubles I've experienced with PVC valves is a tendency to be very sticky due to non use. Then they scale up and it becomes even harder to open or close them.

The best reason to use a butterfly or gatevalve would be because they are the least restrictive.

However, to through fuel on the fire, you can buy 2 types of ball valve. Full flow or restricted. After making ball valves with the pass through hole abotu half the diameter of the pipe some manufacturers decided that it would be best to use a larger ball and differenet casting to create a full flow ball valve.

Globe valves would be the worst of all of them. About the closest to a true globe valve I've seen in PVC, at your regular home store, would be those pvc bibcocks for hooking up a hose to.

[demodiki]

Well, I spent about $45 at Home Depot. I got 10' of 1 inch PVC, 2 ball valves, several slip fittings, 45 degree and 90 degree turns and a Tee. Also picked up a saw, and some solvent. I know I need some more things but figured this would get me started practicing and seeing how thi sstuff will possible fit.

[caferacermike]

I would like to offer 2 more tips. I read way back someone recommended dry fitting the pipe for fit. We are absolutely against such practices in the field. 2 reasons. 1. It is very easy to assume it was glued, forgetting that it was not thus leading to disaster. 2. People do not realize that the fittings have a slight taper. It allows the pipe to only go in 3/4" of the way unless you smash it in with the floor or a hammer. So if you set about putting a few pieces togethe cutting them along the way, you'll quickly come up short on the other end when you begin gluing. To confuse you even more. It is ok to slip them together to get the angle you want and as was mentioned, mark the fitting and pipe so that when you glue them you line up the marks. You'll need to trace your mark 1" down the piep as you'll be surprised when 1/4" or more pushes past what you marked. You are solvent welding the material. Essentially you are melting the pipe and fitting together. The taper disappears as you melt and push the materials together.

The second tip is to not forget to take a knife and cut away all the burrs from cutting the pipe. They interferre with the fit.

BTW the tapered fittings are referred to as an "interferrence fit".

[LoneStar]

I agree with what Mike said about tip number 2. Best way is to do one piece at a time. That way you do not end up short on the end of your project. And after all that PVC glue fumes...you do not want to forget to glue one piece then fill it up with water :)

[demodiki]

Well, construction begins tonight. Wish me luck!

[brewercm]

And after all that PVC glue fumes...you do not want to forget to glue one piece then fill it up with water :)

Couldn't agree more, and even after doing this stuff for years I still made the mistake and of all things with my closed loop 1 1/5" inlet to the pump. Luckily it was in the fitting I forgot to glue was in the garage and the water all ended up there. Amazing how quick a tank can drain out of a 2 inch bulkhead reduced to 1.5 inches once opened up. When I opened the ball valve all I initially heard was glub, glub, glub and knew I was in trouble. :angry

[demodiki]

Yes, I am doing everything in the garage first. I will get the plumbing together...fill with freshwater...let her rip for 24 hours...then drain and move to the living room.

[demodiki]

Dumb question...do I use the same PVC cement to weld my PVC to my bulkheads?

[LoneStar]

Is the bulkhead a threaded fitting or a slip fitting?

[demodiki]

Slip fitting.

[LoneStar]

PVC Cement should hold if the bulkhead is a PVC bulkhead. Just lay it on thick :)

[caferacermike]

I've met a few people that just push it up in there, but those are same people I see with tons of salt creep in their ccabinets.

[demodiki]

OK...I have a few problems.

1)I did just push it up there to test the system and it was leaking a little. I will obviously have to glue it in.
2)The water level in my sump is level. When I throttle the drain down via the valve...the water level goes down in the return section of the sump. So...it appears my pump isn't handling the amount that is being drained. Now, my plumbing has a lot of 90 degree turns and is not helping my cause: Do I...A)get a bigger pump? B)throttle the drain down? C)redo the plumbing and hope that makes up the difference?

Thanks guys!

[Bill S]

Hmm. I went back and reviewed your drawing. Your return pump should be the limiting factor on how much goes down the drain. What happens when the electricity goes off? In other words, it shouldn't matter how big or small your return pump is, your drain(s) should drain the same amount being returned...

[demodiki]

Bill,
Obviously that is not the case and I am not sure what I have done wrong :) I am thinking of redoing my plumbing.

[caferacermike]

I am confused why you'd put a valve in the drain side, except for service. I've had this arument a hundred times and nobody can convince me they actually need it. The best place to put a valve in is on the return side above the pump. One thing to keep in mind is that only the amount being put back into the tank can overflow back to the sump.

[demodiki]

One thing to keep in mind is that only the amount being put back into the tank can overflow back to the sump.

Now THAT I did not know. I did put that valve on the drain side just for maintenance. Well, I am going to glue it all in tomorrow and see what happens.

Stressful :(

[caferacermike]

I offered to make it stress free a long way back..

[demodiki]

I know, Mike, and thanks. We have just moved into a new house, had lots of relatives over to help (?) and I also am in the middle of switching jobs. It would have been difficult to get someone over in my crazy schedule...plus, I was impatient :)

So, I think it is working okay...just can't figure out why the return section is as high as the drain section...

[Bill S]

Maybe I'm missing something here: If the power goes out, will your sump overflow? If so, you HAVE to fix that. You should be feeding your sump via an overflow of some type. This way, no matter how much water you pump back into the tank, the same amount flows back down to the sump. You then have a constant water level in your tank, and you control how much water is in your total system via your sump. You can then control how much water goes thru your sump via your output pump, if you need to. My system has NO valves on it.

[demodiki]

I just have the one valve on the drain and one on an outlet on the return. I think the sump may overflow given that the return part of the sump is level with the drain part.

Hope all that makes sense.

[GeoB]

The only reason I would have a valve on the drain line is to control drain noise and splash, but this is beyond Tank Plumbing 101. The drain line shouldn’t have anything to do with maintaining the water level in your tank or sump. The reason a sump will flood is either 1) the water level in the sump is too high, or 2) the tank drains too much water when you pump is shut off.

It sounds like you are not sure if your sump will overflow. Here is way that might help you check your setup -

With your return pump off and drain valve open:
1) Empty most of the water from your sump.
2) Fill your tank to the point that it starts to overflow to your sump. At this point, if the water level in your tank is lower than you want it, you will need to do something to raise the point at which the water starts to overflow to your sump.
3) IMPORTANT - make sure the outlets in the tank from your sump pump have openings that are above the tank's operating water level. If not, these will act as siphons when your pump is off and will continue draining your tank until their opening is above the water level.
4) Finish filling your sump via your tank. Now you know your sump will not overflow if your sump pump shuts off (no need for a drain valve to do tank maintenance).
5) How high to fill your sump? Ideally you want a) your sump to operate so that the water level in the pump section (during pump operation) is lower than the pervious section to prevent surface film build up in your sump (figure out by trial and error) and b) the amount of water that will be pumped from your sump in the event of a drain clogging to not be more than the unused volume in your tank. If it is, your tank will flood if your drain clogs. (figure out by trial and error using your drain valve to imitate a clogging, or by using geometry).

Hope this helps.

[demodiki]

3) IMPORTANT - make sure the outlets in the tank from your sump pump have openings that are above the tank's operating water level. If not, these will act as siphons when your pump is off and will continue draining your tank until their opening is above the water level.


I think I have seen this but I need some clarification. Does this have to do with my return pump placement in the sump? Little confused.

[GeoB]

No, it has to do with the placement of the return pump outlet(s) in your tank. You need to make sure they don't siphon water back to your sump when your pump shuts off. If they are below the water surface they will siphon until the tank level is low enough and they draw in air breaking the siphon. If you like them below the water surface, you can put small holes in the line near the water surface to break the siphon. Put more than one, though, a snail might be sitting on the hole at the wrong time.

[demodiki]

Ahh yes, I see. I will do this. Tank gets moved into the living room today. I should take pictures.

[demodiki]

Here is the tank after cleaning the front glass.
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8551/plumbing001yu6.th.jpg (http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plumbing001yu6.jpg)
Another shot...
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9564/plumbing002xa7.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plumbing002xa7.jpg)
This is the return side without the pump attached.
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/5553/plumbing007wz9.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plumbing007wz9.jpg)
The drain and return.
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/8682/plumbing008mh9.th.jpg (http://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plumbing008mh9.jpg)

[GeoB]

Your setup looks good. Looks like your tank has a factory overflow, so you shouldn't have to worry about what I was saying in step 2 of my previous post. (My overflows were post factory, so I had to do some tweaking to get the tank water level correct.) Leave the drain ball valve completely open during your setup, you might be able to use it for an emergency or for some advanced stuff, but you should be able to operate your system (including turning it off for maintenance) without needing to close it. The only issue I can imagine you having is if your pump pumps more water than your drain can handle. The drain diameter looks like 1" which according the Reef Central calculator can handle ~600 gph, 1.25" ~900 gph, and 1.5" ~1300 gph. With the ball valve and the union on your drain line, the amounts will be a little lower.

[demodiki]

The drain diameter is, in fact, 1 inch. I am in the process of making RO/DI water...I never imagined this thing being so slow!

One question I have is how much water to put in the main tank...and then how much to put in the sump before I turn on the pump? Thanks for all the advice :)

[caferacermike]

RO is ridiculously slow. For example I have a 300gpd unit. 24hrsx60mins=1440mins in a day. 1440/300gpd= 1g every 5 mins. So to fill a 5g jug it takes approximately 30 mins. But I had a membrane burst so I'm now bypassed to 200gpd. This means it takes about 45 mins to actually make 5g of water. As your membranes get used it gets even slower.

Assuming you have a 75gpd unit (very common) 1440/75= 1g ever 20 minutes.

[demodiki]

30 hours for 90 gallons...wow. The tank is about 2/3rds full now. I need to get the tank/sump running with salt for 24 hours....get all of my LR over here from the other tank....then acclimate fish/corals...then break down the other tank. I have to do this by Wednesday (when we have to be out of the old apartment).

[demodiki]

I had to go buy water to get this thing started :(

Here is the issue. This drain is flushing a lot. I am thinking that the air hole in my Durso is not big enough? I misplaced the instructions for the Durso in the move and his website is down. Keep drilling bigger?

[Bill S]

Try taking a piece of small tubing and putting it down the Durso hole. It needs to go down past the drain. This keeps the drain from "burping", as it lets trapped air get out and back to the top.

[demodiki]

The sump is leaking. :(

[demodiki]

...and so is one of my bulkheads :(

[demodiki]

So, I go the sump filled and turned on. Here is the question: Should the water in the drain be so turbulent? It's 'belching' water out of the sump at times! There are no microbubbles in the tank.
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/7746/aquarium002lw2.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aquarium002lw2.jpg)
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2579/aquarium005tr9.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aquarium005tr9.jpg)
The Durso level seems fine. No fluctuations.
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/5114/aquarium006ul6.th.jpg (http://img128.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aquarium006ul6.jpg)
As you can see...the return area looks fine.
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/8614/aquarium004rw4.th.jpg (http://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aquarium004rw4.jpg)

TIA!

[Bill S]

Danny,

If you are getting "belching", you are dragging too much air down the drain with the water. Seriously, try a piece of tubing thru the top of your durso, to below the level of the drain. This will allow trapped air to escape.

[caferacermike]

I do it one better, and can probably help, I tap my durso cap to fit 1/4"NPT threads and install a threaded Guest 90. To that I run a length of tubing and a ball valve back into my stand. This way I can control the air into the durso and it is silent due to being located under the stand.

[demodiki]

What I have done in the meantime is dial down my drain via the ball valve. I know this is not an ideal solution because now things can get stuck in there. I am going to go try the tubing trick and see if that works. In the next couple of days I will try Mike's idea. I guess it wasn't really belching but...just throwing a lot of water into the sump and roiling it something fierce. The salt creep would have been astronomical.

[demodiki]

Update:
When setting up a Two Little Fishes phosban reactor....read the directions first! I just spent an hour siphoning (most) of the phosban granules from my refugium.