what happend here?

[jessinator752]

i bought this coral from the local pet store. here is a picture of it the day i got it: http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p300/jessinator752/starfishandcauliflower.jpg i was told that it can be in the light and it will use the same liquid food as all my other soft corals. 5 days later it seems to be disintegrating. here is a picture of it from this morning: http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p300/jessinator752/pic0011.jpg and now there is just a little piece of the top left. my fish, hermit crabs, and snails have been picking at it all morning. any ideas what happend?

[Texreefer]

Hard to tel from Pic but looks like a carnation coral, if it is they are very picky with water quality and do not like light.. low indirect light is the best like under a ledge, if it is disintigrating i would get it out before it fouls up the water too bad

[jessinator752]

i ran a test on my water this morning and my levels are actually lower now than they were 3 days ago.

[Texreefer]

What levels?

[caferacermike]

Are you in Austin? Is this a piece that the Dome had in last week?

[jessinator752]

my ph is at 8.2, nitrite was at .5 but is now down to .25, my ammonia was at .5 but is now at .25, and my nitrate was at 80 but is now at 40. i bought this from a pet store in killeen last friday and did a partial water change on monday. maybe my water temp wasn't as close as i thought so maybe the water change is what killed it. this is my first tank so i'm still pretty new to all this stuff. i made sure to ask a lot of questions before i bought it, but i guess i didn't get all the facts. live and learn. i just feel so bad that i killed my coral. but i bought an orange sponge the same day and it's doing great.

[Texreefer]

the guys on this site can give you some great advice.. a lot of experience here,, someone can correct me if i'm wrong here but with those levels your tank is still cycling,, i would not put anything else in the tank until you get the Nitrite and Amonia to Zero and your Nitrates at least down to 20 or lower. if i had to guess i would say your tank is 4-6 weeks old? do you have a skimmer? give us some tank info lighting filtration etc. so we can better help you move in the right direction

[fishcrazy]

Hope you didn't put the sponge in the light.

[jessinator752]

actually i bought the tank off of craigslist back in sept. it was a complete set up. it's a 29 gal tank. i did buy a skimmer for it about 5-6 weeks ago. it's made by lee. the filter is a penguin 200 bio wheel for up to 50 gal tank. i've also got a turbo-twist 3x 9 watt uv sterilizer. i'm not sure what the lighting is, but it's made by odyssea and it sits above the tank so the top of the tank is open rather than enclosed. here is a link for a picture of the full tank: http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p300/jessinator752/PHOT02.jpg and yes, at the moment i do have my sponge in the light because i was told that light won't hurt it. is that wrong? i guess the gal at the pet store was just wanting the sale and not giving me the correct info. if i need to put it in the dark i'll have to arrange my tank to allow for that.

[Texreefer]

if the tank has been up for that long then we need to look for the source of the amonia and nitrites.. have you added new liverock or re-arranged the tank lately?. continue to do small daily waterchanges to get those levels down.

[jessinator752]

yes, i rearranged my tank about 2 weeks ago because i bought a piece of sun coral from the same pet store and found out while i was acclimating it that it has to be in a dark area of the tank, so i needed to make a spot for it. she keeps all her corals in the open light and says that it won't hurt any of them. i guess that should have been my first clue that i can't trust what she says because i found out later that the sun coral needed to be in the dark. there aren't many saltwater shops in this area so i go there a lot, but i think i'm going to have to find a new shop. i have 7 fish in my tank. does that make a difference?

[JimD]

7 fish would explain the elevated nitrates for sure and is probably responsible for the coral death. A nitrite level of anything above zero is unacceptable, at .5 your tank is at risk. The skimmer you have probably isnt enough to handle the bio-load and youre seeing the nitrate accumulation. Several small water changes are in immidiate order. Reduce feeding, be more aggressive with blowing off the detritus from the rocks and in stagnent areas of the tank during a water changes and, dont add any more livestock until you get your parameters to acceptable levels.

[jessinator752]

so in a tank this size what should i have? or better what do i need to get rid of? everything seems to be growing and spreading so i tbought everything was fine. i've acutally brought the levels down from what they were when i first got the tank. so is having a lot of corals ok, i just need to keep the fish down? or do i need to thin out my corals as well? thank you so much for all the advice. i'm still learning. i want to take care of what i have, i'm just not sure what i all need to do.

[Texreefer]

give us a list of corals and fish

[Texreefer]

Fyi the sun coral needs to be fed a couple times a week with a baster or syringe.. EACH polyp feeds seperately ,not as a colony and yes it prefers to be in the shaded areas as well,, i would not buy anything else from that place without researching it first to find out its needs. she sounds like she just wants to make the sale.

[jessinator752]

yes, i know how to take care of it now. i posted a question a while back on here asking for advice. :) now about that list. i'm not sure what everything is i'll just post a link to some close ups of what i have in the tank. i know i have mushrooms: red, purple, yellow, and green; pulsing xiena (about 12 staulks) orange sponge, sun coral, red bubble tip, and two purple/blue clams. http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p300/jessinator752/Picture24.jpg http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p300/jessinator752/closeupofmushrooms.jpg http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p300/jessinator752/bubbletip.jpg http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p300/jessinator752/Picture27.jpg http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p300/jessinator752/clamandzoos.jpg http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p300/jessinator752/fullview.jpg

[jessinator752]

i forgot my fish. i have 2 clarkii clowns, 2 domino damsels, 2 blue damsels, and a black damsel with yellow in it's tail. i have a bunch of hermit crabs, about 15 snails, and 2 tiny star fish.

[Bill S]

Nitrates at 40, you won't have much luck with anything but fish. As noted above, ammonia, and nitrites MUST be at ZERO. Otherwise, your tank is cycling. What fish do you have in the tank, and how big are they?

Edit: Dang, you just posted your fish...

[jessinator752]

the fish are about an inch to inch and a half

[caferacermike]

And growing.

[jessinator752]

true. but i do plan to get a larger tank as soon as i can afford to. then i will be moving most if not all my stuff from my 29 gal to my larger one. i've got the fever, and it's getting worse. i've heard once you switch to saltwater you never go back to freshwater, but i didn't believe it. well, now i do. i just need to learn a lot more before i make the switch. i should have learned a lot more before i got this tank, but it was a great deal and i couldn't pass it up. i've only added a few things to it: sun coral, sponge, and the carnation coral that died. other than that everything came as a package.

[aggie4231]

with your clowns and damsel in that size tank, its like your containing a large stick of dynamite. all of those fish get aggresive. the only reason you are have aggresive behavior is because no one can become the dominante fish.

also do you pc lights or Metal halide. the clams really need high light.

the lee's skimmer is on about hte same level as the sea clowns, i mean sea clone skimmers, basically not worth the money you paid. if you still have the biowheels on the filter take them out.

the sun coral, from what i have seen, doesnt care about light levels. as long as you feed it, it will stay happy. i keep mine in medium flow, and it is doing better than when it was in lower flow.

[jessinator752]

so i should have either the clowns or the damsels? like i said, i didn't stock the tank. i bought it this way so i just assumed everything was ok to have together. but i guess that handy phrase about assumptions kicks in right about here ;) i thought what i have is high light. i don't have the box for the light any longer, but when i got it the guy said this was a high light so the corals will grow. as far as the skimmer, what you're saying is i bought a low quailty one and i should really get a better one? what's wrong with the bio wheel? i was told that they are good to have because they keep the bacteria in the tank which is what you want. i've had many freshwater tanks, and always done really well with them. this is my first saltwater tank and it seems a lot more complicated.

[aggie4231]

your biowheels are basically the source of high nitrates. aslong as you have live rock and live sand, you will have the denitrifying bacteria in the tank.

about lights. there is high light then there is high light. you can have high wattage of lights. then you have high par lights. t5 and metal halide have higher and more proper par levels especially for sps and clams.

i would keep your clowns. if you are planning on upgrading soon, then keep all the fish possibly. from what i have seen domino damsels can get pretty mean. ive seen 1 try to bully and take on a trigger, and lets just say the damsels never learned it lesson. usually they dominate other smaller fish.

[jessinator752]

ok. so how do i catch the fish without having to take all my rock out? i've been considering getting rid of the dominos and the other black damsel, i just have no idea how to catch them without taking everything out which is why i've been putting it off.

how do i know what kind of lights i have?

[Texreefer]

considering what was in the tank they are most likely power compacs

[jessinator752]

so would that be a high quailty light? i mean, good for my corals and clams? i don't do the technical side of things that's normally my husband's department. :)

[Enigma13]

PC's are OK for fish only or for some lower light softies. They also can be great as actinic supplements. However, for most coral you are going to want your main light source to be MH or T-5. If you are thinking about upgrading to a larger tank I would just hold out, save your money and get the lighting right on the new tank.

[jessinator752]

ok. again thank you everyone for your help/advice.

[brewercm]

Looks like the lighting is alright for the corals that I can see in there although I may have missed one that requires more light. For the time being put the clams as high as possible so they get as much light as they can until you can get a little better light for them.
If you wanted to stick to that size tank and not have to go larger unless you just want to you could easily hang a nice halide pendant above the tank and get plenty of light. What's nice with this option is if you get a 250 watt and upgrade to a larger tank later you can easily use that light and just add another if needed. These tend to cover an area around 2' x 2' spread.

[matt]

I would consider selling the tridacna clams and any more expensive/delicate corals you have to people with more established tanks. Or, maybe you can find someone to hold them while you re-think your set up. .5 PPM ammonia, if that's an accurate reading, is an environmental disaster for a 6 month old reef tank and indicates pretty clearly that something is not right. Usually it means something big has just died, and the tank will recover once you remove the dead animal. In your case, though, it looks like you're just way overstocked and under-filtered.

Since you're hoping to upgrade soon, why don't you consider getting as much livestock out of the tank as possible (including the fish!) then slowly get together your new stuff. Try to do as much reading as you can, not only here but also on reefcentral, some of the online mags, and especially a few books. Ron Shimek wrote a great, simple, short book called "The coral reef aquarium" that's perfect for presenting the basics.

When you do upgrade, you'll be starting with a well planned tank that can really support the type of livestock you're interested in. A good tank size to consider that's a nice upgrade from a 29 is the 40 breeder; it doesn't take up much more room in the house, will not cost alot, and is very easy to light.

[jessinator752]

so do i need another filter for this tank? i was thinking of turning my 55 gal into another saltwater tank and moving my livestock from this tank to that one, then turning my 29 to brackish for the 3 puffers in my 55 gal. everywhere i read online says that the green spotted puffers do fine in a 29 gal, so i thought that would be a solution. if i find that my puffers don't do well in the smaller tank i'll just trade them in. i really like everything i have in my saltwater tank so if this tank is to small then i need to upgrade to keep everything i have happy. now i just need to read up and know what equipment i need for it.

i've been reading some on a refugium. is this something that i really need? when i bought my 29 gal the guy said it was just a fancy thing that most saltwater hobbiest use, and that it's not needed. i learn better by having someone explain things to me. i can read things and just not understand them until someone says this is what this means. that's why i normally leave all this to my husband.

[Texreefer]

i don't know where you live but you are welcome to come by and tak a look at my setup and ask all the questions you want.. sometimes its better to see alll this stuff working in person to understand,,, and i won't be trying to sell you anything

[jessinator752]

pm sent

[matt]

so do i need another filter for this tank? ..... now i just need to read up and know what equipment i need for it.....i've been reading some on a refugium. is this something that i really need?...... that's why i normally leave all this to my husband.

It's not so much "another filter" it's "better filtration." This can be achieved through a protein skimmer (a good one, not the Lee's, sorry) more live rock, better flow through the tank, a refugium, a good sand bed, etc...your best bet to understand this to read and check out some successful systems. The refugium is a nice thing to have; it allows you to grow macro algae which can absorb some pollutants from the water, and it provides a habitat, free of predators, for very small invertebrates which can populate your tank, help to process waste, and provide food for your corals and small fish.

As long as you can afford to upgrade, I think you'll be happier with a bigger tank that's well designed from the start. You can choose the right lighting, the right way to provide water movement (VERY important for corals) and the right skimmer. Then, when all that's ready to go, you can start adding live sand and live rock, let it mature, and slowly add livestock. Building a new eco-system slowly is one of the most fun aspects of this hobby IMO.

OTOH, leaving all this to your husband is probably a mistake!

[jessinator752]

why is it a mistake to leave it to my husband to do all the technical stuff if i don't understand it? if he can learn more and understands it better then why shouldn't he be the one to piece things together? now that i am the one having to do it, i'm learning the best i can, and asking questions when i don't understand something. my husband explained things to me as he did them, but i just don't learn very fast when i have to read about it. before i bought the skimmer that i did, i asked the gal at the pet store what the difference is, and which is the better brand to go with. she told me that they have been running the lee brand in their tanks for 10+ years and never had a problem with them. she said in her opinion that was the best one to go with, which is why she carried that brand in stock. of course i'm learning now that she says just about anything to make a sale, but i had asked and thought she was telling me the truth.

[matt]

I was just joking about leaving it all to your husband. But, I would say that the more you can understand about the technical end of reefkeeping, the better off you'll be. The biggest problems in learning usually are finding a good, informed, unbiased source of information, and translating that information into actual experience.

Although there are exceptions, typically pet store employees are not the best source of marine aquarium knowledge. In San Antonio we're lucky to have a few really good stores with knowledgable employees, but that's not often the case. It's best to do the reading, hang out on the forums, and don't be shy about asking advice. MAAST is a very friendly forum; you can get some good help here. In the end, though, you'll only have long term success keeping reef aquariums if you have a good basic understanding of the water chemistry and other environmental needs of the animals you're keeping. Try not to be intimidated by this, although it can be a little daunting at first. Everyone iin this hobby is constantly learning, and consequently we're all in the same boat.

[jessinator752]

i'm sorry, i didn't mean to jump on you. i guess i just don't know who's joking and who's not because i'm still new to the group. i'm a bit emotional and i take things seriously when i shouldn't. i guess the way i learn tends to make me frusterated because i feel stupid sometimes. i know asking questions is all part of learning and if i don't ask i'll never know, but i just feel like i should be able to pick up more info when i read as much as i do online.

[matt]

I would really recommend that Ron Shimek book; if you're in San Antonio you can borrow my copy, although it's a great one to own. It's short and to the point, answering all the basic questions about reefkeeping without alot of unnecessary detail or opinions. Reading online tends to be somewhat chaotic; everyone's got an opinion and the end result of a thread is all those opinions rather than one expert's carefully written description. Here's a link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Coral-Reef-Aquarium-Owners-Healthy/dp/1582451176/sr=8-1/qid=1161208014/ref=sr_1_1/104-3749159-4251956?ie=UTF8&s=books

[jessinator752]

thank you for the offer, but i'm in killeen so i'll probably just buy the book. thank you for the suggestion.

[txyaloo]

jessinator, which pet store in Killeen are you going to? When I was still in that area, Aqua Pets & Birds off Hallmark was the only one that had saltwater - this was several years back. If that's where you're going, be wary of any saltwater advice you might get. They know a lot about freshwater, but the saltwater knowledge is limited and always has been. They aren't really up to date on the latest practices and much of their knowledge is stuck in the 70's or 80's. If you have a chance, take a trip to Austin or San Antonio to see some of the better pet stores. They have some great folks that work in them.

[caferacermike]

I was working at the Hood for about the last 6 months of last year. I kept asking the guys that lived up there to take me to the shops at luunch or give me directions to them for after work. They all otld me the same thing, there are no fish stores in Killeen. They told me there was 2 shops but that they were not worth going to, that it was just better to not think that Killeen had any shops. I would HIGHLY recommend a planned trip to Austin. It's about 1 hour 15 minutes away. That's really not that far for great advice. When here plan on visiting Aquatech and Kingfish aqauriums for some of the most knowledgeable abd serious shops around. River City would also be on my list for resources and great coral prices. The Aquadome is really turning around and making a comeback as well. I'd say stay away from Austin Aquariums because they to will say whatever it takes to make a sale. I'm sure you could find numerous folks in ATX willing to show you around, including myself, if you want to plan something.

[jessinator752]

yes, aqua pets and birds is the shop i've been going to. there is also fins and flowers in cove, but they don't have much there either. i would love to be able to make a trip to austin, maybe one day in the near future i will have that opportunity. i will definatly try to set something up if i'm able to make that trip. i went to aqua pets and birds yesterday and i was noticing that some of the corals that were green and blue last week are now white and dead looking. it's very sad. i can see that they just put all their stuff in the bright light and say it's good. and when i was asking why mine disintegrated she said it just happens sometimes. they lost two of theirs that same way during the week. i guess i just never paid much attention to their stock till just recently.

[BIGBIRD123]

I live in Lampasas and you are welcomne to come look at my set-up.

Steve

[jessinator752]

thanks for the invite bigbird, i might take you up on that.

i've been discussing it with my husband and we decided to upgrade to a 135 right away. :) i'm excited. i'm hoping by the end of jan to have my new tank at my house and set up. i'm buying it from a fellow member so when i go to pick it up she is going to explain all these different things to me. it's a complete set up with refugium, so it will be a lot better than what i currently have. it also has the higher quality lights, so i know my corals will be set up and happy. now i'm just going to need some extra live rock.

[matt]

A new tank is always really exciting. I would suggest that you try to plan the following things really carefully:

1. Lighting; you'll have to decide about metal halide vs other types of lighting, and hopefully, if you're going to keep photosynthetic animals like corals, you'll get some sort of metal halide lighting. There are MANY options, and you'll want to learn about these as much as you can. Along with the quality of light, you can decide if you want the top of the tank open or covered with a canopy, and this decision will affect what kind of lights you get. In a really warm climate like TX, consider going wth an open top tank and hanging light pendents over the tank. If you use a closed canopy, you'll definitely need fans to control heat.

2. Water flow; this is practically as important as lighting is to the health of your animals. A typical issue with water flow is heat in the tank. Using a good quality external pump, like Pan world or iwaki, for your return pump, and using the Tunze "streams" for extra flow in the tank instead of several large submersible pumps can really cut down on the heat in your tank. Unfortunately, the tunze streams are expensive, and rarely available used. But, the non-programmable ones are perfectly fine and are much less expensive than the ones designed to be run on a programmable controller.

3. Calcium and alkalinity suplementation; on a tank as large as a 135, you'll need some sort of constant supplementation as your corals grow. Using limewater (kalkwasser) to replace your evaporated water is a very good idea. In the beginning, this may be enough to meet your calcium and alkalinity demand. But, as your corals grow, they will consume more, and usually you'll need to add more calcium and carbonate than KW alone will provide. There are 2 part supplements, like B-ionic, that work well and even can be made out of calcium chloride and baking soda. If you can find a bag of "dowflake" at home depot, and get a large box of baking soda, you can make the 2 part supplement for pennies instead of spending dollars on the B-ionic. Limewater can be easily made cheaply using pickling lime, which is less than 1/5 the cost of aquarium kalkwasser powder.

If you go to reefcentral and go to the reef chemistry forum, you'll find a link to many articles by Randy Holmes-Farley. In those he explains about calcium and alkalinity supplements in great detail.

It's really best to have those 3 systems worked out before you put any water in the tank, as they can have a huge impact on the equipment you buy and the way you set up your tank. One other major decision is about a protein skimmer; you can get a good one that sits in your sump, or one that's external to the sump and is plumbed in. In terms of simplicity, an in-sump needlewheel skimmer like a euro-reef will work well. They're not cheap but the price has recently come down on some models. Like lights, there are many options with protein skimmers, and everyone's got an opinion. After building and using many high performance skimmers, I feel that well designed beckett skimmers offer the best performance for the money, but they do require a good pressure rated pump to work their best, and they need to be adjusted well. For those reasons, the needlewheel skimmers are very popular, but you do pay a little more for equal performance IMO.

Have fun designing your new tank, and when the credit card bill arrives, smile and say "oh well! At least I don't live in LA"

[jessinator752]

well, the tank i'm getting has a canopy on it. it is coming with 250 metal halides that are 10k. she suggested that i upgrade the bulbs to 14k to give my livestock better coloring. right now there are not fans installed, so i was told it would be a good idea to do so. since i don't do things like that, it will have to wait till my husband can do it. i can't remember off hand what was all included, and i can't seem to find the email, but i know she told me it's a complete set up. well, everything but the skimmer. she's using that one in her new tank. her suggestions for calcium suppliments were purple up, and Reef Success Calcium +3. she said she's been using those and they seem to work well. right now i have everything separate and have to measure out each when i put them in my 29 gal. i'm using the kent marine iodine, coral-vite, zooplex, phytoplex, and essential elements. i put 5ml each on wed and sat. then on sat i also add 5ml tech-m. i also have some powder stuff that i don't use, so if anyone could use it let me know. it's: phosphate sponge, and turbo-calcium. i'm not sure what the phoshate sponge is, and on the container it says not to use the turbo-calcium unless you're an expiernced reefer, which i'm not and don't want to pretend to be. now, about that credit card bill, it's already maxed so i do that already when i get the bill :)

[jessinator752]

i was just rereading what i wrote, and the essential elements i put in when i do my water changes, not twice a week.

[matt]

Sounds good, but please do yourself a favor and learn about Calcium and alkalinity supplements. Don't use the purple up or any other "all-in-one" supplement; mostly those are ground up calcium carbonate. So what you're adding is just finely ground sand, and it's of no value to corals. Forget about adding iodine; or any other trace elements. Your salt will have plenty. What you need to add is a source of Calcium and a separate source of carbonate. Occasionally you will also need to add magnesium, but that's down the road aways. If you can get some uderstanding of how kalkwasser works, and set up a way to dose that, you'll be doing more good for your tank than any expensive additive could possible do.

Despite all the "miracle products" there are for aquarium supplements, the ones you really need are pretty simple, and available as household products much cheaper. They are:

Calcium Hydroxide (available as pickling lime)
Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda)
Calcium Chloride (available as "dowflake" or "prestone driveway heat")
Magnesium Sulfate (epsom salts) or magnesium chloride ("mag flakes")

Check out the articles I mentioned by Randy Holmes-Farley. Here are two that would be good to start with:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

and here's the index of all his articles.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=ea1eec983476d8df5897221054bb90bc& threadid=102605

[jessinator752]

thank you very much for the advice. i will defintaly bookmark those sites and read them throughly tomorrow when i'll be able to absorb more of the info. i want to learn as much as i can, so any suggestions given i'm taking to heart and trying to do. i'm asking questions when i don't understand things, and now that i know i can ask here and get true answers i am definatly going to seek advice on here. you all are making me feel so welcome, and even if i think it's a dumb question or if i feel stupid for not understanding you all make me feel good about asking. i do thank you all for that. i hope everyone has a merry christmas!

[caferacermike]

What Matt just said is, B Ionic equals coral crack....... Very easy to use and great results. Purple up is garbage. It claims to be both calcium and carbonate in one bottle. When you buy B Ionic do yourself a quick favor. Take a bit of both and pour them in a shot glass together. You'll see very quickly why you can't make an "All In One" product. The 2 compounds make aragonite sand as he said, Purple Up is only ground sand.

If you need additional cooling fans and your husband is not available to help, you can just get some $5 clip ons from Wallymart and point them over the water or at the fixture. Then you can get crafty with CPU fans, transformers and photo eyes to make them work with your lighting.

Don't chuck the phos sponge. Trust me I'd like it myself. It is a great product to have around. So simple to use. If your tank is ever becoming grungy you can slip it in an old nylon and drop it into the sump. It will draw excess phosphates (nutrients) from the water. Algae thrives on phosphates.

[jessinator752]

ok, i will stick to my separate bottles and keep measuring everything.

hum... i didn't realize that phos sponge was so nice to have. i was reading the container and it was talking about getting hot, and the way it sounded i was a little nervous to use it. but i guess i'll just keep it then and give it a try once i get my big tank set up. my 29 doesn't have a sump, so there wasn't much need for it. or so i thought.

thanks again everyone, and merry christmas!