AEFW

[hobogato]

if you have bought frags from me in the last few months, i am sorry to inform all, i have just discovered acro eating flatworms in my tank. i have a couple of fish that eat flatworms, and have been dipping since clint's issues, but probably picked them up before that. i only notice them on the inside of the dense colonies where the fish cant get to them to eat them. all frags that i have cut have been from the outside of the colonies, so there is a good chance that i have not passed them on to others. however, there is also a good chance that i have. i certainly would not have knowingly done this. i am planning to treat my entire tank - there is no way i can take all of my 160 or so acro's out and quaranteen them. this is what to look for. small circular bite marks on the underside and inside of acro colonies.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/AEFW.jpg

i will post updates as i get them.

[cpreefguy]

bummer, good luck with treatment

[caferacermike]

Dang.

Your pic is not very clear on my screen. Would you say that losing the flesh from a 1" patch in a few hours be the result of such critters? I've been losing a branch here and there but it quickly grows back. I noticed on my glass about 4 nights back some little purple specks. Are those the AEFW???

[hobogato]

that is not the damage i am noticing. i dont think the things on your glass are them either, they are the color of the coral they are eating, and they stay on it to try to camouflage.

i guess a good discription of the pic it it looks like little circles about 1/16" diameter that are missing color.

[NaCl_H2O]

Ace, sorry to hear it - I hope you can maintain your beautiful tank!

After fighting redbugs last year and 6+ months of neglect this year, I am mostly a FOWLR with a few softies and LPS "Reefer"

My new reefer moto is - If God wanted us to keep Acros, he would make us independently wealthy with endless patience and no need for sleep!

Good luck!

[Bill S]

Wow, Ace. Sorry to hear about that. Let me know if I can do anything to help. BTW, what fish DO eat them?

[erick]

Ace, man...sooo sorry to hear of your dillema :( Do you think either of the 2 small acro frags I got from you last week might have the worms on them also (birdsnest and mystery coral)? The frags were VERY small, about 1/2-1" each..... Also, could those worms be on the zoo frags I got from you at the same time? The Montis? I know you have enough to worry about with the new little one (BTW CONGRATS!!!), the wife, kid and now this, so dont worry about me if I got em, oh well.... Just something else to fool with :wacko good luck....Erick....

[hobogato]

i have a sixline wrasse and a yellow coris that seem to enjoy flatworms bill.

erick - i guess, i cant really give you an answer, just keep your eyes out for them. if you could set up a quaranteen tank for your acros, you can treat them with fluke tabs outside of your display since you dont have very many. the should not be on anything but acros from what i have read on RC.

brian - it was that thread that prompted me to go look closely again. i have seen the bitemarks on at least three colonies, but there are so many in there, i am sure they are pretty widespread.

[Ram_Puppy]

ace, hoe you conquer this problem quickly and w/ little damage to your stock man!

[Texreefer]

Bummer Ace,, i will check mine over but i don't think i'm infected.. i'm sure you will keep us updated on how it goes in case i need to treat at a later date.. If you need anything let me know.. We can turn my 40 gal fuge into a holding tank if you need to start removing anything

[apedroza]

hey Ace what is the best way to treat the frags. I want to be extra cautious with these frags. I dipped i Iodine for 10 minutes and didn't notice anything, but I just want to be sure. I don't have a lot of space for a QT tank, but I have a small 10gal I want to set up under my stand. can you explain how you will be treating?

[hobogato]

i still dont know for sure. i will either be using fluke tabs or prazyquantel. i am testing overnight with prazyquantel to see if it kills them all without killing the coral - more details to follow. if i were you, i would get some fluke tabs and dip them and leave them in quaranteen for a while, and then dip them again before you put them in your tank.

Here is what i am testing right now:

i mixed 1 gallon of prazyquantel/tank water to the directed dilution. i took a small valida colony with bite marks. i also broke off two frags from another colony with bite marks. i put the small colony and one of the frags into the prazyquantel, and i ran tap water on the other frag to make sure there were flatworms. there were some. tomorrow morning, i will see if the two corals in the prazyquantel are still alive, and then kill them with tap water to see if there were any flatworms left on them.

the prazyquantel would be easier to use and require less substantial water changes, so if it works, that is what i will use on the tank. if not, i will isolate the display from my sump/fuge and clam tank for 5 days, so all of the flatworms in the sump/fuge and clam tank will die. i will then treat the display tank with fluke tabs for twenty minutes, do a 50% water change and reconnect the tank to the sump/fuge and clam tank so i can run carbon and skim very wet for a few days. which ever treatment i do, i will have to repeat it in 7 days and again in 14.

[apedroza]

Ok I will use the 10gal as my qt tank (not sure how I will light it) I will get some fluke tabs and mix a bit in a bucket then dip. I will then return the frags to the qt tank. Does this sound OK to you? Man these things are scary, I hope the treatment works for you. Make sure to post details and progress if you have time. (I know you got other things to occupy your time now :D ) Good Luck!!!

[erick]

My qt doesnt have hardly any lighting, its a normal 20g with a 20w n/o flourescent. How long can my frags survive that? If at all? Or should I just chuck em and move on?

[LoneStar]

Wow what awkward timing. New baby and then a tank to medicate. Well at least you got the time off from school to take care of them both!

[Mr_Cool]

Sorry to hear this , Ace. Congrates on the new little one. Don't mean to make light of the situation, (if you don't, this kind of stuff can GET to you), but I bet you check your tank every time the bably gets up at night?!? I know I would.

[hobogato]

if you use fluke tabs or TMPCC dip, you may be able to get by without the quaranteen. you should do a 6.5 hour quaranteen with interceptor anyway.

[Richard]

My qt doesnt have hardly any lighting, its a normal 20g with a 20w n/o flourescent. How long can my frags survive that? If at all? Or should I just chuck em and move on?


24-48 hours shouldn't be a problem, they live that long in shipping bags.

Personally if it's only some frags I would just dip them in a strong Lugol's solution (5ml per liter) for about one minute. That's what I've been doing for new sps. The acros slime like crazy afterwards but no losses at all so far. Should knock off any flatworms (red bugs too). I don't know if it would help at all for flatworms eggs but you shouldn't have any on the frags.

[BIGBIRD123]

Ace and I are avid traders with each other, so if he has them, then more than likely I do too. If you have gotten frags from me in the last couple of months, then pay close attention to your acros. As Ace stated, I would never have knowingly released frags having known this. We took great measures to dip our corals after Clints disclosure but with this happening to Ace's tank, seems noone is imune. I think with the outreak of these little Ba$$tards, everyone should use extreme caution where they get frags from. I in No Way hold Ace responsible for this and lay blame on myself. We all knew these things were out there. I just wished I'd paid more attention. I fully apologize to anyone that gets these from anything they received from me.

Steve

[thedude]

Ace,

One thing to remember on the praziquantel is that it takes quite a dose to kill flatworms. I know of a wholesaler in LA that flushes its entire coral holding system with Prazi every three months. It is VERY expensive in that massive of a quantity but they feel it's worth the money.

John

[mojo]

I have a hungry sixline wrasse that completely eliminated the "regular" flatworms from my tank, but my acros were ravaged by AEFW and the sixline didn't touch them. I know that n=1 is not enough to reach statistical significance, but I don't think your sixline is going to bail you out of this, Ace. Nobody else on RC with sixlines and AEFW have reported any success either. Regarding Praziquantel (I assume you're using Prazi-Pro) I doubt this will be all that helpful, either. Your best bet with respect to the highest AEFW mortality and the highest acro survival is going to be the Fluke-Tabs. Be sure to dissolve the tabs well and introduce the solution to a very high-flow region in your tank. Clint and my troubles started when an acro colony developed RTN due to a large clump of Fluke-Tab that landed on it, and as you know, the rest is history. Best of luck to you! The guy on ReefCentral who is doing the in-tank treatment is apparantly having some success thus far. His shrimp are dying and his zoas are ticked off, but the fish and clams are apparantly unaffected and the corals aren't dying, although he has only treated once so far.

Our Fluke-Tabs are your Fluke-Tabs.

[fishypets]

Good luck Ace. A few of us Austin guys are pulling for you man.

[Richard]

This doesn't help but is worth reading IMO...

http://www.qualitymarineusa.com/article.asp?page=feature&id=ECB7612D-64C1-4910-BDA5-439C987A7084

[Bill S]

Ace, I'm not sure they would help after treatment, but I've got a couple of carbon torpedoes sitting around... Might also look at dumping out the carbon and filling with traditional carbon. Sure would treat it FAST.

[apedroza]

So I want to treat in a 10gal tank with fluke tabs. How much should I add to 10gal of water? I dipped the frags in strong lugols dip and so no FWs, but I want to be cautious. If I treat in the 10gal I willreturn the frags back into the main tank.

[Jeff]

first of all, props to ace and big bird for coming out and saying something, i greatly appreciate it. second is i have an empty 100gl tank if you need it ace, maybe you can frag a lot of your corals, dip them and hold them in another tank while doing a whole tank treatment. this way if something goes wrong you will have a lot of frags still availible for restocking.
if you need any help, just call or pm and i'll be right over.

[Jeff]

from isis at marsh FYI... Eric B is looking for some AEFW, so please PM on the MARSH site if you have them.

[hobogato]

ok. ill try to respond to everyone as well as possible.

john and mojo - i tested two acros last night with aquascience prazyquantel, first at suggested dose for a few hours, and then at 4X that for the rest of the night. some flatworms came off of the corals and are crawling around but dont seem to be bothered by it. fluke tabs it is.

mojo - i have had the sixline and yellow coris for a long time, and i think they (until now) have been keeping the flatworms in check without eliminating them completely, but my corals have grown enough to have lots of places the fish cant get to, and that is where i am seing the damage.

mojo and clint - thanks for the fluke tabs.

bill - i am planning on treating the first time as soon as possible, hopefully within the next week, i could use those torpedos as set up to help maintain conditions in the display while it is disconnected from the sump. ill get with you later today or tomorrow.

jeff - thanks for the offers, i am not sure what i am going to do about that yet. i am going to try to get into contact with eric and isis today.

mike - thanks for the sentiments. not surprisingly, i dont think about the tank much when enjoying time with the baby - no matter what time of day.

michael - you are right, the timing isnt bad :)

steve - sorry brother.

[brewercm]

I'm pretty close to the same feelings as SteveR has on this subject. It just seems to appear that there are so many things that just want to munch on the acros and other SPS for some reason. I don't feel that anybody is responsible for this, it's part of the hobby unfortunately and just part of nature. Everybody at one point got them from either some LFS or as far as that goes from some major distributor since I don't think anybody has gone out diving and set your tank up from collecting. This happened before with the redbug outbreak, and everyone was ready to hang a local LFS for giving them redbugs, I don't think anybody does this on purpose. I know I had a large outbreak of the red flatworms at one point and had no idea I even had them at the time. I know that I gave them to at least one person back then and hopefully nbo one else. It's not like we go out and buy these bugs and introduce them to our tanks, it just happens.

I haven't had a chance to take a look at any of the frags that I've gotten from either Ace or Steve(Bigbird). I do know that I've lost a few of my frags and older colonies of different things lately but those have all RTNd and I wasn't able to save them. Hopefully both of you can get rid of them and save what you do have.

Good luck to everyone that eventually has to deal with these things.

[TexasTodd]

Man, what a bummer Ace.

I hope it works out somehow.

Todd

[hobogato]

well, following along with the guy on reef central that is doing an in tank treatment and it doesnt look good at all :( may try a change of plans - lots of thinking to do.

[TexasTodd]

Just my opinion, but if I got them, I'd try to beat them by getting more flat worm eaters and basting.

Most people who try to treat loose all their corals anyway....I'd let them try to fight it out and see what makes it.

Todd

[mojo]

You just beat me to the punch, Ace, I was going to send you an alert. It looks like he is experienceing the same progression that Clint and I saw. A "change of plans" is going to involve A TON of work, but that may just be what is necessary to preserve your corals. If I lived closer I'd offer to help (sorry, bro). I'm sure your history of good will toward others will provide you with a lot of volunteers. Good luck! Regarding your "lots of thinking," if I were you, I would do exactly as Clint did before the in-tank treatment. Things were going along quite well up to that point.

[hobogato]

still thinking about this, but have two main options.

1. progress as planned - my plan involves preserving much of my biological filtration from exposure to the fluke tabs and getting rid of the meds from the tank very fast using a carbon torpedo from richard and almost doubling total water volume after a 50% water change. so, if i add 130 tabs, after the water change and reconnect of my sump/fuge and clam tank, the amount left in the system will be the equivalent of about 40 tabs for for 300+ gallons. then, heavy skimming and the carbon should take the rest out very fast. i would have to repeat the entire process in 14 days to get any that hatch out after the first treatment.

2. move all acros to the clam tank and move all clam tank inhbitants to the main tank. isolate the clam tank from the main system and do dips like clint did to get rid of them. the main work here would be moving everything and making sure i got every tiny piece out of the display so any left behind woud die off. this would be a 5 week process from when i moved things and start dipping. at least with this approach, if there is a crash, i would not lose any of my fish or other non sps corals in the display.

[hobogato]

in option 1, i am also discussing with someone of RC who has past experience and testing a lower dose for 45 minutes. this would make removal even faster and easier.

todd - for some of my colonies (like the bottlebrush in my avitar) there is no way a flatworm eating fish can get into the middle of the colony, and those little bugars hold on tight - i doubt i would be able to blast them all out. believe me, if i thought there was a remote possibility that it would work, i would try it before dumping in chemicals.

[apedroza]

So where can I get fluke tabs from? How many should I use in a 10gal tank, and how long should dip the corals? Also I haven't seen any FW from the frags I got from Ace, should I dip now as a prevention or should I wait until I see any symptoms?

[Texreefer]

Ace Im off for the next couple of days,, just say the word if you need any help with anything

[hobogato]

anthony, call around to some local pet stores. i looked on petsmart.com, but they were not listed. i am getting some soon, but that doesnt help you now huh? i will let you know when i get mine, and you can have some of them if you still havent found any.

[thedude]

Ace,

If I had to suggest a plan of action I'd suggest this:

Frag ever acro you want to keep 3 times. Only frag the tip and inspect them very carefully for any eggs. Dip those frags in TMPCC (a GENEROUS DOSE) with a powerhead and turkey baster then transfer all those frags to holding tank. If I had to do redo what Clint did, I would have turned the QT you made him into an active biological filter by adding sand and rock and letting it sit for a month.

With this method even if you experience 100% losses (and I pray to the acro gods you don't) you still have all your corals mini-sized. I think Clint's QT process ends fairly soon and I have a tank that I can keep his survivors in. Maybe you could repossess the tank and use it for the frags?

John

[thedude]

Anthony PM Mojo. He knows where to get them and I'm fairly positive he still has quite a few.

[hobogato]

yeah, i was planning on fragging the things i definitly didnt want to lose. i will set something up soon for that.

i just came home and looked at my tank again - i dont think there is any way i can get all of those sps in that 50 gallon clam tank, so it looks like option #1, with a lower dose 2X instead of 4X which takes longer to work (45 minutes), but will be easier to eliminate from the tank.

[Bill S]

Ace, in case things go rapidly to heck, I've got a couple of torpedoes standing by... Anything I have, you want/need, just let me know. I SHOULD be available late this week and this weekend, if you need/want any help.

[TexasTodd]

1. GreenMako can post a link to Dr.s' F&S for Fluke Tabs.

2. Ace, ask GreenMako about a thread he saw where a guy did use FW eaters etc, and hasn't lost his corals. I have no idea the types of sps the guy had, or, where the thread is.

Todd

[Jeff]

i have my empty 100 gl in the backyard if you need it.

[dark8nge1]

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4760&Ntt=fluke%20tabs&Ntk= All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

are these the right fluke tabs?

[TexasTodd]

Now, those DON'T kill the eggs, right?

So, even if you treat frags, you could still get these little b@stards if there were eggs on the frag?

Todd

[thedude]

Todd,

You're correct in that if eggs were on the frags they would survive but the point of taking a small tip of the coral, is so you can visually inspect for the eggs. They're hard to see with the naked eye but definitely visible.

John

[matt]

Sounds like a real bummer, Ace. I sure hope I don't have any of those from the frags I got from you. It's been a few months, so I'm hopeful. I have a huge carbon canister if you want to borrow it.

I kind of like option 2 of the ones you posted previously. You have ALOT of beautiful non-sps stuff in your main tank and it would be a disaster to lose all of that. Sorry about the extra work involved.

[apedroza]

hey I got a bottle of Prazipro that I won at the last meeting. It says it treats flatworms. Has anybody used this to treat corals?

[Richard]

That is what Ace was trying last night (praziquantel). It just irritated them and made them crawl around but didn't kill them.

[BIGBIRD123]

Would a phosban reactor with carbon work for chem removal? I'm at wits end right now because I work out of town all week. I don't have a clue as to what I will see when I get home. Being diabetic, i have so much trouble with my vision, I don't know how i will see these buggers. Mike, you got any of those "voodoo glasses" left for "old" people? I don't even have a skimmer anymore! Crap!

Again, Guys, I apologize if you have these from anything you got from me. As I lower my head, I'm Sorry.

Steve

[watson0720]

hey steve your just in luck i have the perfect skimmer for u

[BIGBIRD123]

Right now, all I could do is "Rent" it.

Steve

[watson0720]

i can't get anybody to buy this thing maybe it was a bad idea to buy it myself.

[mojo]

Mike, you got any of those "voodoo glasses" left for "old" people? I don't even have a skimmer anymore! Steve, you crack me up, I just saw this. You can borrow them any time!

So Ace, what's the latest? I heard something about the Fluke-Tabs not killing all of your flatworms? Can you expand on this?

Mike

[mojo]

Woops, never mind, just found the thread.