How can I INCREASE my Phosphates??

[Bill S]

OK, I know this sounds nuts. But, I'm jumping thru all of the Hiatt hoops right now. I'm told that my nitrates won't go down because the super-double-secret-probation bacteria need a 1-4 ratio of phosphate to nitrate for reduction to nitrogen gas. So, my nitrates are at 15, phosphates are zero. WITHOUT impacting NO4 (by introducting NH4, for instance with food that breaks down into ammonia), how can I increase the PO4?

Thanks,

[Ross]

start using tap water? but that will increase nitrates too...i think the freshwater guys who are into the plants does phosphate, maybe you could try one of those additives....

[Shark_Bait]

Wash your hands; then move stuff in the tank. Most soaps are packed with phosphates

[JeremyGlen]

Just make sure the soap doesn't have too much fragrence since it can kill everything.

[Richard]

Bill, I don't think you should experiment with soap or tap water or freshwater plant fertilizers (they all contain nitrogen also anways). The torpedos may still be "experimental" for us but I think you have too much in your tank to experiment with the experiment. Let's leave that to Mark ;) .

I'm pretty sure Snake would say just feed more but why don't you pm me your email address and I'll email him about your tank. I'll cc you on the email, that way he can just reply to both of us. Also send me a list of your livestock (not corals, just fish and any other big poopers) and how much of what you are feeding per day. Do you have a skimmer running? How much is it pulling out? Include anything else you think might be relevant and we'll see what he says.

Oh, what po4 test kit are you using?

[GaryP]

Bill,

Remember that your test kit is only detecting ortho phosphate. meta phosphates are going to be much more common in the water. So saying that your phosphates are zero is not accurate. How many times have you seen someone post that they are having a nuisance algae outbreak and their phosphates are zero? How does that happen? Meta phosphate.

Also, think about minimum detection limits. Does your kit really test down to 0 ppm? I doubt it. Something around 0.2 ppm is probably more likely. That also happens be close to the phosphate level for NSW.

If you are feeding your tank its virtually impossible to have 0 ppm phosphates. You are putting a significant amount in every day in the form of food. Think in terms of mass balance.

Now, if Snake is say that you need a 4:1 ratio of nitrate:ortho phosphate, I think we need to find a shrink! With that said, the only way to determine the true ratio is with a high dollar meta test kit. there are a couple around that I am sure you could probably borrow for this.

[GaryP]

To answer your original question. You can get sodium meta phosphate from the the hardware store. They use it to clean copper on air conditioning coils.

[Richard]

Now, if Snake is say that you need a 4:1 ratio of nitrate:ortho phosphate, I think we need to find a shrink!


LOL Gary, no that is not what he says. The 4:1 ratio refers to how it is reduced not how it is added. I seen this and similar ratios touted by others like zeovit, the vodka dosers, etc. in terms of how bacteria reduce these compounds so maybe there is some truth to it.

I've sent him an email so maybe we can get a better explanation from him. Last time I spoke with him he was saying that alot of times tanks are under fed for his system because people are sticking with how they normally run aquariums (i.e. don't feed too much). He pointed out that on the evironmental side of his business they are treating sewage water so there is never a shortage of phosphate, organics etc. My 92 gallon is badly over fed by my wife with some uneaten food usually built up in the tank when I go see it. So maybe that is it.

My concern about dosing just phosphate is that it won't work and just gives Bill a bunch of problems. Snake has told me that his system will not work at all on a sterile tank where just ammonia is dosed to it because just ammonia isn't enough for his bacteria to survive. So that's why I think we should wait for his advice, since he's the only one who would fully know how his system would/should work.

We know the system works great short term but the big question for us is long term results. Bill has the oldest full reef tank using this setup by a couple of months. My original tank to test this setup is just a holding tank for things on their way to the 92 gallon so it isn't stocked all of the time. It's working fine but isn't exactly the same as a normal tank.

I've done a bunch of searches on the various claims Snake has made to make sure that there was at least some reason to give his system a try. Alot of the things I've found that kind of correlate with what he says are too technical for me to fully digest but it seems to me that he is not just making up things that no one else is researching. Here is a link to an experiment on the Eastern Mediterranean becoming P limited during the winter and N reduction stopping because of it. At least that's what I think they are talking about :blink . Of course the N : P ratios they are giving for the ocean different than what Snake is talking about.
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:CXhmMJuIWaUJ:earth.leeds.ac.uk/cyclops/cyclops_powerpoint.ppt+nitrate+phosphate+ratio+bac teria&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7

It's the kind of thing that only Gary might find interesting LOL.

[GaryP]

I understand perfectly what he is saying. 1 part of phosphate is used for every 4 parts of nitrate. HOWEVER, in most natural systems phosphate is the "limiting nutrient." That means that phosphate exists at a level less then 4:1. If that is the case, the metabolism of nitrate is limited by the relatively low concentration of phosphate. This results in a climbing concentration of nitrates. Starting to sound familiar?

I suppose it is possible to set up a slow drip of phosphate to restore the imbalance... or just feed more. One problem with feeding more though. You are adding more phosphates, but also adding more nitrates. The imbalance is just extended.

[Richard]

To answer your original question. You can get sodium meta phosphate from the the hardware store. They use it to clean copper on air conditioning coils.


Are you talking about TSP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisodium_phosphate) that they have at HD for cleaning walls, degreasing, etc?

Maybe I will experiment on my little 29 gallon tank. Just some clean up crew in there now. What's a source of just nitrate?

[GaryP]

Yes, TSP is trisodium phosphate. Na3PO4, neutralized phosphoric acid.

Hmmmm.... Nitrate. Let me think of an over the counter product. That's a little tougher because things like Sodium Nitrate are oxidizers and a little dangerous for public use. 21-0-0 fertilizer is Ammonia Nitrate, but that is a little hard to get since a couple of guys made a little trip to the fed bldg. in OKC and I'm not sure you would want to add the ammonia. You could always do the old reefer trick and just pee in the tank. That's urea but gets processed into nitrate the same way as other organic nitrogen wastes such as proteins.

[Richard]

Ammonia Nitrate


I'm scared to even type that on the internet LOL.

[GaryP]

To late, some super computer at "No Such Agency" already has it.

[Richard]

I didn't type it. So when they raid my house I'll be saying "It was Gary! He did it!"

[GaryP]

I'm sure they already have a file on me. Something to do with a batch of plastic explosives I whipped up one 4th of July. I always was an over achiever. :)

[NaCl_H2O]

You could always do the old reefer trick and just pee in the tank.
:sick Make sure there is no stray voltage leak first :w00t

[Bill S]

Well, I think I have some TSP. How about Sodium Biphosphate? Only problem with it is that it will decrease my pH even further.

The problem with feeding is that it adds both sides...

[Bill S]

Hmm. If I look at this by WEIGHT - Gary help me out - there's about 55,000 tablespoons of water (a tbl is 1/2 oz in volume and weight) in a 215g tank. 20ppm is 1 in 50,000. So, that's about 1 tablespoon of pure nitrates in the tank. Snake says NaH2PO4 - sodium biphosphate - is too acetic to add. NaH2PO4, by atomic weight, is 25% phosphorus, and 75% phosphate. So, if we're talking about a couple or 4 of tablespoons... How much difference can THAT make to the pH?

[GaryP]

Gary help me out

OK, go to Wal-Mart and buy an electronic kitchen scale and forget about the volumetric measurements. If you'd like some medical syringes to do the dosing, let me know. I have plenty of spares.

[GaryP]

Its easy to get the phosphates salts confused. I think what you need is this:

Na2HPO4, the dibasic form.

It has a pH of around 9.0 (8.8-9.4) in solution. In either case you are going to be adding so little that its not going to have a signifcant change in pH. You can change the pH of monobasic by adding a little washing soda. Its basically going to create a buffer of mono, di, and tri basic species with a little carbonate left over.

[Richard]

If you end up needing to weigh a small amount you can bring it by the store. I have a little digital jewelers scale I use for weighing out small amounts of powder.

Oh the powder I am weighing is copper sulfate. What were you thinking LOL

[GaryP]

What was I thinking?

Small amounts = small addiction.