HELP SICK FISH

[~TG~]

Need some help here... my fish are sick and dying:

125g with sump/skimmer
1- minniatus grouper
1- blue/yellow grouper
1- yellow tang
1- powder blue tang (R.I.P)
1- Snowflake Eel
lots of Live rock and live sand

I feed Krill and brine and soak it in garlic, all were eating well. 2 wks ago I added the bio-spira pouch tested the water and all levels normal I added a blue/yellow grouper. Last wk noticed it stressing out cause the minniatus was fighting with it. The fighting had stopped by now but noticed the Blue/yellow grouper was missing little pieces of its tail/gill and the powder blue tang had a little bit of ich none of the others had anything. All eating like pigs.
Yesterday, 6pm the powder blue had more ich than normal so i added the meds "Focus" and "Metronidazole" to the food ~ fed the fish and they all ate. At about 10pm i fed a little more without the meds (i had increased the feedings cause of the ich) and just the blue tang ate... by 1130 the minniatus was stressing out and turning a pale pink/white color and looked sick. upclose it was covered in what looked like a film of something or like a BUNCH of tiny bits of ich but it swims so fast I cant tell. And the Powder blue tang now had these white vertical lines on its body. This morning found the tang dead all other 3 still alive, but stressing, I fed and none ate and i tested the water and this is what i found..

Ph - 8.6
Salinity - 1.026
Temp - 81.9
Nitrite - 0.1
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - ** I don’t understand how to read this card!! it has "high range" values on left and "Low Range" values on right...EITHER WAY it was RED at High Range 250 OR Low range 50....

SO I added the whole box of Furan-2 (treats 100gal) that’s all I had at the time) I turned off my skimmer came to work and started to pray :cry

What is going on?? Any Ideas Anyone? I have never lost any other fish in any of my other tanks only THIS ONE!! This is the 3rd time I lose fish in this tank.. Could it be the tank?
HHELP HELP HELP HELP HELP……

Thelma

[demodiki]

Wow, where to start...how old is this tank? How long have all the fish been in there? You say you added bio-spira two weeks ago...is this a new tank?

You should not put medications such as flagyl (antibiotic) in your tank. You should never treat the main tank if possible. Do you have a hospital tank? Does a friend have a hospital tank?

[Instar]

pH 8.6 -- what time of day was this reading? What are you adding to the water chemistry? What brand of salt mix???

Nitrate too high if that's real, pH is high but not deadly. Are you adding kalk? Sounds like a toxin or a bad pump. What kind of pumps are you running and where?

[~TG~]

demodiki~
tank is over a year old.. broke it down for a few days about 2 1/2 months ago then set it up again.. left it empty for about 2 weeks then added the first 2 fish.. then 1 a week later then the last about 2 weeks ago. I
tested water several times and the readings were always within normal limits. Nothing that jumped out..

Instar~
ok the ph was 8.6 and it was checked at noon today.
i am not adding nothing to the water
I use Oceanic Salt and have used that brand always
I dont add Kalk
Nitrates are what i dont understand i used the Kent testing kit and it was Red immediately which was the 250 on the high range and 50 on the low range...
The pumps are in the sump there are the one with the skimmer and i dont know the brand name of the skimmer I got it at Alamo about 8 months ago, not the ones that come in boxes they have these in their glass cases at the counter if anyone is familiar with it?? Euroreef? I can find out tomorrow.. and the return pump is a QuietOne 1000??3000? I'm not sure~ Rudy(oceancube) HELP?!? And i have a Tunze inside the tank
Thats all...... I added the furan-2 today at noon shut the skimmer off.
and tried to feed and none are eating the only fish that doesnt appear affected is the yellow tang... should i add the furan-2 again tomorrow??

tonight at about 10:30 the minniatus look very distressed so i did a 35 gallon water change :unsure not sure if that was the right thing to do ..

When you said Toxin i remembered something.... a few days ago i noticed something growing on one of the rocks and it is black not a mushroom or anything just looks weird not sure what it is?? i'll try to get a pic...

[Richard]

I don't mean this to be rude but you are doing things very, very wrong.

Nitrification cycle...
Ammonia->Nitrite->Nitrate

You have measurable nitrite and your nitrates are way up. This means you HAD an ammonia spike.

To make matters worse you've added Furan II. First off, nothing you describe sounds like a bacterial infection so Furan II wouldn't be indicated anyway. The vertical stripes on the PB are a normal coloration pattern of a really stressed PB. Secondly, the antibiotics may inhibit/reduce the nitrifying bacteria population which is the last thing you want to happen. Plus Furan II contains methylene blue which IS toxic to nitrifying bacteria.

The water change was the best thing you could do IMO and I would continue to do larger percentage water changes until your parameters are in check. Hopefully the remaining fish will recover.

Good Luck!

Edit - I would also turn the skimmer back on. It may foam like crazy for awhile because of the Furan II.

[~TG~]

No, not being rude at all Richard if i dont ask for help i will never learn and that is why i am always on here reading up and when i run into problems i ask immediately cause you all have helped be before so i welcome all comments and advice. Heck i'd be glad if someone came over to take a look and tell me what i am doing wrong!!

Now how or what may have caused the ammonia spike? overfeeding or feeding to much? they always say i feed alot, but i feed once a day and about 15 pieces of krill or more but thats cause the minniatus is the only one that eats them all and none of the other fish get any at all.
I added the furan 2 only cause i had used it before and it helped my lions recover when they got ich so when i saw the tang with the ich and the grouper with the fin/tail rotting i thought it would help but after a few hours i noticed that they were stressing out BIG TIME and thats what prompted me to do the water change... I'll do another big water change tomorrow now i have turned my skimmer on again but the furan made the water yellowish should i run carbon now or leave it as is and just change the water again?

Thanks

[Richard]

Yes run the carbon. It will remove the Furan II pretty quickly.

Basically your tank is only running for about 5 weeks. I think the 15 pieces of krill is probably the source of the ammonia spike. That's ALOT of krill. Unless he is really big he probably only needs that much per week or so. Even if he is eating all of it, whatever goes in comes out the other end and produces ammonia in your tank.

Typically it will take AT LEAST 8 weeks to get a really solid population of nitrifying bacteria that can handle that amount of feeding, even if you add Biospira or other bacterial boosters. Controlling nitrates with that much feeding will be very tough, but that's another topic.

[~TG~]

ok ill run the carbon tomorrow. as for the groupers they are large ones the minniatus is about 10 -11 inches or so and and the blue/yellow is about 8 but they do eat alot. If i even miss a day of feeding they splash the tank constantly and start picking on each other they are aggressive as it is..

Thanks

[demodiki]

Yikes, I would say that your tank is grossly overstocked. You might want to rethink your stocking plan.

[Instar]

8.6 is very high for pH without a large macro refugium. To obtain that by noon, is indicative of a water or salt make up mismatch. Using RO water for the mixing and top off water?

Sounds like a lot of fish weight for the age of the tank. Weight = bioload = ammonia and if you don't skim or filter it out first, it breaks down into the nitrates (short version here). Without a huge filtration system and refugium and large skimmer, a 125 will have to ramp up to all that fish load. On top of that, Oceanic salt is for coral systems with all kinds of other equipment running. Bad batches of that wipe out some tanks literally overnight. Fish only with live sand and live rock are better done with Instant Ocean salt mixed with RO/DI. (Tap water is dangerous too. There is no control over things that come unseen in that water.)

The fish are going to be aggressive in that size tank, there is not enough shoulder room for them at the size they are for them not to be fighting for territory. That is going to go on for a while. It may subside over time as they get conditioned to the tank, but, as they grow, it could also get worse. We're talking about a drop in the bucket with a 125 when compared to their real environment and those fish do get a fair bit bigger.

Those pumps should be ok, but not sure about the skimmer. Anyway it's in the sump, so not as likely to cause a problem with fish if they should leak and produce current in the water.

I'm back to pH. It's off and if your test kit is working correctly and that is accurate, that indicates a pretty fair sized water quality issue. I'd get a new bucket of Instant Ocean and work frequent partial water changes until it's back to pH of about 8.0 in the morning and you've done a complete water exchange at least a couple times over. Also, use the carbon. Make absolutely sure you get all the uneaten fish food out of there each time you try to feed and they don't eat. That bacteria culture is going to be knocked down for a while and maybe half dead because of the antibiotics. Run the skimmer and don't shut it off no matter what. Oxygen is going to be in high demand now for a while and more difficult for the fish to adsorb because of the pH. Running the skimmer will help with that demand. This assessment is really dependent on that pH of 8.6 at noon being correct. Can you get that checked by someone else who has a known good kit? Still, running the skimmer and carbon will apply.

[reefer_guy]

1st of all the powder blue is so prone to cryptocaryon that it ain't even funny. The powder blue is for experts only. Also you have too many fish in your tank (1 inch of fish per 5 gallon max and I stay at 10 gallon just to stay safe). Your tank has not been set up long enough to carry that size bioload. You are overfeeding and that is why your nitrates are so high. Any measurable nitrite or ammonia is not within normal range. Nitrite is a killer and when coupled with high nitrates is super deadly.

If you are not adding anything to your tank to raise your pH, alk, or calcium then you need to check you pH test kit. Also NEVER, NEVER, NEVER medicate your display tank. Especially with a bacteria killer such as furan. This is another reason why you fish are dieing. There is now no bacteria in the tank to break down the ammonia. Take your fish to a friends QT tank or set yourself up one. The only problem is that with the size of your groupers you will need another 125 to do this. You should treat ick (cryptocaryon) with hypo-salanity, not meds.

As for the salt, I don't necessarily agree that Oceanic is for coral systems. If a salt is good for corals then it is great for fish as well. But never the less, you need to start using RO/DI water and a quality salt. IO is okay and I will not go into a salt debate....I use a different brand and have very stable pH, calcium, and alk.

[GaryP]

I have doubts about the 8.6 pH as well Thelma. In a system like that I don't see how your pH could be that high without dripping something like Kalk. Borrow another test kit and re-test or take it to an LFS and have them test it. Something doesn't add up. I'd be willing to bet that your pH is closer to 7.6 then 8.6

[matt]

Ditto on the ph, unless there's something weird that happened when the meds were added to spike the ph, but I doubt that. Anyhow, I hope it's just a wrong test result because any ammonia at that ph is going to be extra toxic to the fish.

[GaryP]

One more thing. While nitrate is considered to be less toxic then ammonia and nitrite, when it gets to a certain level (lets say over 100 ppm) then you are in the realm of toxicity. It may not necessarily kill the fish, but it may stress it to the point that it becomes susspetible to other diseases such as Ich.

[~TG~]

ok im back here is the update:
the groupers died but the tang and eel are still in there
i have done a 35 gal waterchange thurs & sat
I bought a new bigger skimmer...
didnt siphon the bottom for food but will do that today.
took out the filterpad from the filter tray on the sump and i'm using "poly filters" they are supposed to wipe out the meds and all in the water and change colors and work like carbon but i havent noticed a change in the color of the pads so im getting some carbon today.

Gary trust me i retested the Ph three times cause i thought there was a mistake i even used another new Redsea test kit and the Ph was as PURPLE as Barney and i tested before any meds were added... I understand how the ammonia=nitrite-nitrate breakdown happens and i know this is what led to this demise ... :cry If i cant stablize this tank one last time thats it....im OUT for good... i cant take losing any more fish. My passion is the fish way more than the corals.. i have my 58g reef thats blooming right now for some unknown reason cause i do nothing to it just top off and THATS supposed to be harder to maintain BUT i cant keep my darn fish alive???... thats just crazy... :angry

Thelma :(