Uh oh tank paramamters swinging

[caferacermike]

My otherwise normally set paramaters have changed this week.

My normal values have been steady at

KH 10 DKH or 179ppm
CA was always to high to get a real reading, kit said 700ppm
Nitrates, 20
nitrites, 0
Ammonia, 0
phosphates, 0


It's been about a week and now I'm reading

KH 4 DKH or 72ppm
CA test changed at 600ppm
Nitrates 50
nitrites negligible under 10 but not 0
ammonia 0
phosphates 2.0 ppm

Things that have changed in the last couple of weeks.

Lighting went from 2x 150w 20K halides to 2x 250w 14K halides

Switched from Reef Complete and Reef Alk from Sea Chem to B-ionic for calcium and alk as was told it's coral crack. I'm wondering if I need to start monitoring and adjusting the levels myself instead of the directions.

Started feeding whole silversides to my now giant panther grouper

So what would cause my phosphates to rise so rapidly? Besides the change in food I haven't been leaving any extra as he eats from my hand.

I gave away about 20 lbs of live rock that was in my sump to another member. Could that be part of it? Maybe I need to wait for more bacteria to grow elswhere?

Any idea why my alk would drop out?

I haven't had any fish losses.

Everything in my tank looks wonderful. My SPS are the fullest they have ever been. My rics have grown huge. I'm attributing that to my new lights. I've begun to grow some algae in a tank that could never before grow algae but I was attributing that to the higher lighting.

So besides cutting back on feedings and doing a few water changes what else shgould I be looking for?

I have a big ol Euro reef skimmer running 24hours to help. No bio balls in wet dry, instead it's full of rock rubble. I use only RO/DI water from a trusted store.

[Richard]

So what would cause my phosphates to rise so rapidly?


Probably a giant panther grouper fat on silversides pooping.



Any idea why my alk would drop out?


Possibly a small precipitous event from driving your calcium so high. I would dose only the alk part of bionic or the reef alk to bring the alk back up and your ca should come down a bit more as alk goes up. Best to keep ca under 500 IMO.

[Bill S]

Hmm... I'd guess I would HAVE to agree with Richard. Dumping whole silversides into a system WILL dramatically alter your chemistry!

[BIGBIRD123]

I'll give you a $100 for the Efflo before you kill it...

Steve

[JeremyGlen]

:lol

[Texreefer]

your very happy SPS might also be starting to suck up some calcium and alk,,,hmmm i better hold a few for you ;)

[caferacermike]

Hmm... I'd guess I would HAVE to agree with Richard. Dumping whole silversides into a system WILL dramatically alter your chemistry!

I said I hand feed the thing. No extra silver sides floating around. But I am willing to believe the wastes from the fish are getting larger. It has grown an inch a month for the past 2 months.

BigBird who says I have a giant efflo? And why would I sell it if I had gotten one for less than I paid for it? And why are you insinuating I am going to kill it? That hurts my feelings as it has completely polypped out and begun to change from the brown it was while sitting in it's previous owners tank to a nice purple with white tips. Your statement, unless joking, implies that I have no idea what I am doing and that I am afraid to ask for help before things get very bad. Neither of which I feel would be true.

I will stop dosing the CA part of the B ionic until my alk is up and CA comes down a bit more.

[hobogato]

I'm wondering if I need to start monitoring and adjusting the levels myself instead of the directions.



yes - without a doubt dose to get the levels you need. the best way to do this is to monitor your calcium and alkalinity drop over a few days to see how much your tank is using. once you know that, you can dose accordingly.

what salt are you using? i had very high calcium and low alkalinity with oceanic salt. i switched to instant ocean, and had almost the same problem but vice-versa. i dosed B-ionic to make up for it, but now have calcium and kalk reactors running.

the algea growth is a dead giveaway for hight phosphates, so your tests just confirmed it. i think the best advice (from past experience - trial and coral deaths) is to get the large predator out of the tank where you are keeping sps. the efflo as well as other sps dont tolerate swings in parameters well, and when that fish releases waste in a particular area it will have a localized swing in ammonia and maybe nitrites. the corals may not show it right away, but you may start seeing "unexplanable" dieoff or bleaching - or worse RTN or STN.

all joking aside, you may want to evacuate any prized pieces to a trusted tank if you cant get those parameters in check immediately - they may look ok now, and die a month from now because of the damage that may be occuring now.

[BIGBIRD123]

Get over yourself. I think that Sean should be the one that feels insulted by you saying it was all browned out sitting in the previous owners' tank.

I read this...
You know I got a giant efflo of some sort earlier this week. About 7" acrossed. It was browned out when I got it so I'm unsure of what it is. Seems to be getting a purple hue and has white polyps only on the edge of the rim. The polyps in the center are still brown. It also polyps rfom all over the flesh, not just the obvious bumps that would be polyps.

...is how I know. With parameters like that, the Efflo is not the only thing that is going to be going south. If I was having that kind of trouble with the stability in my tank, I would not be buying a rare coral such as an Efflo until the tank was back in order for a few weeks, if not months. Do you actually know how rare it is to get an Efflo of that size and quality? If you feel insulted then, I'm sorry but I feel that you showed poor judgement in purchasing the Efflo with the tank like it is now. A Giant Panther Grouper is a "giant cr$p factor". That in itself is a NO-NO in a reef.

quote.."And why would I sell it if I had gotten one for less than I paid for it?" What is this supposed to mean?

My offer still stands, though...

Steve

[Bill S]

My comment on the silversides is this. Whatever goes in the tank, whether eaten or not, stays in the tank until it is removed. Your grouper is putting out about 98% of what goes in it's mouth, back into the tank.

[caferacermike]

Bill I understand you now. I understood what you wrote as saying that whole silversides rotting in the tank was a bad thing, as it would be.

Steve blow it out your ***.

First you snatched what I wrote from anothre forum addressed to Clint as he is king of efflos. If you re-read what I had wrote I was stating that I had a great piece of coral that was doing great in my tank. I was glad the color was coming back in less than a day. So thank you very much for repeating what I WROTE ON ANOTHER FORUM! Nothing about what I wrote was an attack on Sean. If you had been at Seans house while he explained about how a lot of his SPS had browned out because of the tank switch a week earlier you'd shove your comments where the metal halides don't shine. Also I wrote this after I left his house, on this here forum,
We came, we saw, we bought. Still some nice stuff left. Get to it before I go back. If I was *****ing would I have said that I really wanted to go back and buy more stuff? Would I have spent $400 at his house? Would I have also said how impressed I was at how well my new rics were doing? Where the hell do you think those rics came from?

You know what, you seemed like a reasonable guy before this. In fact I had wanted to request a time to come and see your tank. Obviously you'll never invite me to your home. Get over your jealousy. If you had wanted the efflo for your tank you should have driven your self to his hime at 11:00pm that very night as did I.

Better yet how bout this? To make ammends with you I now offer you this efflo which is doing wonderful in my tank for free. You want to come to my house bad mouth me here in my home you can have it for free.


MODS CLOSE AND DELETE THIS THREAD. I HAVE SOME GOOD ADVICE ABOUT HOW TO BRING MY PHOS DOWN AND ALK UP. I REALLY WOULD HATE TO CONTINUE ARGUING WITH SOMEONE WHO OFFERED NO HELP AT ALL BUT ONLY WISHED TO CAUSE ME IRE. I THOUGHT THAT TYPE OF FLAMING WAS AGAINST THE RULES HERE AT MAAST.

[cpreefguy]

Hey guys, I dont want to get in the middle of things, but no offense was taken by me. Sadly, almost all of my corals did lose their color in the move to San Marcos. I think this, like other situations, started by a misconstrued comment. Im sure no harm was intended by either party. After all, this is just a fish website ;)
Now, back to your regular programming... :)

[Euclid]

caferacermike, you really need to step down off your high horse.
i've been to this guys house and seen his tank personally... he says his efflo is doing great, but honestly that thing is more than half dead already. His whole tank is a joke. He's got absolutely no freakin' clue what he's doing, he even told me he was thinking about putting a blacktip in his reef tank. what a freakin' idiot. mods, go ahead and close this thread and maybe even ban this tool while you're at it.

[hobogato]

how sad.

[Texreefer]

this is neither needed nor wanted on this forum!

[GaryP]

The following is not directed at caferacermike, or any particular individual for that matter. Rather, it is offered as educational material concerning the several topics mentioned in this thread. Grab a sandwich, this may take a while.

First off, I don't see how 700 ppm calcium and 10dkh alkalinity is even possible unless you are dumping magnesium into the system by the bucketload. Since you aren't testing for magnesium, I doubt that is likely.

High calcium and high alkalinity are mutually exclusive. You can't have both at the same time, unless, as I said you have very high magnesium levels. I would suggest you borrow another test kit and re-test. Whenever both levels are high, the result is always precipitation of calcium carbonate because water can't support both concentrations. In extreme cases this results in a "blizzard" where large scale precipitation occurs. In lesser cases the precipitation is slower, but often concentrates insides pumps, resulting in them working less efficiently, or not at all. Magnesium acts as an inhibitor to precipitation by tying up some of the carbonate as a water soluble magnesium complex.

Second, most predators (eels, triggers, groupers, lionfish, etc) have fairly inefficient digestive systems. On top of that they eat more then similar sized herbivores and omnivores (tangs, angels, etc.) This usually results in tanks containing these guys to have high nutrient loads. That's why they are not normally recommended for reef tanks. All you have to do is look at the hoops that Donnie has jumped through over the years to maintain his nutrient levels in his aggressive reef to see what I am talking about. Donnie isn't even trying to keep SPS in his tank. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but you are going to accept the fact that you are going to need more then just regular tank maintenance and equipment (and the associated cost) to pull it off.

Third, low alkalinty or high phosphates can kill SPS. Tip down die off is usually indicative of low alkalinity. Base up die off is usually indicative of high phosphates. When you have both happening at the same time and I would suggest your address both ASAP. Raising the alkalinity is simple enough. The combination of both can have a synergistic effect that can quickly cause major damage to SPS. Several factors are probably going to be necessary to address such high phosphate levels such as aggressive skimming, a refugium, and carbon adsorbers (Phosban, Phosorb, etc). 2 ppm is a very high phosphate value. Also take into consideration that you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Most test kits only test for one form of phosphate (ortho). Meta phosphate is the more common form and is not tested for with a common phosphate kit. With levels that high, you are certainly going to be seeing a nuisance agae bloom in the near future, if you aren't already. High phosphates can also cause browning.

Fourth, any time you change the salt of supplements you are using in a tank, its a good idea to do a lot of testing until you get the required supplement dosing figured out again. As you mentioned, growth of corals can cause changes as well. The other factor to consider, especially considering the high calcium and alkalinity results, is whether the lower levels are simply the result of the new product precipitating calcium carbonate because of the way you are dosing one product vs. the other. These products are rarely 1:1 replacements for each other.

Hope that helps.

[Bill S]

Just to reinforce one thing Gary said - get a new test kit. I have 2 alk kits, one is SeaChem, the other Salifert. I contacted SeaChem about the reagents in their kit, and they sent me new ones AND acknowledged that they had a batch go out with bad kits. Some folks here remember me having a heck of a time getting my Alk up a few months ago - turns out it was fine...

[GaryP]

One more thing I forgot to mention. Coral growth is not the only thing that depletes alkalinity. Bacteria produce acids that deplete alkalinity as well. The more fish waste you have, the more food you have for the bacteria, the more acids they produce as their waste, the more depletion of the alkalinity.

Also studies have shown that if you have to choose between high alkalinity and high calcium, corals are much happier with high alkalinity. They will actually tolerate low calcium fairly well and still keep growing. On top of all that, besides being a source of material for calcification, alkalinity also regulates pH. Low alkalinity results in low pH. The natural trend for pH is downwards because of the bacterial acids I mentioned before, as well as CO2 (carbonic acid). Low alkalinity and pH also has a tendency to promote all kinds of nuisance algae problems as well. Low alkalinity on top of the high phosphates is another one of those negative synergistic combinations I mentioned earlier.

[alton]

Very well said Gary and I didn't even finish my burger, so it wasn't that long of a story and you have seen me eat.

[caferacermike]

Thank you Gary.

For the rest of you the corals are fine. Euclid is a friend of mine and was having a joke. My tank is nothing as he said it was.

[JimD]

Cut way back on feeding, push your skimmer wet, do frequent small water changes, prune your fuge if you have one, if not, get one. Whats happening is your adding more than whats being removed, thus the build up of nutrients. That fish can and will survive on much less food. Acros in general, Efflo or whatever dont do well in a nutrient rich environment, you should probably move it to a temporary location until you get your perams in better condition. Hey, just a little friendly advice learned from experience.

[GaryP]

For the rest of you the corals are fine.

With those kind of levels I wouldn't be surprised if you have problems with the corals and alage in the near future. Be ready for it when it happens. Most corals aren't going to like the nitrates that high either. I missed them on the first go around. Nitrites can be toxic as well, especially to things like snails. What is the first thing most people usually do when they have an algae bloom.

[BIGBIRD123]

What I said in the original post WAS a joke until you blew-up, then I ran with it. You need to pay attention to the rantings and ravings of most of us on here. There is an abundance of us on this forum that make comments like that to each other all the time and noone blows-up about it. Ask "Thong Boy".

All that I was saying was that it showed irresponsability by putting a RARE coral of that magnitude in a tank that was not stable and the problems that you were stating were not stable. I will even offer my tank to hold any coral that you feel is in jeopardy.

This was not meant to be a flaming and I apologize if you think that's what it was for. I believe in responsable reefing and the saving of our reefs. I just felt that you should have waited till your tank was stable. I just hope that the Efflo makes it. It sometimes takes weeks to see the distress, then it's too late.

You are more than welcome to come and look at my tank and I will give you all the DO and DON'TS that I have been thru. I hope you have a few hours. I have made ALOT of mistakes and bought stuff I should have waited on but you live and learn. I only wished I would have asked more questions BEFORE spending the $$$. I learned the expensive way.

Again, If you feel that this was a personal attack, then I apologize. I hope you don't loose anything and I hope you get this tank stable before it's too late. If I can be of any help, LMK.

Steve

[caferacermike]

BigBird what I had said was that my tank was stable for a year. I checked the params on Wednesday of last week, bought the coral earlier this week and checked them again last night. I was totally thrown off and that's why I came straight to maast to seek advice to see if I had overlooked something. You seemed to miss that part as well. You also seemed to miss the one time I offered you to fess up to your joke and you neglected. Then it was time for me to respond after you ignored my question of whether you were being serious.

I feel pretty sure that by disturbing the 20 lbs of rock work that I kept in my fuge and sump, giving it to Euclid to help him out, may have knocked my tank a bit. I will plan to cut back from one silverside a day to 1 every other day for the grouper. Honestly though the grouper has reached the size that I had planned to trade him off at. He grew from 1/2" to 6" in one year most of it being in the last 2 months. I had always planned to trade him off when he got this large. I will also be moving my frog fishes from the fuge and into their new 24 nano that was setup just for them. That will help to cut down on some of the food.

I have done 2 15g water changes. Already set my skimmer wetter. Phosphates have come down one ppm and my nitrites have zeroed. I was able to get my alk back up to 7 as well. Let's hope they saty that way and only continue to get better. I'm planning to continue doing 10-15g water changes daily for the next 2 weeks to export nutrients and hopefully stabilize everything again and not just get them right overnight only to have them crash because I overlooked something.

I really think I created a mini cycle by removing my excess rock work. I also removed about a pound of caulerpa while I was in the sump. That week was also the same week I really cranked up my lighting. So hopefully by doing daily water changes I can keep my water quality up while everything catches back up. Honestly until I upped my lighting none of my SPS really ever polyped. Now they are all adding tissue, getting bulkier at the bases, and I cannot get over how fuzzy each one is. I hear you guys saying they do not like the excess nitrates, and I do belive you, but what's got me is everything looks better than ever. The efflo has a greenish hue along with the purple and white polyps. A few other frags that I got that had browned in the previous tank have all done a 180 and colored right up.

Let's hope it was just a mistake on my part to remove the rock, disturb the fuge and add new lighting all in the same week. Silly me I was just trying to make things better and had just made plans to buy an even larger lighting fixture.

[cpreefguy]

Glad to hear everything is doing better

[BIGBIRD123]

[quote=" You also seemed to miss the one time I offered you to fess up to your joke and you neglected. Then it was time for me to respond after you ignored my question of whether you were being serious. [/quote]

I'm sick like that...I believe in letting people steam for a little while...

Again, I offer my apology and help if you need it.

Steve
254-458-4791

[thedude]

Personally, I don't think the removal of 20 lbs of rock would ever cause your levels to rise that much or that quickly. I think that your addition of light has caused all of these "problems". I say problems in quotations because I believe that time, water changes, and keeping your ER rocking out the skimmate will quickly balance your tank.

The thing we DO need to worry about is your calcium and alk levels. I'd cut all supplements and keep up with frequent water changes until they come down to a normal level (speaking about calcium).

[caferacermike]

I've heard about bad alk and CA tests for so long that's why I included my doubts along with my readings. I have a really nice Professional series Doc Wellfish kit that comes in the plastic tackle box. I also bought additional phos and CA tests to add to it. I did not trust the tests after reading what Gary had told other members about CA dropping out around 600ppm, that was months back. So I started thinking about getting another test and heard stories that even Salifert tests were not that accurate. So what to do? Spend big money on Salifert test kits to find out I got a bad one? Buy the super pricey but super nice Seachem kit? I really didn't know what to try after reading so many threads about inaccurate test kits that I decided to keep using mine but only as a reference point. Knowing it was taking 32 drops on average to change the color I was keeping tabs to see if it ever rose or declined. That way I at least knew if something was changing.

John I was having the same feeling that my increased lighting had changed the demands in the tank and may have just been making things a little awry until everything settles back in place. Thanks for at least giving a nod to it as well. I'll just keep up with daily water changes and testing.

[GaryP]

I suggested in an earlier post to borrow another kit to verify the results of your current kit before spending money on another one. Salifert kits are generally considered reliable. I think there was some problems with an alkalinity kit. Personally I like the Seachem calcium kit. Basically the same as Salifert, but you got a lot more kits for the $ and they are easier to find and don't go on back order the way that Salifert does.

[Enigma13]

I know I am supposed to come your way sometime as I have promised over and over, but the two little ones have been keeping a tight rein on me. If you have time to come my way sometime with a water sample we could check you calcium with my test kit. I recently learned the truth about bad test kits when I had a pH test kit go bad. Not so bad as to know the kit was bad, but enough to start wondering. (It always read 7.9 no matter how recently I had added some buffer). Got a new kit and it read 8.3. I am glad that I use the SeaChem reef buffer that will not let me shoot above 8.3 or I probably would have been through the roof. Glad to hear that despite the elevated levels things have not started dying off. Hopefully, everything will come back in line without casualties. Let me know if I can help.