method of cycling?

[saltcreepette]

I have limited funds and want to cycle my new 75 gallon fairly quickly not using any material that has been in contact with fish recently. my only three ideas are:

live sand in a bag ($30)

live rock--a few pieces, 5lbs maybe ($30)

marineland bio spira live bacteria ($27)

which OF THESE THREE would you think would be the best/quickest? (I chose these three cuz they will have some quantities of the bacteria already present, as opposed to using a piece of shrimp and waiting a month or longer)

[saltcreepette]

ps all i have in the tank currently is about 10 lbs crushed coral a heater and some powerheads.

[MattK]

Are you trying to get it setup for all the stuff you're getting from KJ?

[saltcreepette]

im not getting any stuff from kj. maybe youre thinking of someone else...

[GaryP]

My answer: None of the above.

All are going to be effective in adding aerobic bacteria. None are going to be effective in establishing a denitrifying bacterial culture for maintaining low nitrates. All are going to contain denitrifying bacteria but an active culture is not going to be established without a DSB or a lot more LR.

[JimD]

Why are you in such a hurry? Slow down and do it the right way using live rock.

[betiuminside]

If I had the chance to get a new tank or start all over again I would do this…. I will make the DSB then I would buy all the rock I can afford…. Build your aqua space the way you want, and then let is cycle … try to get all the equipment you need or want and put it together ASAP… let it run…………

Then start getting all the corals or fish you want. Don’t pay all the consequences I had to pay because I wanted to get it up and running in 2 days. The time and effort would be paid off at the end.

(Try to get your sump designed or costumed for all your equipment, so you don’t have any headaches later on)

Good luck

GaryP-

What would you think would be the procedure to set up a tank the right way?

[GaryP]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Nothing good happens fast in this hobby.

[MattK]

im not getting any stuff from kj. maybe youre thinking of someone else...

Duh... you're right, stupid me.

[saltcreepette]

aw, I know all that stuff you guys. believe me if I could, I would LOVE to take it slow and easy with this tank. however, my current dillema is this. I have a 37 gallon and I came upon an excellent niger trigger quite unexpectedly and brought him home. I didnt realize it at the time but my 37 had ich. now, I have a crowded tank with ich (I had myself talked out of doing a trigger tank but then I accidentally found this one so kind of rushed myself into it. I know, I know). so, while I treat the fish for ich, which will take probably two to three weeks, I need to cycle this new 75 gallon. while the 37's rock and sand go fallow and the ich dies off. once its been four weeks I can add that to the 75 for more live rock and biological filtration. in total I plan to have about 80-100 lbs of LR in the 75 when all is said and done. It will primarily be a tank to house this trigger, and secondarily, house some soft corals.

Gary, I knew you'd say none of the above ;) Besides, I am more a student of the berlin method, as opposed to the DSB method, so dont plan on doing a DSB with this system. I have successfully kept nitrates at or below 15-20 with all my previous setups (including my 55 reef) and I and my corals are happy with that.

Well, anyone else care to chime in on which of the three I listed would do the best job of introducing the most starter bacteria? Should I ALSO add any food? how much, how often? thanks.

[Instar]

I use the live sand in a bag called Aragalive to completely cover the bottom (NOT deep) and a few good clean pieces of cycled rock and a couple rocks with live mushrooms (expensive but so worth it for a good extra little innoculation of bacteria) on them to top it off. Fish go in the next day. Still have to go through the algae cycles but with clean up crew in place its not all that terrible. In the beginning, the only thing I care about is ammonia and nitrites and this handles it quite well. I was dosing with Bactervital at the time as well. This does not come without risks though, so you have to understand what you are doing with the bacteria and the ammonia quite clearly. My last fast tank, a 75 gallon, set up in a couple hours with some fully cured larger live rock for a couple fair sized tangs, turned up with a very nice coraline and very clean looking white sand is a very short time. In addition to the sump and skimmer, it has a tunze for circulation and no disease issues at all. To be fair though, these tangs have been at my place for 5 years so they are not prone to ick. So far not many people are successful with instant reefs, so give it lots of thought and study if you can.

[Alamo]

I would drop in a HEB shrimp in a nori clip to boost the process along.

[saltcreepette]

thanks larry. I will pick up some LR and a bag of sand. as I said before, it'll be around three weeks till the fish go in so there will be some time for the bacteria to ramp up.

[Bill S]

Well, here's an interesting idea... Travel down to CB Pets. Tell Richard you want to do a Hiatt setup on your tank. He'll get you some tri-base carbon, a canister filter and some starter bacteria. You will be able to add that trigger in less than 72 hours. Probably 24 hours.

Yeah, yeah I know. I guess I need to post the picture of the SPS that I added on day EIGHT of my 215. It's now quadrupled in size.

[loans_n_fishes]

I'd put that live rock in. Then after you get your ammonia spike and know the cycle has started, add the biospira, test for ammonia and add the fish.

Biospira has boosted my cycle TREMENDOUSLY before.

By the way, I'm loving the tonga branch I got from you. I am right around the corner from starting that seahorse tank....bought the tank and lights! :w00t

[GaryP]

If you are going with the Berlin method, why are you adding sand? I'm confused. Besides, a Berlin tank is hardly a low-cost set up. You're going to need a very powerful skimmer to make up for the lack of a DSB. In addition, it seems like a lot of the BB guys are also running large refugiums and some are now adding sulfur reactors to control nitrates. If you are talking about making this a predator tank I think your problems with nitrates are going to be a lot more difficult then with a reef tank. Check with Donnie. He has been struggling with controlling nitrates in his aggressive reef tank for years. He has become an expert in nitrate control strategies as a result and has done some remarkable cutting edge stuff. However, I could never call what he has done as "low-cost" solution. His sump, skimmer, refugiums, pumps, and sulfur reactor cost more then most people's tanks.

Where is the nitrates going to go? No DSB. The crushed coral is going to trap a lot of detritus. Even if you add smaller sand, it will float to the top. Not much LR. You didn't mention what kind of skimmer you were going to put on here, but a Berlin system with predators is going to require a brute. I didn't notice anything about a refugium either. I guess I am missing something here.

I'm sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear, but as you said you expected it from me. I'm just giving you my opinion. Take it for what its worth.

[saltcreepette]

i dont need to add him in a matter of days. its going to be two weeks at least before I am done treating those fish for ich.

I have read richard's thread, am curious about the hiatt setup, but havent heard back yet on how much it costs to start up (for the bacteria and tribase carbon). I know the canister filter is around a hundred (the filstar he recommends) and at this moment I dont have quite that in my fish tank budget (root canal sort of screwed up the finances) :(

[GaryP]

Sort of screwed up more then your finances too. Root canals are such fun!

[saltcreepette]

well you know, as sucky as it was, it wasnt as bad as people made it out to be. you dont feel anything, after all! cant suck too bad. the more painful part to me by far was writing the check!

[GaryP]

Its the pain before the canal that was bad for me. I had 2 done in 3 days once. They got the wrong tooth the first time. I won't comment about what I thought of that. I hadn't slept in about 4 days.

[saltcreepette]

oh, I didnt have any pain before the canal. I had a crowned tooth that I needed to have recrowned, and the xrays showed that I had better get a root canal quick before it got painful. I had an abcessed tooth once though, THAT was some of the worst pain ive ever had!

[Richard]

To do a Hiatt system on a 75 gallon tank you would need to go to a torpedo canister filter and an external pump to give you a flow rate of 600 - 750 gph thru the torpedo. Price wise probably around 400 or so to do it. This would replace all other filtration (sump, skimmer etc.). This system works best when you plan your tank to be a Hiatt system rather than just trying to add it on to an existing setup. For example if you add a sump to the 75 then you would need another torpedo to add more carbon plus a little larger pump to account for the water volume of the sump. To run your sytem entirely on the hiatt system using filstars you would need 3 xp3's to hold the right amount of carbon (12lbs) so that would not be practical. Just adding one filstar with 4 lbs of carbon would probably keep you from having any type of ammonia spike but would give variable results in terms of nitrate/phosphate reduction IME. It's really a system that works the way it works and if you start trying to make your own path then the results are unpredictable. Price wise the bacteria about $10 and carbon around $7/lb. Both one time expense although I would replace a few lbs of carbon every 6-8 months so that you continue to get the clarification properties of carbon. Also I add a little bit of bacteria after rinsing/backflushing the carbon as a "just in case" although Hiatt says it isn't necessary.

On my 92 I started with uncured liverock and within days added fish (firefish at that) and some corals. Never saw ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. The only thing I saw was elevated phosphate levels and a of course hair algae to go with it. This was because PO4 from the uncured rock exceeded nitrate production (the reduction ratio is 4:1 respectively). In order to fix that I just had my wife triple the feeding for a couple of days and phosphate was down to undetectable and the hair algae began to die off.

You should check if any stores up there carry TLC bacteria. It's works as good as biospira and is around $12 for a bottle that treats 240 gallons. Just dose the recommended amount every other day (3 times) and you should not see any ammonia/nitrite spike. This is how we started up all our store tanks and we had no problems with ammonia/nitrite.

[saltcreepette]

thanks richard for telling me about the TLC. do you know who makes it and what the TLC stands for (will help me when I am calling around.) again, thanks!

[Richard]

Tender Lovin Care????

I really don't know. It's just called TLC make sure you ask for the saltwater one (they have a freshwater version). Made by Aquatic Biocontrol.

If they have it they know what your talking about. If they don't then they don't have it.

They have another one called S.A.T. (uhh Standard Aptitude Test maybe). That's not for cycling a tank so don't get that one. It's just to help with algae control.

[saltcreepette]

probably not likely that petsmart would carry it huh ;) I will call around, thanks!

[caferacermike]

saltcreepette I've noticed you mention petsmart numerous times. They are really quite limited in what they can provide. Why not try some of our outstanding LFS in Austin? Aquatek is an excellent choise, but a bit pricey. River City Aquatics are wonderful folks that can help you out. Both listed are sponsors of the site and therfore should always be your first stop. Aquadome is great on a budget, I really like Gary. The dome has a friendly and laid back staff that won't load you up with intimidating "fish talk". I cannot recommend Austin Aquariums, I've been ripped off there one to many times. Others may not feel the same way and might recommend them. There are plenty of others but the Tek, The Dome, and RCA are probably the most compitent, courteous, and understanding shops in town. Most any of those stores could probably get you cycled in a few days. The Dome has great LR always in stock. The Tek used to keep lot's of live sand on hand, not sure since they moved everything around. And best of all, when you spend your dollars at local shops, those dollars stay in our community.

[loans_n_fishes]

I think Austin Aquariums carries it. Might want to check Aquadome or Aquatek as well...

[kkutac001]

I used the raw piece of shrimp, too. I must say, the next day it stank. Phew. I left it in one more day, then removed it. I don't remember now exactly how many days the cycle took, starting when I threw the shrimp in (actually, buried about 1/8" deep in the sand). It was less than a week, though. ..Karl

[saltcreepette]

I was kind of referring the the fact that the big box stores usually dont have some of the more quality, specialized items.

Regarding shopping at locally owned stores, I know what you guys are saying, and you need to understand where I am coming from too, so I will explain. I work from home and cant leave the house until rush hour and I need to have my toddler fed dinner and in bed by 7:30pm. So rather than not take care of him and spend my time and gas driving 35 minutes (one way) to any of the places you mentioned in the heat of the day during rush hour traffic, I must choose to buy close to my home. Partners is a privately owned shop near my house and I actually end up buying from them quite often. But if they dont have it, and/or its cheaper at WalMart/Petsmart/Petco (my LAST ditch choice) then I get what I need from those places. I hope you understand ;)
Partners actually said they used to carry the TLC but didnt have it anymore. I ended up getting 10 lbs aragalive sand, and a couple bottles of the Hagen Cycle bacteria, and a few pieces of live rock. That should do the trick. I still would like to get you guys' opinion on whether I should add anything to the tank to 'feed' the bacteria that I introduced. now that they are there, dont they need to feed (as a result of decaying food) in order to multiply? thanks to all of you for your help and suggestions.

[kkutac001]

I actually read about some guy who added ammonia to his tank in order to feed the nitrosomonas (et. al.) bacteria during the cycle. He thought it better to do this than to use fish during the cycling. The ammonia approach involved calculations for adding which increased over time, in order to build up the bacterial population.
On the other hand, I used a raw shrimp, as I'd mentioned previously. Much easier; less precise. No worries. ..Karl

[Bill S]

On my 55, I used some recycled beer. Seriously.

[caferacermike]

I've read about using pure ammonia from the drugstore as well. Not the kind you wash windows with, must be from a good drugstore. And Bstreep, seriously, your way was mentioned as well in the same article. Did you use a tall ladder?

[Bill S]

No... a long hose?

[saltcreepette]

(groooooan)

[kkutac001]

btw, I looked back in my tank log -- you know, the notebook you record all your testing, additions, blah, blah in -- and it took not just under a week, but rather exactly 7 days. So, to cycle in 7 days using a shrimp seems pretty easy and cheap. ..Karl

[matt]

There's no reason to add a dead shrimp, rotten food, beer, ammonia, or anything to "get the bacteria going" in a new system. In fact, it's far better to use cured live rock, or cure it in the tank with no sand, then change ALL the water, then put in sand and your rock back in. An ammonia spike followed by nitrite and nitrate does nothing beneficial for your tank; it's just that people accept that they're going to have one before they can put in livestock. The bio filter will build and decline in relation to available substrate (that's your sand and rock) and the bioload. If you were to use 100% cured rock and a new sand bed, maybe with a little live sand to seed, and had a tiny little nutrient spike, your tank would be just as capable of supporting livestock as the same tank started with uncured rock and having gone through a huge ammonia spike; in fact, you'd be better off because there would be far less nitrate and other algae fuels in the tank.

[saltcreepette]

yes thats very true matt. no reason to have an ammonia spike bla bla bla. unless youre like me and cant afford to buy a whole bunch of live rock and time to let it cook/cure/ whatever else. unfortunately in my particular situation (financially and time wise) I don't. I just have a brand new tank and the substrate and rock doesnt have enough of a biological filter to be able to POOF handle a trigger and three other fish. So, I am doing it the old way, trying to build up the biofiltering capacity of the tank to coincide with the sudden bioload. I wouldnt normally start up a tank this way but under the current circumstances (purchase and treatment of a large fish) I am sort of stuck and I need the tank to be READY in two weeks. (see explanation on page one of this thread)

[matt]

Based on what you say in your first post, your best bet is to provide as much substrate as you can for bacteria. This means lots of sand and rock. It doesn't have to be pretty live rock, just someplace for the bacteria to colonize. A couple inches of sand would really help too; it's not that expensive. You don't need "live sand" in the bags, just some araganite and acup or two of live sand from someone else's tank. I would also suggest you scrape together whatever you can to buy someone's rock from a tank; it seems like there are lots of members selling rock pretty cheap these days. Personally I'd probably ditch the crushed coral or maybe just sprinkle a bit on top of the sand to help keep it in place.

If you provide the substrate and don't add any uncured rock, you should be able to support your fish pretty soon. Adding all the bacteria in the world (a daunting task!) won't help unless you have anough surface area for them colonize. Sorry if this doesn't fit your "which of these three" request. Other inexpensive options for increasing the substrate would be live rock rubble from someone's tank or maybe some old bioballs someone might give you.

[saltcreepette]

good advice matt. I only have enough crushed coral in there to barely cover the bottom, and I just added it pretty much because I already had it. I did add the other 10 lbs of live sand. I think that plus the live rock will get me started. I've got my eye out for some more cheap live rock. I do have some bioballs that I can add into the back of an old hob filter I have, that will help some (plus I can use it to run carbon once in a while). Since this amount of substrate that is currently in the 75g tank is pretty much the same amount that was in the old 37g, It should be enough to handle the current bioload. but of course the more the merrier so things will be better once I add more. (I just cant pay premium live rock prices. unfortunately I cant make it down to SA to buy LR from monica although I would like to.) I want to keep a fairly SSB so that I can clean it since the trigger is going to be sort of messy. So I guess I really do need to find some more live rock. Also I was thinking about adding a small amount of food (1/4 cube) in every four or five days so the bacteria has enough food so they have what they need to colonize the sand and rock. does that sound adequate/excessive?

[matt]

Also I was thinking about adding a small amount of food (1/4 cube) in every four or five days so the bacteria has enough food so they have what they need to colonize the sand and rock. does that sound adequate/excessive?

I wouldn't add any food other than feeding your fish. Don't worry about the presence of bacteria, they're around. If you're really concerned you could add some bacteria in a bottle at the same time you add the fish.

[saltcreepette]

right now there are no fish in the tank, therefore my thought is I need to add SOMETHING for the bacteria to eat so they can multiply. do you agree?

[Instar]

If you do add the bacteria bottle, do it the day before the fish so it can colonize substrate and surfaces and be "settled out" so to speak. Most of it will adhere to the substrates in 24 hours and be ready for the fish. This also makes the water clear for the fish addition.

Like Matt, I see no positive purpose in the shrimp or letting uneaten fish food decay in a new tank. There is already plenty of dead stuff in "live rock". If you have a full bacterial loading colony representation, it works without any mess or fuss and you can get it to work without a tragic dramatic ammonia or nitrite spike. The spiking/cycling thing is a really a thing from the distant past since there is live sand and bacteria cultures readily available. This does not apply to nasty dirty mostly dead newly imported live rock of course. That stuff is a mess inside as is obvious when you check the tank a day or two later. That bad spike and recovery really throws the trace content and purity of the new salt off too and that's why the 100% water change is preferred after all the nasty stuff is digested and cycled to more harmless products.

If you use about an inch to inch and a half of a completely colonized live sand (not just a cup to innoculate it) and that is not too fine a grain, you can support the fish immediately. If using just a scattering of live sand, it takes time to mature and colonize all the sand bed and therefore takes longer to support a fish load.

[saltcreepette]

thanks Gary. question on the live sand though; since most people usually recommend against re-using an entire sandbed (whether its from a moved tank or from someone else selling it), are you referring to the aragalive-type sand sold in stores?

[OldSalty]

Why don't ya just buy a bottle of biozime. It's live bacteria and cheap. Tank will be ready in 24 hours.

[saltcreepette]

already added bacteria sand and rock. fish arent going in for three weeks due to QT.