Nitrates

[Louie3]

I have been battling nitrates ever since i started my wimpy reef tank (almost 2 years ). I used to use de chlorinated tap water for 1 year and 8-9mths, i bearly started using RO water 3-4 months ago and have changed more then 55g.

so i was thinking about putting my corals, fish and 29g of water in my spare 29g tank. and completely empting my 55g tank, and refiling it with RO water. would this be logical or should i use some sort ot nitrate reductor?

AM,0
Nitrite, 0
Ph,8.2
NITRATE OVER 160

[betiuminside]

Are you using a refugium?
I battle for months high nitrates... but finally they are at 0, after implementing the fuge and weekly water changes....

Not sure about empting the tank... maybe 50% water changes...

[Louie3]

my only problem is that im looking for a(n) over flow. ( dont realy wanna spend 80 bucks on one.) I have a refugium setup up and ready for use, it has its light, sand cheato and a piece of LR. my only drawback is the dang overflow

[GaryP]

High nitrates means one thing. That you are not removing them through dentrification as fast as the bacteria are producing them through nitrification.

Your choices are simple.

1. Provide a better denitrification environment - DSB
2. Remove the nitrogen wastes before they enter the nitrogen cycle - skimming, physical filtration, scavengers, and siphoning.
3. Provide algae that will untilize the nitrogen compounds - macroalgae in a refugium
4. Dilution - frequesnt large water changes.

A combination of the techniques above is probably necessary to achieve success.

[Bill S]

Louie,

Talk to Ace (hobogato) about making you one. Tell him you are a high school student. He's a high school biology teacher.

[betiuminside]

ohhh ok... try to get an used one.... or maybe you can get with Ace... so he can build one for you... maybe cheaper...

Good luck hunting that Overflow Box.

[Louie3]

Louie,

Talk to Ace (hobogato) about making you one. Tell him you are a high school student. He's a high school biology teacher.

thats cool ill send him a pm saying that you sent me :shades

thanks

[Louie3]

Your choices are simple.

1. Provide a better denitrification environment - DSB
2. Remove the nitrogen wastes before they enter the nitrogen cycle - skimming, physical filtration, scavengers, and siphoning.
3. Provide algae that will untilize the nitrogen compounds - macroalgae in a refugium
4. Dilution - frequesnt large water changes.

A combination of the techniques above is probably necessary to achieve success.
1. I have a 7" sand bed
2.I have a crappy skimmer RedSea berlin air lift ($40 at lfs) but does an all right job i only have 5 fish, and zoos,10 snails,4 hermits.
I do have (2) Pegiun Bio-wheel 350 with 8 carbon packs, siphoning my 2nd enemy i always end up taking out to much sand.
3. awaiting lfs to get new ship ment of macro so i can pick some up
4. i do a 10g water change every week.

[GaryP]

Another option would be a plenum.

[Louie3]

plenum?

[GaryP]

plenum?
http://www.pgjr.alpine.k12.ut.us/aqua/plenum.html

[Louie3]

Gary? :o

[GaryP]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2002/feature.htm

[Darth-Tater]

Louie, I found this on on E-bay. Also I did a search on hang on overflow box and a # of them popped up. Good luck in your search.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130006457887&ssPageNam e=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX_Stores


Google search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=overflow+boxes

Good luck
DT

[Louie3]

so basicly its 3 levels of sand? CONFUSED :wacko

[GaryP]

No, basically its an empty space under the sand that provides a big area for denitrification to take place.

[hobogato]

that ebay link from david looks promising.

[Louie3]

I read the instructions again and got how it works, that seems kind of extreme though, i put more sand in my aquarium up to 50-65lbs. if i cant get the fuge going ill resort to this thanks Gary :)

[Louie3]

thanks for the link im trying to work something with ace

[GaryP]

What kind of sand is it?

[Louie3]

Half fiji live and the rest is sugar fine.

[Louie3]

bottom Fiji, half of the top sugar fine

[saltcreepette]

wow, 160! the book natural reef aquarium by tullock has a good description of how to set up a tank with a plenum. but if you are going to start over to set up a plenum, then you are going to start over and will probably get rid of your nitrate (nutrient sink sandbed) right there. (just to show you I'm not prejudiced against sandbeds, I have one, just not that deep) pm me for an in depth thread by a NOAA staff member regarding discussions about DSB's. I would seriously rethink your setup/method. (that is in no way meant as an insult, I hope you don't take it that way) Another great book is ultimate marine aquariums which has several tanks setups explained in full and you can base your tank off of what is already working for other people.

[saltcreepette]

Gary, rather than the nitrate as a result of the nitrogen cycle, could it be that he was adding it straight to the tank via using nonfiltered water? because I personally have a very high fish load in my little tank and I use RO/DI and do infrequent water changes, and my nitrate is only (only!) 20. just a thought.

[GaryP]

Gary, rather than the nitrate as a result of the nitrogen cycle, could it be that he was adding it straight to the tank via using nonfiltered water? because I personally have a very high fish load in my little tank and I use RO/DI and do infrequent water changes, and my nitrate is only (only!) 20. just a thought.

Yes, there is some low levels of nitrate in the drinking water supply. I checked the SA water website and they report 1.84 ppm as the average concentration. Let's take a look at that for a minute and use my system as an example. My evaporation rate is about 3% per day. That means that if I was using tap water I would be adding about .06 ppm of nitrate, based on the total system volume, per day. A 10% water change would add about .18 ppm. A healthy system should be able to handle that much nitrate with no problem at all. Its a drop in the bucket compared to what we add to the system in the form of food every day.

A lot of these details are available from your water utility. They have to test, and report, these data to be in compliance with the federal Safe Water Drinking Act (SDWA). Water quality reports are available in SA here:

http://www.saws.org/our_water/waterquality/Report/archive.shtml

If you water utility doesn't have them available on their website they are required by law to provide you with a copy of the report by some other means when requested. I think our report comes in our water bill every year.

Nutrient management is simply a matter of balancing imports (what goes in the tank) with export (what you take out). In the case of nitrates the imports are source water (make-up and water changes), food, supplements, and any traces of nitrates in the salt you use. Food is obviously the major import. Before we go any further, I am NOT advocating cutting back on feeding. Most people aren't feeding enough as it is now.

The major export is denitrification. That's done by the bacteria that live in low oxygen areas like in a DSB, plenum, and the deep pores of LR. Macro algaes use nitrate as a nutrient, as well as ammonia and nitrite. That's how a refugium works to reduce nitrates. A refugium with a DSB gives you a double whammy. Other exports target organic nitrogen compounds before they break down and enter the nitrogen cycle. These include filtering (carbon & mechanical), skimming, and siphoning. Water changes export both organic and inorganic nitrogen compounds but unless you are going to do daily water changes its just a piece of the puzzle. No single export technique is going to totally address the export requirements of a system. It tales a combination.

I think that physical filtration is an under utilized technique for nitrate management. A lot of people use physical filtration, but unless the filters are changed and/or cleaned on a regular basis the material caught in them just decays and enters the nitrogen cycle leaving undigestible bits that have little impact on nutrients.

IMO, imports are rarely the key to managing nitrates, or any nutients for that matter. The key is to develop a series of export strategies that are capable of handling the load on the system produced by the imports. In Louie's case, his DSB, physical filtration, skimmer, and water changes are apparently incapable of handling the load. He needs to look at other alternatives such as a plenum, a better skimmer, or a refugium to better manage them. He may want to also take a look at how he uses the carbon /physical filters as well and make sure he doesn't have stuff decaying there.

Some folks here seem to be having a lot of success with the sulfur reactors and I am following that technology closely. I'm not sure that is the answer for smaller systems operated on a smaller budget. They do seem to be one answer for folks that have larger systems that for one reason or another don't want to use a DSB.

OK, I have probably already overloaded you for today. I'm going to go chase innocent gobies and peppermint shrimp at the coast. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was lecturing. Class is dismissed. :)

[hobogato]

this will be in the mail today louie


http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/louieoverflow.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/louieoverflow2.jpg

[GaryP]

Wow! Nice work Ace...

[hammondegge]

awwwww man, that's what i was going to say. with an extra "!"

[Bill S]

Wow, Ace, I need one of those for my 55...

Gary, I've tested our tap water (SAWS) several times, and we have nitrates over 10. OUCH.

[saltcreepette]

it never ceases to amaze me that one person can pick apart the reasons you should use a DSB and/or refugium and make perfect sense, and another person can argue FOR having them and make just as much sense.

I started out in the hobby with crushed coral. then went to a SSB. then I went barebottom for six months. after using RO/DI water and doing water changes with the BB, and a very good, large skimmer, I still developed nitrate (20ppm) Then I went back to having a SSB (like the way it looks) for a year, and recently I added some more sand (now at 2 inches give or take in some areas due to sand shifting).

Even if a DSB actually does help process nitrate, its still going to be a trap for detritus whereas with the berlin method--skimmer, lots of flow, bare bottom--you have less breaking down to begin with so there is less waste to be turned into nitrate to begin with.

My worry with a DSB is, with all that detritus trapped its going to eventually become so saturated with it/nutrient, its a time bomb. The other thing is those hydrogen sulfide areas (black stagnant areas which are toxic to the tank if they ever become disturbed). You might argue in favor of sand stirring animals to prevent these pockets from occuring, but isnt that also defeating the process of creating anaerobic areas for nitrate to be processed, thus the working argument FOR a DSB?

I do not understand these things fully; these are questions I have and need answers to. I am not here to argue but to learn, so please dont feel you are lecturing; you are helping!

[Bill S]

Well, I've been in this hobby - saltwater - for over 35 years. The evolution of the hobby is just amazing. And it continues to evolve, and always will. What was bleeding edge 5 years ago, is now old technology. As we - all of us - get more experience, experiment more, etc., we learn more.

In my case, my 55 is on older technology with a 10 gallon fuge - nitrates are low. My 215 is BLEEDING EDGE, with a series of tribase carbon filters (Hiatt), and the nitrates are just barely detectable with a Salifer low end scale (a very light tinge of pink, less than ONE). The skimmer produces about 2 oz a week - that's it. But, it's still a relatively new setup - about 3 or 4 months. So, the jury is still out on it.

[Ping]

A deep sand bed is just another tool we have to help complete the nitrogen cycle. While it helps us process our bio load, we can overload a sandbed with too many fish. That is why we need to stock slowly and test our water parameters after introducing a fish. We need to make sure we are not overloading our system.

A deep sand bed has many benefits. I have only read of one system that crashed due to a DSB releasing hydrogen sulfide. This was on reef central and I believe he was doing some serious rearangning. The rest of the fears of a DSB are urban legends.

A DSB will build up too much detritus if you have too many fish, but you can add more fish with a DSB, test and be patient after each new addition to our systems. A well balanced clean up crew for the sand bed will not release toxins into our tanks. Most of the sand sifting is done by Micro life forms. Especially if we aquire some sand from an established system.

If the current is too high for a DSB or a sand bed at all in the main display, a remote fuge/DSB with macro algae provides so many benefits and so little risk.

The Berlin system works - but it requires regular siphoning or extreme water movement to keep the detritus in suspension. combining the Berlin method, (live rock and skimming) and the Monaco sytem, DSB (Jaubert), works very well. How much skimming is up for debate.


Louis, if the added fuge and macro algea do not lower the nitrates to a desirable level, consider lowering you fish level.

I speculate the bio wheels are creating nitrates too rapidly. Possibly an incomplete nitrogen cycle due to a bacteria imbalance caused by the Bio wheels. Just speculation though, and I may get flamed for it. This is not based on any data or reference. Posibly just another urban legend.

[Louie3]

Louis, if the added fuge and macro algea do not lower the nitrates to a desirable level, consider lowering you fish level.

I speculate the bio wheels are creating nitrates too rapidly. Possibly an incomplete nitrogen cycle due to a bacteria imbalance caused by the Bio wheels. Just speculation though, and I may get flamed for it. This is not based on any data or reference. Posibly just another urban legend.

I only have 2 false preculas, 1 convict tang, 2 damsels, I dont think thats to much all the fishes are about 2 inches in length except the tang, the tang does realese alot of poo ebery day but i wouldt think that would be to much. And I thought the Bio-wheels would help in the nitrate/amonia reduction. if that is the case would you think maybe taking out all the bio-wheels would have a bennifit toward the tank ( total bio wheels 4 )

[hobogato]

the biowheels help your tank with the first two stages of the nitrogen cycle : ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. they do not add excess nitrate, you just dont have a good method of removing the nitrates, like a DSB (in tank or fuge) or macroalgae, etc. i think you will see a huge difference when you get the fuge up and running.

the other thing i will mention, is i had readings of 160 and 200 on two different nitrate test kits at one point on my tank. i added a fuge with a deep sand bed, and they never went down. then i tested my makeup water (from an RO unit) without salt - nitrates undetectable and with salt - same as what i was getting in my tank. my tank never had a nitrate problem, it was the test kits. bottom line, dont just trust one test kit or even two different ones in some cases. take some water into a LFS to get it tested, or borrow a different test kit than you have and test again.

[Ping]

I would not think your fish load would have been too high but your nitrates say it is. I hope a fuge w macro algae help.

As for the bio wheels I have no data except my experience. When I first converted from FW to salt I had a 100g with 2 emperor 400's. A 2 inch SB and no live rock. This in a predator tank. Eel, Trigger, Lion, 2 Damsels.

A friend educated me on live rock and recommended removing the Emperors. I added about 70lbs of rock and added several powerheads. This lowered my nitrates.

So... I did two things at once, so I dont have enough facts on the Bio wheels alone. Just a speculation on my part.

Do you have live rock and if so, is it light and pourous.

[Louie3]

Thanks for the information gary the only way to get stuff through me is to lecture me ( I wish there was a clasas in high school completely the disscusion of reef aquariums.) I'm going to try and have my mum contact the Laguna Madre Water District today and have them tell her or mail us the reults, i can tell oyu one thing if you try and drink tap water here its doesnt taste that great ( thats why we have a water dilvery dude) but if you head up in the san antonio area it taste completly different, im sure that thats what caused it when i first started. I can wait for the over flow that ace built me. i hope the fuge it the dsb and macro will do wonders for my aquarium. I am also thinking of replaceing the carbon filters with either a Nitrate sponge or Phos remover and moving the hob filter to the fuge and hope fully that will work but I want to run my system without the unsigtly use of big bluky filters. and soon when save up a little more cash i will be able to buy a bigger and better skimmer. and then a better clean up crew to help with the poo and algea that grows in places. Thanks for the help gary really really aperciated the help,
AND THANK YOU ACE.
a very big thanks to every one elses help in my Nitrate problem

[hobogato]

i would be willing to bet that the addition of the liverock is what helped the most. but you are right, there is no way to prove that one way or the other. my logic is that the nitrates have to come from somewhere. the bacteria that live in the biowheels are VERY efficient at changing nitrite into nitrate, so either the nitrates are added to the tank in food or water source, or they are chemical product from the breakdown of that nitrogenous waste from our fish, etc. when i had a predator tank, i had it understocked on liverock and had a nitrate issue as well. once i added alot of liverock, it got better, but never great. i cant immagine how much ammonia and nitrite we add into a predator tank just in their food - live or frozen.

[Louie3]

the other thing i will mention, is i had readings of 160 and 200 on two different nitrate test kits at one point on my tank. i added a fuge with a deep sand bed, and they never went down. then i tested my makeup water (from an RO unit) without salt - nitrates undetectable and with salt - same as what i was getting in my tank. my tank never had a nitrate problem, it was the test kits. bottom line, dont just trust one test kit or even two different ones in some cases. take some water into a LFS to get it tested, or borrow a different test kit than you have and test again..

Ace im using Aquarium Pharmicutcls Salt water master test kit ( not that much of a master) When I head up to brownsville some time durring the weekend ill take it to Petland and hopefully the have something better.

[Louie3]

Do you have live rock and if so, is it light and pourous.

Yes I do Have live rock in my aquarium about 20lbs ( I know I need more i need to save up to buy some off Dr.f&S ( LFS+6.99lbs)) They are huge pieces and are very light. compared to their size.

[Louie3]

I know another problem of mine is the live rock issue I dont have enough, I'm still haveing to save up and buy some of a site because im not going to pay for live rock at 6.99lbs- and for 45lbs $314.55! . And I know once Iget more some level will change

[saltcreepette]

louie, I have found live rock from people breaking down their tanks, I think another member here named monica lives in SA (I dont know where laguna vista is, if its close to sa) sells LR. you can get it 'used' for around $2 or $3 and dont have to pay shipping, go that route! ;)

[JeremyGlen]

Ok. I'm going to get into this conversation now.

My question is, what are you feeding your fish, how much per feeding, and how often?

Overfeeding will cause this problem and you'll never get rid of it if you don't cut back. You cvan feed your fish everyday or even more than that, you just can't feed too much because it will just load your system up with nitrates.

As for the live rock, you can get it on eBay and other places for $2-3/lb including shipping if you are just patient and look for a good deal. I have not bought LR from a store since the first piece or two I got to start the tank. If you don't want to get LR get some dry base rock and give the bacteria a place to grow and spread to. By getting dry rock, your "basically" doing the same as having the Bio-Wheel filters, without the splashing and noise.

Once you get the overflow installed and the macro algae growing, I am willing to bet lots of money that you will no longer see nitrates after it has "broken in", meaning the bacteria colony has moved in.

As for the DSB, it si quite important to have "stirring animals" that live in your sand. They do not disturb the denitrifiying bacteria since they do not bring oxygen with them and leave it. Mainly they stay in the first couple of inches of sand and eat all the detritus and waste that creates the dreaded black pockets of death. Nassa snails tend to do a great job, as well as a few others(I like these cause they had lots of babies and I've got them everywhere now). It is also very important to have a nice variety of worms creeping their way all throughout your aquarium. Having a great biodiversity is the best and most sensible way to keep a great aquarium. I always say, "Let nature do its job and help it if it needs little help."

If I were you, I would try and get a couple of pieces of LR from the bottom of someone else's well established aquarium. The pieces touching the sand will have the great number of creatures that roam the rocks, as well as the sand dwelling stuff. I love watching my spaghetti worms and others cleaning the surface of the sand and keeping it clean of waste.

Time is the only true cure for any problem. Never try and "quick" fixes because they don't get rid of the problem, only mask it.

[demodiki]

Monica lives in Franklin, TX. :)

[caferacermike]

Monica kix azz. I bought her out of around 300lbs of rock when she was setting up her new holding tanks. I cannot say enough nice things about her.

[Louie3]

louie, I have found live rock from people breaking down their tanks, I think another member here named monica lives in SA (I dont know where laguna vista is, if its close to sa) sells LR. you can get it 'used' for around $2 or $3 and dont have to pay shipping, go that route! ;)

i wish i was close to SA im about 4 hours away 20min from south padre Island

[Louie3]

Ok. I'm going to get into this conversation now.

My question is, what are you feeding your fish, how much per feeding, and how often?

.

I'm feeding Brine,Blood worms, and a veggie mixtures that come in a frozen cube, I feed every 2 days.

as for rock my mum and dad dont really like ebay and paypal ( identities stolen ) so im down to just a couple of sites.

[hammondegge]

Louie, did i read somewhere in here that you would lose a lot of sand when you siphoned the tank? If you have a deep sand bed, try not to disturb more than the top inch or so when siphoning. your denitrifying bacterias need an environment that is low or no oxygen to thrive.
add your rock (did you ever try to make some?) and the sump/fuge and your nitrates will fall.

[Louie3]

LR did you ever try to make some?).

I did and it came out so brittle and broke when i picked it up, so im going to try again if I dont end up getting some from Dr.F&S

[hammondegge]

did you use a concrete mix? (has cement and sand premixed). if you are following one of the DIY recipes they will most probably call for Portland Cement which has no aggregate added. the shell, or crushed coral, or plastic shavings that you add to this will be your aggregate.

[Louie3]

I added Crushed coral to the portland and it didnt go out that well.