raising alkalinity?

[sharkboy]

How do you raise alkalinity and pH? My calcium levels are out the roof. I have heard that it might have something to do with the salt I use (Oceanic). I dose kalk with top off and have occasionally put in B-Ionic but this increases both pH and Calcium. Any suggestions? BTW my alk 2.17 and pH 8.0 (salifert)

[Enigma13]

I do not use kalk so I do not how that would affect the dosing, but I use SeaChem Reef Builder to up my alk.

[gjuarez]

Hey art, how is it going bud. Kalk should raise the ph a little but that is not the way you probably want to go about it. The ph is low is because you alk is low, as you increase the alk the ph will become more stable. Being that your alk is low, higher levels of calcium are expected. A good way to raise alk is using baking soda, and I belive washing soda will help a bit with the ph as well. YOu would have to talk to Gary on that one. Oceanic is high on calfium and low on alk, perhaps instant ocean might be a better alternative on your next wather change, or at least until you get your alk a little higher.

I would discontinue the use of kalk for the meantime. Kalk works best once you have stable alk and cal. Kalk helps in maintaining those levels. Get your levels where you want them to be and then start dripping again to maintain. Good luck with it and remember to take it slow.

[matt]

Don't discontinue the kalk, keep using it but just add some baking soda; like a teaspoon dissolved in a cup of R.O. water every day for a while until your alk is where you want it, maybe about 3.0-3.5 meq/l. If you have a heavily stocked tank you'll probably need to supplement your KW with an occasional baking soda dose, but so what? baking soda is cheap.

If your ph is 8.0 in the morning that's not particularly low, try measuring it late in the afternoon and see what it is.

[Texreefer]

i believe it is like 6 parts baking soda to 1 part washing soda to get a balamced buffer that won't swing your PH too much at a time. i'm no expert it just works for me

[matt]

Yeah, with the KW he doesn't need to add any washing soda. It's really simple; keep dripping KW and add baking soda occasionally as needed. Let's say your calcium demand eventually eclipses the KW's ability to replenish; you can add occasional dowflake. There you go; pickling lime, baking soda, dowflake. This is a perfectly acceptable (actually, much better than acceptable) method of keeping your tank supplemented without a single trip to the LFS to buy the latest and greatest miracle product or common household substance (I.E sodium bicarbonate) dressed up with a fancy label, a few non-essential additives, and a 1000% mark up.

[sharkboy]

Thanks guys. I guess I will try the buffer. Is this something that I will have to do on a regular basis or is it temporary?

[GaryP]

OK, a little chemistry basics here that got missed along the way.

The reason your alkalinity is low is because your calcium is high. Your syustem is out of balance. This is not uncommon in tanks with low calcium demand that are using Oceanic. I've had the same problem in my softy tank. When either the calcium or alkalinity (or both) is high, calcium carbonate precipitates out of solution. Adding buffer may raise the alkalinity some, but a lot of its going to be lost in the form of precipitation. This also has the effect of reducing the calcium level too. With B-Ionic you are just making some very expensive sand. A lot of scale may end up forming in your pumps so make sure to tear them down and soak them in vinegar to remove any scale build up there.

One thing you can do to help get your system back in balance is to also bump your magnesium level up. Magnesium acts as a precipitation inhibitor. Magnesium loosely bonds with carbonate and prevents it from reacting with calcium to form an insoluble precipitate. Seachem makes a good solid magnesium supplement. In this situation I would suggest making sure that your magnesium concentration is over 1400 ppm.

Oceanic is best used in SPS tanks with rapidly growing corals. It can cause a lot of problems in tanks with low growth where the calcium is not being removed. While calcium is important to coral growth, alkalinity can be even more important. Not only is it used for calcification (skeleton formation) it also regulates pH.

If your calcium is already high from the Oceanic, I see no need to be adding kalk. While Kalk does also raise alkalinity (as well as calcium), its high pH can also increase precipitation. The rate of precipitation goes up with pH. I would discontinue the kalk until you get your alkalinity issues under control. Then start using it again but only with a lot of testing to see what its doing for calcium and alkalinity management. Addressing the alkalinity issue should also solve the low pH. Be aware that pH can vary according to the time of day also. The "low" pH you see in the AM may be perfectly normal (8.2-8.3) in the afternoon. 8.0 isn't really all that low to start with.

[matt]

Oh man you guys are making this so much more complicated than it is. His alkalinity is a little low, and if his ph is 8.0 there's no reason to be concerned about ph related precipitation. Add some baking soda and you'll be all fixed up, it's really that simple.

Regardless of what these guys say, I would stay with the KW, especially considering your slightly low ph. My tank ph (kalkreactor) is almost never lower than 8.3 in the morning. Stopping the KW could cause a ph drop in your tank. KW does many good things for your tank, and the ONLY possible downside is an abnormally high ph, which he doesn't have. Regarding the magnesium, if he's using Oceanic salt and changes water enough to maintain a really high calcium level, I'd be very surprised if he had a magnesium deficiency.

[GaryP]

Matt,

My point was that his calcium levels are "out the roof." whatever that means. I'm guessing at least 600 ppm. Why add more calcium when he already has an imbalance? That's only contributing to the problem. Unless he is using a lot of calcium, he probably doesn't need the kalk in the first place.

On magnesium. I agree that his magnesium level is probably OK, under normal circumstances. This is not normal. Temporarily bumping the magnesium up will help him get back in balance by inhibiting precipitation when he adds buffer. It adds stability to the calcium/carbonate equilibrium when the equilibrium is pushed in one direction or another by high concentrations.

[sharkboy]

Thanks for the input. My Calcium levels are over 500 ppm since the test kit doesnt measure beyond that. Magnesium is at 1320. I don't have much of a calcium demand right now. Just a few lps corals.

[matt]

I have a feeling, as is often the case, that if he reads over 500ppm his calcium test result is probably not exactly accurate; he probably has pretty high calcium, but you and I both know that most test kits are not that accurate at the high end of the scale. What does oceanic salt mix to, about 400-450 PPM? If he were dosing KW to the point where he raised his calcium to 600, he would have a ph way higher than 8.0. The salifert kit, which is probably the best one, only goes to 500 anyway. To get a higher reading you'd have to use the low resolution and I seem to remember Habib saying something about it not being accurate over 500. There are all sorts of things that can cause a high reading, and I've had test kits show a difference of 100ppm on the same sample. So, take ultra high calcium results with, umm, a grain of salt, so to speak.

Really, truly: 1 tsp baking soda dissolved in R.O.water every day until your alk reads 3.0, then as needed. Simple!

[sharkboy]

Thanks. I do use the salifert test kits. That is why I say that they are at least over 500ppm.

[GaryP]

All you have to do is re-fill the syringe to 1.0 ml and keep dripping. Whatever result you get from the 2nd syringe, add 500 to it.

Matt, Oceanic can mix up at 600 ppm at 1.025. I believe Oceanic made the statement that they thought people usually only made up water change water at 1.020-1.022. I know that's stupid. At 1.020 you would end up with something around 480 ppm calcium. The kit may not be accurate above 500, but the point is that its very high. Its easy to do with Oceanic. I've done it. If its above 500 and he is continuing to add calcium with kalk, with no real demand from fast growing corals, its just going to continue to climb. Every water change with Oceanic is like dosing with a pretty hefty amount of calcium chloride, which is basically what you are doing.

We saw this a lot when Oceanic first hit the market and it was the new "miracle" salt. Like I said, its a good salt for high demand tanks but it can cause some problems in other tanks where maintaining alkalinity is more of an issue then calcium. I wouldn't be surprised if the alkalinity in this tank is being depleted at a rate several times faster then the calcium.

[gjuarez]

I totally agree Gary. I love kalk, its one of the best things I have ever used and usually encourage people to use it, but not in Art's case. Arts calcium demands especially with oceanic can easily be met though water changes. I like the idea of a teaspoon of baking soda, slowly dripped through out the day. I am only basing my opinion because of the fact that Art has very few lps, with sps I would totally agree with you Matt.

[matt]

Don't stop using the KW, these guys are not thinking straight. ;) It's not about whether you "need" it for calcium supplementation, it's about what it's currently doing for your tank and what will happen if you stop.

My corner tank was set up for over a month with ZERO corals or fish, dripping KW 24 hrs. Guess where the calcium level was at the end of that month? 420 ppm. (It started at 400) KW will not cause you to have abnormally high calcium levels. If you have a low calcium load and you're concerned about too high a calcium level, get rid of the oceanic salt; just start doing water changes with IO or something else. If you stop using the KW, your ph will go lower, not higher, and since you want it higher...you can figure it out! I would also bet that the KW is helping keep your alk from plummeting, maybe you have really low carbonates and some DOM issues or low ORP, both of which will deplete alkalinity quickly.

One more time....just keep dripping KW, it's definitely not going to hurt anything, and add 1 tsp of baking soda dissolved in R.O. water daily until your alk level is 3.0. Then measure your ph and calcium level and post it on this thread. Or, even better, cut your tank in half, seal it up, and do a little "half KW/half not" experiment!

[Richard]

1.) Check your alkalinity
2.) Use a buffer to maintain alk (baking soda, reef builder, super DKH). I use reef builder.
3.) Quit using kalk
4.) Quit using oceanic and switch to reef crystals (my preference) or IO. Do water changes to bring calcium levels down to a reasonable level.
5.) Start using kalk again when your calcium comes down from "out the roof". At least under 500, 450 or so would be good.



I would also bet that the KW is helping keep your alk from plummeting


Perhaps but it isn't going to help bring his calcium down so his alk won't plummet either.

Have you ever seen a sandbed harden into a solid slab of concrete and then break the seal on a tank as it expanded? I have at 2:00 am :cry Calcium "out the roof" is not a good thing.

[saltcreepette]

KW is purported to MAINTAIN ca levels, not necessarily to raise them. I agree on either keeping up with the kalk or stopping it temporarily (the article states not to use kalk to CORRECT the problem but doesnt clarify if you are currently using it to stop it, so this is just speculation on my part) and using baking soda or just the alk part of a 2 part additive, as is recommended for his situation (zone 4) in this excellent article. (hope its ok to post link)

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

[JeremyGlen]

All I did when I switched from Oceanic and had calcium that was "out the roof" was start using the Reef Success Calk. Thats all I have been using for the past couple of months and I've seen inches worth of growth in my tank. It has brought the calcium down and alk up, both stable as can be now. It may help you, but you do not have sps to use up the excess.

Change salts.

Stop adding calcium in any form.

Get a good buffer to raise alk.

Leave it alone.

You really shouldn't need a Kalk drip unless your trying to grow hard corals. I don't see any reason to have it on a tank with softies and a few lps. Regular water changes should be enough to keep everything in check there.

[Ping]

If you are doseing Kalk, and your tank is not processing the level of calcium it has now, then it will increase the tanks calcium. The Kalk maintaing "calcium level rule" works with a tank that has a lot of coral and a high calcium consumption. This is because Kalk does not add a lot of calcium, however, it is still adding it. And if the system does not use the calcium it has now (too high a level), we are just adding to the problem. HTH.

[saltcreepette]

ping, that is true.

in my case, I have soft corals and one lps, and for whatever reason my regular water changes were not keeping up with ca needs and over time it dropped to 260 (I hadnt been testing regularly). I assumed that since I 'only had softies' that I didnt need to monitor ca beyond regular water changes. I think part of the problem was my IO tested 260 freshly mixed...even though others have said they didnt have that problem, I recently switched to reef crystals) To increase my ca levels I was adding kents liquid ca and adding kalk. Once my ca hit 440 I quit with the kents but am still adding kalk every day or two so I can prevent my ca from dropping so low. my reason for pointing this out is that even in a softy tank, if you dont monitor ca, it can drop too low (my coralline had turned white, and my corals were not growing...that is remedied now, corraline has pinked up and begun to spread again); therefore one still needs to test regularly and take appropriate action based on that fact, not assuming anything (like I did, lesson learned).

I am starting to think the world of reefkeeping is not comprised of any hard and fast rules that apply just the same to every situation. its just knowing what options/technologies are out there and using them to tweak and solve various problems. what works for one tank might or might not work out as well for another, as each of our setups/inhabitants is different.

[JeremyGlen]

Salt,

You were usiung a salt that did not provide the normal amount of calcium. Your Ca was not dropping because of use, it was just not there to begin with. Softy tanks use a very small amount of Ca, but will not deplete that bad.

[sharkboy]

What other benefits besides increased calcium does Kalk have? Does live rock use up any calcium?

[Bill S]

Coraline algae does.

[Ping]

What other benefits besides increased calcium does Kalk have? Does live rock use up any calcium?

raises alkalinity, precipitates phosphates

[matt]

What other benefits besides increased calcium does Kalk have? Does live rock use up any calcium?

Yes, live rock does use calcium to produce coralline algae. Soft corals, xenia, etc all use calcium. But, in all tanks, carbonates get used up faster than calcium, so alkalinity tends to drop faster than calcium levels.

Regarding the benefits of KW, in your tank as you've described it, the main benefit is that it is probably the main thing currently keeping your ph as high as 8.0 and your alk as high as 2.17. (Or whatever you tested at) The calcium that it's putting into your system just is not that important one way or the other. You didn't post how much KW you're dripping, but my guess is that it's not alot, otherwise you'd have a higher ph than 8.0 even in the morning. If you feel a need to stop it based on the other opinions, go ahead, but I'd watch your ph carefully and make sure you're adding buffer. If you do stop with the KW, it's probably best to use a commercial buffer that contains some sodium carbonate to raise your ph. At some point, you might consider ditching the oceanic salt if you feel that your calcium is too high. I wouldn't panic over it though; and I recently read a thread on RC where users of Salifert calcium test kits were getting readings of 460 and 580 on the same tank, just different batches of reagents. Point being, we don't really know exactly what your calcium is, and I'd be willing to bet it's not so high that it's snowstorm time.

BTW, if you keep drippng KW at your current rate and your sand turns to a block of cement, expands, and busts the seals, I will personally buy you a new aquarium. Jeesh!

[saltcreepette]

"You were usiung a salt that did not provide the normal amount of calcium. Your Ca was not dropping because of use, it was just not there to begin with. Softy tanks use a very small amount of Ca, but will not deplete that bad."

thats kinda what I was thinking. which is kinda weird though, cuz ive used IO for three years, and my ca never tested that low, premixed or in the tank. usually it was around 320. but, when it got that low, I decided to switch.

Kalk also helps the skimmer skim more effectively (maybe its that whole precipitating phosphate thing). but, you also have to make sure to clean out your pumps/equipment cuz they get hard deposits on them. heck, the bottom of my skimmer cup even started to grow coralline on it! (the part that was exposed to light)

[sharkboy]

I don't really know how much kalk gets put in but I don't think it is much. I know that kalk doesn't dissolve very well. Basically, I have a trashcan full of ro/di water which is sent in the tank via an auto top off. I put in some kalk and just stir it up every once in a while. I make sure not to stir it up when the water level is low in the sump so that the kalk particles don't get sent in. The pump in the trashcan is elevated as well.

[Belowh20]

Good thread. Lots of great advice and interesting opinions. I have personally bought a tank set-up from some one that the sand turned into a solid rock and had to be chipped out. They were using HW marine mix and dosed B-Ionic everyday for around two years. Lets just say it was a mess. Still busting the seam of the tank seems wild!

Since I set-up this system at my home I changed salts to IO and drip kalk every few days, or whenever I'm home. With softies this has been ideal, but while I had some sps in tank it didn't cut it. It is definitely a good supplement in the right applications and when parameters are in line.

I guess I have one question in response to SharkBoys last post. From what I understand calcium will precipitate out of a solution, and I have always been told that when using kalk mixed with ro/di to store the solution in an air tight container (kalk reactor/drip system/dosing pump) or it will precipitate out and the kalk will turn to an undissolvable state. I was curious if anyone could shed some light on this?

[matt]

What happens is some of the calcium hydroxide reacts with the air on the surface and forms a skin of calcium carbonate. There are differing thoughts about how this affects the potency of the KW in the container overall. Since the KW drops in ph when stored open to the air, for a long time in was thought that the KW would not be as potent in the tank in terms of replenishing calcium and carbonate ions. (Actually, hydroxide ions which react with carbonic acid in the tank to form carbonate ions) Then, Randy Holmes Farley wrote an article which basically said that since the conductivity of the KW does not decrease when exposed to air, the overall saturation rate should remain constant and so the KW should be just as potent. In fact, since the ph is lower, it would stand to reason that you could safely dose more.

My hunch based on some experience using KW in both a sealed container, mixed every other day or so, and an open container that's mixed once every few weeks, and a reactor, is that there is some loss of potency once it's exposed to air; primarily in maintaining alkalinity.

[sharkboy]

I added a teaspoonful of reef builder on Friday and tested my parameters yesterday. Alk 2.63; Ca 460; Mg 1320. Should I add a bit more to get the Alk up to 3 or should I wait and see?

[matt]

You could wait a day or so, see how far it drops, then add another teaspoon. Do you have a small tank? If 1 teaspoon brought you from 2.1 to 2.6 that would suggest a pretty small water volume. Told ya your calcium wasn't that high :roll

What's your tank ph in the morning?

[JeremyGlen]

Nowhere in this thread have you mentioned how big your tank is. The size of your tank is going to determine what we are more willing to suggest. Most of the "fixes" and suggetions that have been given work well for bigger tanks, but are overkill for a smaller one. If you've got a small tank, there really isn't much of a point in having a Kalk reactor since you should be changing water once a week.

[sharkboy]

My tank is a 215 with another 80gal in sump and fuge. After testing parameters on 7/7 the alk 2.16; mag 1365 and ca >500. The alk tested at 1.88 on 7/13. I added the reef builder on7/14 and it bumped it to 2.63. As far as pH, I haven't tested it in the morning. I will do that tomorrow.

[JeremyGlen]

So your talling me that your alk went up that much with one teaspoon of reef builder, and I have to add 6 grams, which is almost one teaspoon, of reef success calk to my 25g everyday? Something doesn't seem right.

I used to add one teaspoon of super buffer to my 55g once every week or two.

On the reef builder site and the bottle, the instructions say one half teaspoon per 40 gallons. In the advanced section it says to raise 1meq will take 2.5 teaspoons in a 50g aquarium. I really don't think one teaspoon did anything at all to your 280-295g aquarium.

[Enigma13]

You should be using a half teaspoon for each 40 gallons of actual water volume. Keep in mind that a 215 gallon does not hold that much water with rock etc. I use 1.5 teaspoons for my 144 with a 40 gallon sump/fuge (I assume that my rock and equipment has displaced about 60-70 gallons. I dose twice a week, never within 24 hours of any calcium supplement like Reef Complete. Dosing calcium and Reef Builder too close together will cause precipitation problems. This dosing pattern for me (I also dose Reef Complete) keeps dkH between 10-12 and calcium between 400-450.

[JeremyGlen]

I used the little calculator on the manufacturer's website and it said to raise my alk .8 like your saying would be almost a full teaspoon in my little 22g of water volume.

[matt]

Yeah, something doesn't sound right. Sharkboy, I would suggest you do some daily testing, best to do it in the morning right before the lights come on. Test Ca, alk, and ph with salifert kits (ph probe if you have one) because this should give you consistent results. Are you still dripping KW? If not watch your ph.

This site has a calculator:
http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chemcalc.html

It says you need 9 tsp of reef builder to bring your alk from 1.9 to 2.6 in 250 gallons of water. So, clearly, something's not right with your tests, which would also explain the variance in your calcium levels.

[GaryP]

So your talling me that your alk went up that much with one teaspoon of reef builder, and I have to add 6 grams, which is almost one teaspoon, of reef success calk to my 25g everyday? Something doesn't seem right.
OK, here we go again. He's adding buffer to raise alkalinity, you're not. Success Calk is just finely ground sand which supposed dissolves to form carbonate and calcium. I'm not going to go into another rant about Hocus Pocus chemistry here, but one product has a direct path and the other requires some imaginative logic. Let's just say the product that you are using isn't 100% effective in raising alkalinity and leave it at that.

[GaryP]

My tank is a 215 with another 80gal in sump and fuge.
Remember that may be your tank size, but that is not your water volume. You have to subtract for LR, sand, and equipment, and you sump/fuge is not 100% full. Without looking at your tank, I would guess your actual water volume is probably in the 200 gal. range.

[JeremyGlen]

Gary,

The success calk has raised my alk according to the titration I've been doing. I know what it does. The success Calk "helps" maintain both alk and a little calcium, but they do recommend using a calcium suplement along with it. I have seen anywhere from 1/2" to almost 3" of growth in my tank since I started using it like 2 months ago.

I also wrote a couple of posts later that I checked the manufacturer's site and the amount he put it his tank would only raise it thast much in the water volume of my tank, 22g.

[matt]

Jeremy, it's possible that the success calk is throwing off your alkalinity test. The way those tests work is there's a ph indicating dye and an acid. You put in the dye, then start titrating acid until the ph drops enough to change the color. If you have finely ground calcium carbonate, the acid will have to dissolve the calcium carbonate dust before it can really drop the ph, or something along those lines takes place. At least that's what Habib says, and if you ever tried to test the alk of water that's cloudy with SD dust, you'd come with a very high alk result; much higher than would actually be indicated by the presence of carbonate ions in the water. Alkalinity is really nothing more than the water's resistance to ph drops, not an actual PPM of carbonate ions. If your corals are doing well, great. But you might actually have significantly lower concentration of carbonate ions than your test shows.