New MH Bulb Quandry

[GaryP]

I'm getting ready to do my annual bulb replacement. The mark 1 Model 1 bulb replacement alarm went off a little early this year. For those of you that aren't familiar with that instrument, its also called slow SPS growth. Its actually a little early this year but I'm sure that is because my PFO ballast over drives bulbs and they don't last as long as with an electronic ballast.

Anyway, so I am out there pouring through reams of Sanjay's test data trying to figure out which Mogul MH bulb I want to go with. The problem is that, every which way I analyze the data, I come up with the conclusion that what I am using now is the best bulb out there. What bulb is that you ask? Just hold on, we'll get there.

The factors that I am basing this decision upon are: Stong 420 nm spike, PAR (PPFD), efficiency with my PFO ballast, and CCT (true color). The other bulbs that made my short list were the Sun Aquatics 10K, and the Ushio 10K. The Sun Aquatics had a pretty low CCT though (6561), so its really not in the running. That really only leaves me with my current bulb and the Ushio. Now if we take into consideration that the Ushio is about 50% more expensive you would think we would have a clear cut winner, wouldn't you? Well, the Ushio still has 12% lower PAR and it's CCT is only 8700, compared to my bulb's 9900.

So, why do I have any doubt here? Well, the answer is that I am currently using XM 10k's. After hearing about all the problems with them from some very notable reefers, including Mike Paletta, I'm wondering if Sanjay's data is really representative of the generally distributed production for the bulb? Could XM have sent him "tuned" bulbs to test to make sure they did well. I must admit that I was very happy with the performance with the bulbs I got last year. One did seem to be pretty yellow at first, but this may have only been temporary when it was burning in.

So, with all that said, what do you think? Before, you jump in and start telling me how wonderful the bulbs you are using are, remember who you are talking to. SHOW ME THE DATA! Unless you have a scientifically calibrated eyeball, I want to see data. Visual perception varies highly from one individual to another. I'm sure you have very good results with your bulbs, but what I am looking for is proof. I know, I know. I'm just a little AR when it comes to this sort of thing. But tell me what you think. I'll be sitting here in the peanut gallery waiting to see everyone's opinion.

[brewercm]

I know that I was impressed with the XM 10K bulbs that I had when I was using the SE bulbs (on elect ARO ballast). Then I went to the DE 10K XM with the same ballast and about puked. The differenct in color was dramatic and way too yelllow. As for me (no data other than this is what I like the look of), after running a 14K DE Coralvue next to a 14K Hamilton I liked the Hamilton better. It just looked brighter and even bluer than the Coralvue when run side by side. The only partially scientific data I have to the brightness was my RBT anenome that move over from the Coralvue side to the Hamilton. Thought this was odd so after a couple of weeks I switched bulbs from one side to the other and the little bugger moved again and stayed put from then on out. Well until my light on that side went out for a day and he started moving to the other side and took a ride through my closed loop system (OUCH).

[LoneStar]

Here is some sort of proof, a purple millipora. The photos are taken 6 months apart. XM 250w 10ks. Used only one lamp for 5 months, then added another a month ago. Everything that decides to stay alive grows like weeds :lol

Started off about the size of your thumbnail....
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a142/LoneStarSA/Saltwater%20MAAST/beforemilli.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a142/LoneStarSA/Saltwater%20MAAST/milliafter.jpg

[mkengr45]

Funny, I am using 250w Se 10k XM bulbs on 2 of my tanks and am very happy with how they look...... I remember a point when many people were extremely happy with the 10k XM. I wonder how they vary from bulb to bulb.....

Randy

[TexasTodd]

Gary, don't buy bulbs without coming over to my place! I REALLY mean this!

I'll fire my xm10kk, then my Reeflux 10kk, then drop the xm10kk off.

Growth has been every bit as good with the RF and there is simply no comparrison over the xm. I know there's data on the 420nm, but if you look at the killer bulbs out there, Radium 20kk on HQI, AquaConnect, Phoenix 14kk..........they all have that big 460nm ish spike and make corals color amazingly.

I'd suggest the RF10kk and add actinic if you want 420 in there. Half the days I don't even run my actinincs because it still looks so good even without them!

You do NEED an HQI ballast though with this bulb to get the "look". I think your's is, but can't remember for sure.

Todd

Todd

[Richard]

I am not sure which bulb I will use next. I've had decent results with many but I have not found a bulb yet that I really like, the corals really liked, and had longevity. The xm 10k's were nice but I found that some seemed to lose there spectrum fairly soon. That gets expensive. Same with many other bulbs also.

Although the spectral analysis doesn't look that great, I think the best results I have had have been with cv 14k's thus far taking into consideration those three factors (coral coloration, aesthetics, longevity). Ushio 10k's worked well and seems to hold there spectrum a long time but were too yellow for me to tolerate.

I am thinking of trying EVC 14k's or 10k's next time I replace my bulbs although I haven't really researched it much yet since I recently changed the bulbs. Currently I am using reeflux10k's. Coral coloration isn't great but I haven't done any maintenance on my tank in months so I can't blame the bulbs for that.

You can check sanjay's site for spetral plots of the evc bulbs. I wish someone would test longevity and consistency of bulb spectrums as well.

[TexasTodd]

Scuba Steveo is running the EVC 14kk's. His color IMO looked great under these.

They looked "too blue" in my tank, but don't in Steve's......why...who knows!

T

[Richard]

Yeah the aesthetics part is really subjective. I like a blueish look but not 20k blue. All of the 10k's are either too white or too yellow for my personal taste.

[Richard]

Has anyone tried any of the megachrome bulbs?

[GaryP]

I checked the data on the Reeflux and the EVC on Sanjay's site. Actually I had to go find his articles because the navigation bar on the website is messed up.

So, I guess you are both saying to ignore what the data says and go with experience?

I'm running 2 X 160 watt VHO actinic now, but I'm really wanting some help in the 420 nm spectrum from the MH. That's what I am getting from the XM (at least according to Sanjay's data). When I get the new tank running I plan to load as much actinic as I can fit under the hood so its not as much of an issue.

Todd, I'll take you up on your offer. However, I'm wondering if what you are saying has more to do with the appearance of the tank, rather then what spectrum is being fed to your corals. On the other hand, my lights are propably pretty deficient in the 450-460 spectrum and that could account for some of the differences in the corals, like the robusta, you got from me.

[Richard]

The EVC 10k looks like it has good par and spikes in the range your looking for. TRY THEM AND LET ME KNOW LOL

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2005/feature.html

[GaryP]

The EVC 10K 400 watt has lower PAR then the XM 10K 250 watt (173 vs. 182 PPFD). It does have a nice spectrum though.

[GaryP]

The Hamilton 10K in that link looked good too. I wish there was some 250 watt data on these.

[Richard]

The EVC 10K 400 watt has lower PAR then the XM 10K 250 watt (173 vs. 182 PPFD).


PAR SCHMAR! Just try them and let me know how they work ;)

[GaryP]

Anyone ever hear of a Kstar 11K bulb? I'd like to see more data on them.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/4/review_album/photoalbum_photo_view?b_start:int=5

[blueboy]

i'm running DE's so this may not apply, but for what it's worth i have not been impressed with their longevity. and i'm not talking about spectrum loss. i had one burn out in about 4-5 months, then another burn out within 3 months. i think that's unacceptable, and will be going to a new brand.

[JimD]

Has anyone tried any of the megachrome bulbs?

I have.

[gjuarez]

Gary, I am with Todd. I would rely on vho actinic for 420nm. Reeflux bulbs peak at around 470nm, but it seems like lately people are having issues with them. I am very satisfied with mine, its perhaps the best bulb i have ever used. THe par rating on them is good. I also understand what you meant on the colors of the coral. Sometimes different spectrums reflect nice off the corals, but that is necesarilly the true color of the coral. WIth true actinic (420), you do get the true color of the coral and not just reflected light. Just repeating what you said but in different words. Reeflux once again are the best bulbs I have used, but like mentioned before it seems like they are having quality issues. I just thought I would throw that in before I made a recommendation.

Oh, and based on what you are looking for, if you do add the extra actinic supplimentation then I vote for XMs. They are very intense and with all that actinic you really wouldnt have to worry about the coloration on the corals.

[Richard]

Has anyone tried any of the megachrome bulbs?

I have.

OK good. That's all I wanted to know :roll .

[gjuarez]

LMAO, that was priceless Richard. I have seen these bulbs though, they are very nice, I have seen the 13.5k, but they are very pricey compared to other bulbs.

[TexasTodd]

Gary, toward the end of next week, or NEXT weekend will work. Family in now until the 5th.

Todd

[alton]

One thing that hasn't been talked about but when a company sets up to make a run of let's say 10K lamps the first lamps made will be closer to 11K and depending how long they continue on this run before they retool, the last could be around 9K or lower. If you are ever in a gym look up at the lights you will notice this because in the commercial trade no one cares to keep and sell lamps in the order they where made. So you end up with some lamps that appear to be blue, some white and some yellow. That's why I think some thought reef flux lamps where too blue at first and others thought they where great? As far as a comparison why are one manufactures 10K white while others are more yellow? Don't they have the same meter to check? Ushio for what ever reason has dropped the 250w market they carry multiple otions for the 175 and the 400w, but in the 250w only one 10K is made for a magnetic ballast? What is strange is in the 175w the Ushio 10K and 14K has the same PAR rating?

http://www.ushio.com/Files/Aqualite.pdf

[JimD]

Has anyone tried any of the megachrome bulbs?

I have.

OK good. That's all I wanted to know :roll .

Cool. glad I was able to help you out.... :lol :wacko

[LoneStar]

Has anyone tried any of the megachrome bulbs?

I have.

OK good. That's all I wanted to know :roll .

Cool. glad I was able to help you out.... :lol :wacko

Jim....you are invaluable to this site! :roll :wacko

[TexasTodd]

No, I do use the reports Gary.

Actually, they are what FIRST got me looking at this bulb before any of the big threads started on RC etc.

Look at the specs with an HQI ballast.................they are ALMOST adentical to the AquaConnect bulbs which people LOVE, are basically impossible to find, and cost like $150 each. ;)

TT

[JeremyGlen]

I've been thinking about getting a new bulb for my tank. I'm getting great growth out of my corals(some I can visually tell they have grown 1/8" in no more than a day or two) but the color is less than desired. I want a lot more blue in the tank and I have no room for any larger actinics. It sure is hard to fit a DE and actinics of any size in a hood that is only 24x14.

I have actually been thinking about the XM 15Ks. I read over the reports from Sanjay on them and they seem to be pretty good. I just want my corals to color up a little better.

[matt]

What wattage and ballast are you using?

[matt]

I have actually been thinking about the XM 15Ks. I read over the reports from Sanjay on them and they seem to be pretty good. I just want my corals to color up a little better.

Oh man those XM 15Ks were a huge bust; everyone hates them on reefcentral. But you're talking about XDE, right? Not sure about those. I'm using the phoenix 14K which seems to be the best combination of PAR and color. PAR is pretty similar to the ushio 10K and they're really blue to the eye, much more so than the geisemann 14.5K.

Since Gary doesn't want to tell me what ballast he's using, here's my take on the XM vs ushio 10K. The XM got real popular because it tested so high in PAR and had a better (less yellow) color than the hamilton/ushio bulbs that so many people were using, but that's with 400W. There's a big difference in CCT between the XM250s and the 400s even though they're sold as the same bulb, different wattage. When I switched from ushios to XM 250W 10ks, on an M58 ballast which I bet is what he has, my tank looked substantially yellower; more like iwaskis. It was also inconsistant between the 2 XM bulbs as well. If I were choosing between the 2, I'd definitely go with ushios in 250W and XM in 400.

[GaryP]

I'm sorry Matt. I must have missed your post. I believe my ballast is an M80. Richard can probably tell us for sure. I got it from him.

I have definitely noticed the inconsistency of XM 10Ks. I had great growth on one side of my tank, and almost none on the other. I was comparing the relative data of the 250 watt bulbs, not the 400 watt.

[TexasTodd]

Hmmm, M80....is that standard Magnetic, or, HQI Magnetic? I think Standard and HQI is M81..yes?

TT

[GaryP]

M80 is the HQI. Let me go check. BRB....

[matt]

On Sanjay's site the XM 250 10K has both a higher CCT and PAR than the ushio on both M58 and M80; it really kicks butt on the M80. Maybe they changed the 250 bulb to match the performance of the 400 since I ran mine, but my experience was that the XM definitely appeared more yellow than the ushio. If the data on Sanjay's site is really how the current bulbs perform, I'd have to say that the XM with a luminarc reflector running on the M80 would be hard to beat; almost twice the listed PAR of the phoenix DE bulb I'm running on the same ballast, and not that much lower than the 400W.

[TexasTodd]

"BRB...."

:)

TT

[GaryP]

I thought it was on the serial plate of the ballast. I checked and it wasn't there. They didn't even write the model number on it. It doesn't even say on their website. M80 is the pulse start. So, I'm assuming that mine is probably a M58.

[TexasTodd]

Better find out. :)

Todd

[matt]

Unless you specifically requested a HQI ballast, it's unlikely you got one, and they are significantly more expensive. If yours is a PFO there's a sticker on the top with the a list of ballasts, one of which would be checked off. If it says 250MH it's the M58. BTW, my PFO HQI pulls a maximum of 5.5 amps, a huge draw for a 250W ballast. I'm sure that's only on start up, but you do pay for the HQI buying it and running it.

You really ought to clear up your ballast situation before choosing a bulb. Also, I've heard a 250W mogule bulb will not last a year on a HQI ballast, but I don't really know about that one. Another area that can have real impact on your bulb choice would be reflectors; the luminarc performs so much better than anything else that it's worth getting no matter what, but especially if you like the color of a bulb that has a little less PAR than you want, because it can really get the most out of a bulb. Likewise, a not-so-good reflector like the spider could negate any improvement you might get from switching for the M58 to M80 ballast.

If I had a big tank, I would absolutely be using luminarc reflectors and mogule bulbs; for my little corner tank a DE mini pendant works great.