LFS gripe (salinity)

[rocketeer]

Does anybody else out there have this problem?

You buy sensitive inverts like snails from a LFS and take them home. You measure the salinity of the water they gave them to you in and find it's like 1.021 or 1.022! You take forever to acclimate them because they are so far off. During the process some die, either because they were shocked being placed into the LFS's system or because you tried to move too fast. So you know the water is starting to get toxic. You would like to acclimate faster but you're affraid of the stress you will inflict if you do. So you continue to go slow. Take out the ones you know are dead. Over the next week or two, the rest die. Quick changes in salinity can damage organs and it may take weeks for the animal to die.

I've had this from three local fish stores. Some not as severe as this, thank god. I know that constantly bagging fish will cause salinity to drop. I've heard the excuse that lower salinity is bad for parasites. So is stressing fish! Please don't bag snails into water from a separate system or holding tank! I think I lost a huge purchase of large Mexican Turbos this way.

Do any LFSs top off with salty water? I know it's a balancing act. From now on I'm not buying anything without measuring salinity at the LFS.

Is anybody with me?

Jack

[gjuarez]

Hmm.. I am not sure. I have never had that problem even though one of my lfs runs their salinity at 1.019. I have also heard that having lower salinity levels also decrease the chances of parasites. The toxicity of the water doesnt concern me, IMO it takes a little longer than that for water to become toxic. Usually when it comes to snails, I just temperature acclimate them and drop them in, I have never had any ill effects. In my opinion, a big change in ph affects them more than the salinity. What do you run your salinity at?

[rocketeer]

I've been using 1.0245 or so.

Jack

[GaryP]

When was the last time you saw most LFS acclimate anything? I know some do but, not all. We had a big discussion about this a while back. As I recall Richard had said the LFS have a bit of a issue here. Is it better to do a long acclimation, or better to get the critters out of the bag that have been in for as much as 24 hrs. in water that has a build up of ammonia and is oxygen depleted? On top of that is the issue of shipping stress from being in the bag. This may apply more to fish then inverts, but the stresses add up anyway. Maybe we can get Richard to jump back into this one.

[SGTDirk]

okay now i have to ask what is the ideal specific gravity? i have been reading in the books i have that is anywhere from 1.020 to 1.027. i am using the Coralife Deep Six Hydrometer and it has a little bar starting at 1.020 and stoping at 1.023. so i keep my water at about 1.021 to 1.022. so should i pour a bucket of salt in my tank or is it okay????? :blink

[Richard]

We generally do not drip acclimate. We have found losses to be lowest when we float the bags for temp adjustment. For fish this is followed by a 5-10 min fw bath. There are some exceptions such as shrimp which do best with some acclimation. Also sometimes I will decide to acclimate a fish for whatever reason. That's just an individual judgement call based on the size of the fish, how it is packed, how it is acting in the bag, etc. This is what we have found is the best for us from the suppliers that we use. They generally do an excellent job of packing the animals and even after 26-36 hrs in the bag the ph has not dropped much at all. Other suppliers may be different and transhipped animals always need a lengthy accilimation due to the very low ph. IMO/IME salinity changes are not a big stressor on livestock so temp and ph are all I concern myself with.

For livestock that I bring home for myself I rarely spend any length of time acclimating usually just temp adjustment and have not had any problems. Of course I usually bring stuff home from my own store but occasionally I feel like "shopping" and will go to other stores and I have not had any problems with anything that I have purchased from other stores.

It really sounds like you might have some problem that is causes your losses since you say this has happened from three different stores. You could have a chemistry issue that is affecting the snails. Also if you have a toxic algae such as bryopsis or even dinoflagellates then this could cause you to keep losing snails. Although since you say you are taking out the dead ones while you are acclimating them I would suspect some chemistry issue first.

I would agree with you that livestock should be bagged with water from the tank it is in though.

SGTDirk - I normally keep my tanks at 1.024

[rocketeer]

Dinos and bryopsis... yeah maybe. SG 1.0245, PH ~8.1, Ca 370, Alk 2.25 Meq/L, Temp 80-82. Ca and Alk are low but I think are in reason. Lots of corals and anemones thrive in my 120 gal system. 40 gal sump, 20 gal above tank fuge. I drip KW and Marine buffer. I'll worry more about calcium later. For now I consider buffering to be more urgent for PH reasons.

I'll accept advice concerning any of the above.

I saw an article about taking snails out of water for a while, then ploping them into the tank instead of acclimating. Any merit in this?

Jack

[GaryP]

I've always considered snails to be like a "canary in the coal mine." I seem to recall reading somewhere that they are more sensitive to nitrate, nitrite and ammonia then most other inverts.

[greatwit]

For acclimating my inverts I usually trade out 1/2 of their bagged water with my tank water, wait 15 minutes and repeat once more before introducing them to the tank.

Snails frequently come out of the water on their own, so I can see why it could possibly be useful to remove them first. You could also let them attach above the water line and go in the water when they're ready.

[SaltyJim]

for snails, I usually just float a small piece of styrofoam or plastic in the tank next to the glass, and set the snails on top. They make their way into the tank at their pace. I haven't done this many times, butthe 2 times I have with 10 and 15 snails, I lost none.

[publicshortage]

I just wanted to chime in (Just joined, first post) I am the "Sunday guy" at the LFS in CC and I know we actually keep our salinity a little high(meaning good for corals, misc. ). My only comment is that if someone wants their sg a little lower or higher they should ask. Not a single person has asked me what the salinity of our H2O is. Today the sg was 1.024. Anyway, all that I am saying it that everyone has a different opinion of what the best sg is and the LFS can't have 15 storage tanks holding various degrees of salted h2o.

My LFS Emp. gripe of the day. "what is up with people who don't understand the difference between salt and fresh water?, (and they live on the coast)"

[aggie4231]

i used to help out at one of the better lfs in Houston(Village Tropical Fish). Corals, snails, and hermits were temp acclimated while the fish were unbagged. fish were first un boxed. we used several rubbermaids, buckets, etc.. and IV style drip lines. we used very little water from the shipping bags in the process. Fish going into the fish only system wer drip acclimated to SG~1.018. Shrimp, starfish, and fish going to reef system were acclimated to SG of 1.023-1.025. Depending on what was recieved, who was/wasnt there that night, the acclimation would last from 1-3 hours including the fish being placed into tanks. Most of our dead loss occured in the acclimation buckets.

[jasonC]

well there will be some debate about this, but i will tell you that 1.018-1.021 are perfect for fish, also 1.022-1.025 are perfect for inverts and corals. now u must also remeber that the salinity will flux depending on the temp. also i perfer to drip acclimate most everything except corals. never lost a single fish invert or coral. knock on wood. also with also with ph u also must remeber that in extereme ph levels it will alter how your fish are affectted by amonia and nitrates. i have worked at a few sw fish shops in town and i can tell you that the ones i have seen temp and droped have more turn overs than others. now i will not name any names but thats from personal experince. well i hope this helps

[matt]

well there will be some debate about this, but i will tell you that 1.018-1.021 are perfect for fish, also 1.022-1.025 are perfect for inverts and corals. now u must also remeber that the salinity will flux depending on the temp.

Actually, salinity stays the same regardless of temp, but specific gravity, the way we usually measure it, changes. If you have 35ppt at 60F and raise the temp to 80, the specific gravity would really drop, but you'd still have 35ppt salinity. I agree that fish, especially in transit, seem to be more disease resistent at lower salinity, and that why (I assume) most stores keep their tanks at such a low salinity. I have definitely lost a few shrimp and snails due to not acclimating them to my tank at 1.026 at 80 when they've come from lower salinity, so now I acclimate really slowly in a bucket.