Are these parmeter ok + wich fish?

[Louie3]

55g Tank 1y and 5mon.
Amonia- 0
pH- 7.8
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate-20

Ihave 2 HOB Bio-wheel filters,
RedSea BerlinAirlift skimmer
1-2 inch sand bed
10lbs of live rock
-NEW- 2 days old
Refugium 10g
section1, 4 inches of sand bed
section2, 8 inches of sand
section3, 2 inches of sand
-FISH-&-INVERTS-
1, convict Tang
1, 4stripe damsel
20 mexican turbos
1, aroow crab

[Louie3]

bump

[Louie3]

here goes another

[betiuminside]

I will consider myself a newby since there's a LOT to learn still but my guess is that your PH is kinda low, I will try to bump it to 8.2.

Then Nitrate 20 is not that bad with FOWLR, but with corals you may have some problems.

And I think you may consider on buying more LR, I don't think 10lbs is enough. I have learned that the best filtration system is good LR.

Reef on!

[Louie3]

im in a great need in live rock but petland sells at 6.99 apound! im waiting to see if anyone with LR has a trip down here, or some one from the rgv has any extra.
i have a small amount of corals
250 poypls and xenias
i tested again and nitrate is at 0 < some how

[cbianco]

Louie your pH is a bit low, try and bump it up a bit. Everything else looks good.

When are we going to see some pictures of your tank?

Christopher

[Louie3]

once i get the cash to buy a camera

[Marlin]

Louie:
You need to get the PH up. I don't know why your nitrate is varying so much from one reading to another. I don't know how much time between readings, but make sure you are doing the test correctly and consistantly each time. I don't think it's possible for your nitrate to vary that much in a short time.
With corals in your tank you need to start checking Calcium, Alk and magnesium. You can increase magnesium simply and inexpensively by buying epsom salt and adding a small amount on a regular basis. You can buy products that will stabilize your Ca and Alk at the pet shop. But remember don't add anything you can't test for. If you do not have test kits for Alk, Ca and Mg, get them. The fact that your PH is low is possibly an indicator that Alk and Ca or off also.
I had a big problem a while back with high Alk and low Ca. I lost some nice corals until people from MAAST helped me figure it out and get it in balance.
When you go from fish only to coral, you need to take a lot more care with your system and it's parameters. Always go slowly!!
PH should be around 8.4
Ca - 400 to450
Mg -1350 to 1450
Alk -9 to 10 Dkh

[Louie3]

its weird I added some more " PRIME" its used for lowering Nitrites,Nitrates,Amonia, so after that all my readings come out to normal, what products for the CA,MG,ALK to test for do you reccomend?
all my testing is done exactly how the booklet says fill up 10ml water in each test tube and then i add how many drops wach bottle demands

[Marlin]

Are you adding the Prime in between readings?
For Mg use epson salt, very inexpensive at Walmart or Walgreens.
For calcium there is a multitude of calcium additives, same with Alk. B-Ionic part 1 & 2 work great for calcium and Alk. They are a little pricey, and may be hard to find locally.
Read some of the threads on MAAST that deal with Ca and Alk. There are some inexpensive items available at HEB or on-line that you can use. There is a formula on one of the threads as to how much of each chemical to mix. Washing soda and baking soda are some of the ingredients. Dow flakes is another. and 20 mule team borax. GaryP is the expert. jason also is doing this and he can help you out.
I have a calcium reactor and just add epson salt and Turbo-Calcium. Works great for me, but there's many ways to get the end result you want.
I recommend Salifert test kits. They're a little more expensive but worth it in accuracy and consistancy IMO.

[gjuarez]

Rick, I edited my post a little after I saw your post. I have to disagree a little. Testing alk, cal and mag is very important, but it can be very tricky. Louie, right now you dont have to test that much at all for CAL and Mag, salifert is my test kit of choice but any basic test kit would be good since you dont have as much demand. The corals you have right now use up almost zero calcium since they are softies.

I think you should get a hold of your current parameters such as low ph and high nitrates. The alk might be a little low though, raising alk will help stabilize it. Doing regular water changes should stabilize alk and mag, dont mess around with those too much right now as it can throw your chemistry way off.

[Louie3]

[quote="Marlin"]Are you adding the Prime in between readings?
quote]

i added some before testing and it lowerd some levels
then after the first test i added some more and it lowerd all the other readings

[Louie3]

jerry and rick Thanks for the info ill keep you posted ill see if petco has that test kit and ill post the readings but that is really really good info that both of you offerd

[Marlin]

Jerry:
I'm going by what GaryP told me. He said soft corals also need calcium. I'm not the expert, but I listen to GaryP.

[Louie3]

hope this gets strainted out

[cbianco]

I saw that you said that you added Prime to your tank. If I am not mistaking Prime is a bacterial additive. How is the bacterial additive (Prime) going to affect the current bacterial population in your tank, i.e. is it going to be detrimental? I'm just curious :)

Christopher

[Louie3]

I've read every where on the bottle and no where it says that its bacterial, but it speeds up tank cycling and helps the biofilter so im sure some where it has bacteral substance maybe

[cbianco]

Ahh, I went out and read a bit. I found out that Prime is an "ammonia binder." Cool :)

Christopher

[gjuarez]

Softies do need a little bit of calcium, but its so little that it almost has no effect on the dmeand. There is no need to dose anything at the moment, they will do fine with alk and cal being provided by the synthethic salt. ALk and cal can be very sensitive, and they can really throw off a tank's chemistry if not being properly dosed and tested. Many tanks have gone down hill because of these parameters. FOr Louie, I think it would be best if he would just continue with his water changes but at the same time try to hold the nitrates in check. Magnesiums main purpose is to be able to keep higher levels of alk and cal and prevent them from precipitating. The levels that synthetic salt carries should be more than enough for what Louie is keeping.

[Marlin]

Thanks for jumping in jerry. I don't know how often Louie is doing water changes and I don't think he's checked Alk and Ca. It would be good that he at least knows where it's at.
I know all my corals, even softies did much better once I got the Alk & Ca in the right range.
Louie wants to get more corals and will need to get his system up to a point where it is stable and can support a larger biological load. He's seeing dramatic swings in some key parameters. He needs to add some more LR to have sufficient Anaerobic bacteria to keep things in balance. He's adding an ammonia binder right now to make up for lack of bacteria. It's OK for an emergency, but I don't think this is a good approach long term.
He's has his refugium going so that should help. He needs about 40 more lbs of LR to optimize his system. Hopefully he can find some at a good price. Even if he adds a little LR each month, he'll start to see the improvements as his system's capacity to process ammonia increases.

[Marlin]

Thanks for jumping in jerry. I don't know how often Louie is doing water changes and I don't think he's checked Alk and Ca. It would be good that he at least knows where it's at.
I know all my corals, even softies did much better once I got the Alk & Ca in the right range.
Louie wants to get more corals and will need to get his system up to a point where it is stable and can support a larger biological load. He's seeing dramatic swings in some key parameters. He needs to add some more LR to have sufficient Anaerobic bacteria to keep things in balance. He's adding an ammonia binder right now to make up for lack of bacteria. It's OK for an emergency, but I don't think this is a good approach long term.
He's has his refugium going so that should help. He needs about 40 more lbs of LR to optimize his system. Hopefully he can find some at a good price. Even if he adds a little LR each month, he'll start to see the improvements as his system's capacity to process ammonia increases.

[Louie3]

Thanks Rick and Jerry.
I change 8 gallons of water every 2 weeks. ( I'm using the watermill water ). And I aslo found my old dallas cowboys coin jar so im saving up to buy more LR. about the water Do i need to add salt to the new water im putting in the tank? I dont add any but my salt levels are in the right zone. I havent checked for ALK & Ca since about 3 weeks before school ended. Rick: about the prime before i added it my amonia was .25ppm thats why my CB died but it looked like my Tang and Damsel could handle those levels so just to be on the safe side i added "PRIME" this was the first time I ever used it. I do think finding LR at 6.99lbs is pertty expensive so if any one in the valley spots a lower price please pm me. Again thanks Jerry and Rick.

[cbianco]

Louie

When topping off due to evaporation, you use fresh water. The salt does not evaporate out of the tank, only the water. :)

Christopher

[Louie3]

I take out 8 gallons of water and replace it with brandnew 8 gallons of water, without putting salt

[Marlin]

We'll keep an eye out for any LR deals for you. I'm a little surprised that you are able to take 8 gals of salt water out every 2 weeks and replace it with fresh water and still maintain your salinity levels. Doen't sound right. I top off for loss by evaporation with fresh RO/DI water, but I mix up salt water for my water changes, otherwise the SG will drop with each water change.

[Louie3]

Sorry again i have a 5g with fresh water and a 3 with saltwater. thanks just keep me posted about the live rock deals

[Louie3]

cbianco:
This is what SeaChem sent me regarding your question.

Prime is a chemical water conditioner, not a biological product.
Prime is designed to remove chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, and
detoxify nitrite and nitrate. It has no affect on current bacterial
populations.
Best Regards,
Seachem Technical Support,rb
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
Below is the result of your feedback form.
It was submitted by HardRockerLouie@rgv.rr.com (Luis) on: Wednesday,
May, 31, 2006 at 23:05:11
comments: How is the bacterial additive (Prime) going to affect the
current bacterial population in your tank, i.e. is it going to be
detrimental? I'm just curious

[hammondegge]

louie, adding Prime will only treat your ammonia temporarily, and by removing the ammonia you will be removing the fuel source needed to balance your bacteria populations . i would say that you most urgently need to add more rock or an alternative bacteria builder like bioballs. it doesnt all have to be live rock. if you add 5-10lbs of good cured live rock and about 30-40lbs of dead porous base rock the dead rock will soon be seeded. be sure to clean the base rock thoroughly too if you go this route. gluck.
robert

[Louie3]

Hammondegge:
about the 30-40 dead rock. i can just put it in my show tank and it will cure?

[hammondegge]

"curing" is the removal of dead plants and animals off of live rock so that you dont add ammonia to your tank. your dead rock will eventually be seeded by the bacteria and other organisms that are in your live rock. its a cheap way to get started. you can also use manufactued rock that you can make yourself out of portland cement, shells and calcium sands. look on www.garf.org for a recipe if you are interested. you must soak this for many weeks in fresh water however (with many water changes) to get rid of the very high PH component before adding it to your tank.

[hammondegge]

basically what you want to do Louie is create a very large home for a very large population of bacteria and other fauna that will consume all of the bad stuff that you introduce to your tank when you feed and when your animals poop.

[Louie3]

well i guess i need to head to petland tomorrow. is this what i need to do?
1. wash rock
2.dry rock
3. place rock in show
4. turns puple after some time?

[Marlin]

Louie:
I'm sure any rock you get from the pet store is cured. They rarely have fresh live rock that needs curing. If you're not sure, ask them. I have had uncured rock shipped to me and you can see the difference. Uncured has a lot of junk attached to it. Some of it is still alive and a lot is dead. If you put this in your tank, it will fowl it and drive your ammonia thru the roof. Cured rock from the LFS can be placed directly into your display or refugium. Find rock that is as porous as possible. The lighter the rock, the more porous it is. These small/microscopic holes are where the anaerobic bacteria will take up home. The lighter the rock, the more you get for your money and the more capacity it has to support large colonies of bacteria

[Louie3]

so the big chunk at petland thats in water and a tan color is good? they've been wanting to sell it for a long time.

[hammondegge]

well i guess i need to head to petland tomorrow. is this what i need to do?
1. wash rock
2.dry rock
3. place rock in show
4. turns puple after some time?

yes for dead rock, dont wash your live rock, though you may quarantine it in salt water with a powerhead to was any dead matter off. if it comes from the LFS it probably will not need this. if you do add dead rock be sure to use a rock suited for the aquarium. limestone or calcerous rock as porous as possible. dont use anything with veins of metals or rust like stains. you can get your LFS to order you some base rock. i dont know what kind of rock the landscape supply companies have around there but if you can find rock that will foam when you pour vinegar on it, and its porous then thats the one you want.

[Louie3]

i didnt know that thanks! ill see if petland or petco and special order rock.

[hammondegge]

your welcome

[Louie3]

pet land is going to try and order 50lbs of live rock, what do you guys think of a Damsel only tank? Right now I have a four stripe damsel and a convict tang and they seem really nice to each other, or any other reccomendations you guys think

[Louie3]

oh yeah guys just because petland orders new rock doesnt mean i have to buy from them still looking for deals.
new updates
pH 8.2
Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
getting alot of growth from my green button poypls from about 20 now 30

[Louie3]

bump

[Louie3]

bump

[GaryP]

Jerry:
I'm going by what GaryP told me. He said soft corals also need calcium. I'm not the expert, but I listen to GaryP.
Yes, most softies require calcium but it is not as important with them as it is with SPS. They don't use as much. I would still shoot for at least 375 ppm on a softy tank. Soft corals don't make a hard skeltons, but they do create calcium carbonate spicules in their tissues. That is what makes leather corals "leathery."

Remember that if they are using alkalinity as well as calcium. Alkalinity can be just as important, or more important on a tank like this. That could be a big reason for you low pH. Not only do corals use alkalinity to grow, it also regulates pH. In addition, alkalinity is depleted faster then calcium because bacterial by-products that result from waste processing will deplete alkalinity.

[GaryP]

oh yeah guys just because petland orders new rock doesnt mean i have to buy from them still looking for deals.
new updates
Here's a suggestion. Why don't you make your own live rock? Try googling "aragocrete."

[Louie3]

I'm going to try it out.at the LFS i can get 30lbs bags for $30 and crushed coral for 15lbs for $30. and unknown for the epoxy or concrete. god deal or bad deal? I end having to wait about2-3 months for it to cure, and my allouance is $30 every week. i can save $240 for fiji? should I do it or not?

[gjuarez]

Gary, thanks for chiming in. IF you take a look at my earlier posts you will see that I agree 100%. A softie tank has little calcium demand, but a tank with low alkalinity can be dangerous. A high and stable alkalinity level maintains Ph, and also keeps it from fluctuating too much. So I will say that alkalinity is more important in a tank like this. Both of these parameters can be taken care of with regular water changes, with no dosing at all depending on which salt is used. Cal and alk dont get depleted as much, unless there is some ludicrous coraline algae growth going on. Louie, visit Garf.org for more info on how to make your own live rock.

[GaryP]

If you are using a high calcium salt for water changes, that should be sufficient. I disagree slightly about only using water changes to maintain alkalinity though. Its depleted by bacterial action and will probably need to be supplemented. I think there is a good chance that is the the problem with Louie's pH issue.

Also, please keep in mind that pH varies with the time of day. I know he has a refugium and this should help negate that to some degree it depends on how he has the lights set up. They should either be put on a reverse cycle or run 24/7 to help minimize CO2 levels at night that can cause pH swings.

[gjuarez]

Yeah i agree with that as well. I mentioned cal and mag could be replenished with regular water changes. What do you recommend Louie to use to doze for alk? most of my experience is with B-Ionic.

[gjuarez]

The alk might be a little low though, raising alk will help stabilize it. Doing regular water changes should stabilize alk and mag, dont mess around with those too much right now as it can throw your chemistry way off.

Ok, I see what you mean Gary. I meant cal and mag.

[GaryP]

Kent Super DKH should work good for him. Its cheaper then the liquid products. Most of the solid alkalinity supplements are pretty much the same thing and any would be fine.

More importantly though, I think he needs to start testing for Alkalinity.

[gjuarez]

I think so too, mainly because of the ph issues. Gary, how much alkalinity would you say softies use? High, medium, or low demand?

Louie, using instant ocean salt might be good for your tank.

[GaryP]

A lot less then the bacteria use up. Calcification uses 2 parts of alkalinity for every part of calcium. Therefore, is you drop 10 ppm of calcium the alkalinity should drop 20 ppm (from calcification alone). 20 ppm of alkalinity is about 1.1 DkH. The balance is probably lost due to algal and bacterial processes.

[Louie3]

WoW this is alot of info to soak up :wacko

thanks you guys for going out on this im going to brownsville today so ill look up some products.

[JeremyGlen]

If your allowance is $30 a week, I would save for 5 or 6 weeks and get an order of 50lbs off of eBay. I've always bought my rock on there and have been quite happy. If you look around and wait for the right auction, you can get a 50lb box shipped to you for around $150-$175. More times than not, it comes in fresh enough that it would only require a few days in a plastic trash can to "cure" enough to put in your tank. The best thing to do is get a good tough plastic brush and scrub the rock and rinse it before you put it in the trash can, this will shorten the time you have to cure it.