Pump Fires

[Instar]

2 fires in 2 weeks: 1 Rio 1700 and 1 CAP 2100. They caught fire under water. Tha CAP blew up, the Rio burned thru in 3 places and electrocuted the fish. I knew the Rios were reported bad but figured it might be because of abuse but this one was in continuous use for about 5 years without issue and was working fine till the fire. Yesterday it killed 2 CBB's, a mated pair of six lined wrasses that were spawning, 1 and maybe 2 medium blue hippos (can't tell right now). The sea urchin liked his CBB meal and seems unaffected as do all the inverts even though the water stinks. Gobies survived the shock and the pair of GSM's are still alive. All this is just for information for those that didn't know or had doubts like I did about the Rios.

As a result of the seals not holding up in salt water for Rios and Caps, I will be replacing all pumps, and motorized equipment (and maybe lights) on a continous and rotating basis and will never have a CAP or Rio in the inventory again especially since there is better equipment now. I am going to assume all pumps, fans, light ballasts are the same quality for the sake of safety. (Also had a whole collection of ballasts blow over time as have other members. Several custom sea life and coral life ballasts blew that were reasonably new, so they are replacement equipment to me now.) I am also going to be replacing all Maxi-Jets for safety sake and will post them in the used sale forum when I have them replaced.

Just a recommendation for those running Rios and Caps: replace them before they get very old as the seals obviously don't hold up in salt water for more than 5 years.

As a matter of interest, has anyone ever had pumps that are running externally wear through the casing into the motor where the impellor rotates?

[LoneStar]

That really sucks Larry. I've had my own misfortunes with the smaller Rios in the past. Bought two of the smaller ones (can't recall the part number) and BOTH fried within ONE WEEK. I have a RIO 2100 now, but only run it for an hour a week for mixing saltwater ;)

[Instar]

I'm glad I figured it out and unplugged them first before sticking my arm into the tank for maint. The electric coil was open into the water. That would have been a shock!

[Bill S]

Larry,

I had a Rio go on me about 1 year and a half ago. Fortunately, it was in a 5 gallon bucket of water. I called Rio about it, they asked for it back to do some research on, and they replaced it. The replacement didn't last a WEEK!

[LoneStar]

Maybe thats their gaurantee. 1 week or 7 days, which ever comes first!!!

[Instar]

Gezz a week. I have a system thats pushing it then cause its got an old Rio on it for the sump pump. Just not a salt pump it sounds like either that or not made for 60 cycle power? I guess that means replacements need to be now.

[TroyPham]

Larry this was again?? I know u pmed me last month or so about one pump... so how many of the 9 lives do you have left?? haha.

i had one go bad on me a few years back that was running my skimmer. never again will i buy one.

[Marlin]

All the more reason to use GFCI's on everything. They can save your life!!!

[GaryP]

The only problem with GFCI's is that you have a tendency to rely on them and they do fail. I had one fail on me a while back. When they do fail, they usually fail on, not off. So, if you do have GFCI's don't get a false sense of security from them.

[Marlin]

I test mine periodically to make sure they are functioning. This doesn't mean that the next time they are called upon to do their duty that they will work, but at least I have a higher level of confidence that nothing in the circuitry has completely stopped working.

[GaryP]

One of our members, who is an electrician, showed me that the common GFCIs used for residentail applications have circuit boards that are on paper, instead of a ceramic board.

[Marlin]

That doesn't surprise me. I bought the ones from Marine Depot. I've never taken them apart to see what kind of construction/materials are used. The units sold for residential use are very inexpensive. I hope the ones I have (about $25 each) are designed for more rugged use, but you never know.
I did have a tank overflow a month or so ago and salt water got into one of the outlet strips that is connected to the GFCI and it kicked out immediately. No water got into or near the GFCI.

[z28pwr]

I had that happen to me with a Rio 2100 it smoked up the whole house, luckily I went home for lunch and was able to unplug it before things got worse.

[blueboy]

me too! i guess that rules out coincidence for the rio's, huh..?

[alton]

Hubbell Part #GF8200IA is the product with the glass back board. Wholesale they run about $28 and up. They also make GFCI testors so you can check your receptacles. And yes most do fail on, but that is changing slowly. The lightning we received the last couple of weeks didn't have anything to do with your problems did they Larry? Sometimes when we get a lot of lightning, things quit working or wear out faster than normal. Ballast go bad, lamps burn out, and other things go bad.

[Instar]

I don't use the GFCI's on outlets because I have them cut off during a storm and they don't reset. Killed fish that way too from power out that shouldn't have been. If you know of a GFCI that won't cut off during a storm, please let me know. It would take wiring and relay engineering with large UPS to do it otherwise.

[falcondob]

Rios = "no way", got that. But, what are the suggested replacements. MaxiJets, Mags? Inquiring and newbie minds want to know.....

[alton]

Make sure it is a three wire or has a grounded plug on the power head.

[matt]

Hi ya Larry! Sorry to hear about your fish fry....when is someone going to sue TAAM? I got shocked really bad about a month after setting up my very first tank, I used a rio for a return pump. Big mistake.

[LoneStar]

I can see it in the next CSI episode. Man is dies in bathtub. Only visible evidence is a Rio pump in the tub and a burning smell....shocking... :blink

[Instar]

With people trying to do things the cheap way its a wonder someone hasn't tried to make their own whirlpool tub and done that.

[LoneStar]

haha

well I'm off to the tub with 6 maxijet 1200's and a red sea wavemaker!!

[jroescher]

There was a good post on RC about GFCI circuits and how they don't protect you from being shocked like you expect. Seems like it had something to do with how a grounding rod was installed and the reaction time of the breaker.

I can't search RC or I would hunt it back up and post the link.

[beareef19]

I had a RIO on my return I kept getting an intermitent shock when I would put my hands in the sump finally relized what is was from and replaced it . No more RIO,s for me.

Barry

[GaryP]

With people trying to do things the cheap way its a wonder someone hasn't tried to make their own whirlpool tub and done that.
I was over at Jason's (formerly at Alamo) new shop the other day. He is going to be opening in a few weeks. He is actually using a Jacuzzi pump as a main return pump in one set of tanks.

I'll post something in the retail forum about the shop.

[Instar]

The sad thing is that I had the CBB's for 5 years and in with the same pump. It was the sump pump but I replaced it with a larger pump and decided to use it for rotary current duplication then.

Falcondob, I've had maxi-jets go out after a couple years but the just seem to swell a little and stop, no electric current and no fires. They are good little work horses and move a lot of water for their size. I really like the Mag drive pumps and the Tunze's. I've been using a pond pump called ViaAqua but they may eventually go the same way? It uses less power, for what its worth, and I like that since I am running so many pumps. I have no idea if they are really any good though, only had one large one for long term and sevearl small ones. I have a lot of the larger ones now but the jury is still out. I've heard pros and cons on ViaAqua.

[GaryP]

Larry, the big ViaAqua has been running like a champ ever since I got it from you. Until a few weeks ago it was the only flow I had in my 75 gal. I love it. I wouldn't mind getting a couple more to use on my skimmers.

[tgray]

Really sorry for the loss Larry, especially the CBB's
Tim

[GaryP]

Larry was the only person I have ever seen that was able to keep a "school" of CBB. He put a lot of work into gradually socializing them in order to accomplish this. Most folks, including me, have a hard time keeping a single CBB alive. Keeping an entire school alive is outstanding. I believe he got the CBB as babies and raised them.

[Richard]

Sorry to hear that Larry.

You got me stumped...what's a CAP 2100? Who makes them?

[mathias]

Im guessing rio

[Instar]

Richard: CAP = Coolie Aqua Pump. Whoever that is. Looks similar to a Rio, purchased locally at a fish store before the days of MAAST. CAP 1800/3000 submersible only. Warranty 360 days from date of purchase. Box logo says CAP on the outside. They have a compression hose clamp type fitting that fits a soft thin walled tubing for the return or directional line. I tossed the pump because it stunk up the place but still have the insert. It's definitely a hollow casing like the Rio.

[LoneStar]

Pro Clear protein skimmers use them as their pumps too.

[Ram_Puppy]

Larry, sorry to hear about your misfortune. i am glad you were not added to the casualty list. :(

[don-n-sa]

Darn Larry sorry to hear about the mishap, I stumbled across a good read:

Here is a quote from reefkeeping magazine ( Greg Hiller ):

I have a closet full of failed submersible pumps from a wide variety of manufacturers. While I'm not saying there are no reliable submersible pumps, I will state that as a class of pumps, they are much less reliable than external pumps. The problem with submersible pumps seems to be that very few of the designs are engineered to properly dissipate heat. In a saltwater environment, a slow precipitation of calcium carbonate occurs in the locally warmer water in the vicinity of the impellor, eventually causing the impellor to seize up. This is most likely to occur just after a power outage, when the pump simply will not restart. Some commonly available, inexpensive and very popular submersible pumps have an even more serious design flaw. When these pumps seize up they continue to draw power and generate heat, and when their plastic case cracks or melts, they can eventually release toxic chemicals into the water, which can cause a near 100% wipeout of the tank. Some hobbyists delude themselves into believing that if they clean their pumps on a regular basis by dissolving the build-up of calcium deposits with acid or vinegar, the problem will never occur. While it is of course true that regular cleaning helps, the pumps with this design flaw are, in reality, ticking time bombs in every tank where they are used

[don-n-sa]

and here is the full article

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-05/gh/index.php

[z28pwr]

FalconDob, to answer your question if you need to use an internal pump I would use a MAG Pump.

[Instar]

That article is at least part true. In this case the pumps were running full on as normal and the smoke was blasted out with the water return. Actually made it look like a different piece was the problem. Don't know what the reference is to toxic chemicals as there is a copper coil inside and electric connections, not much else. You should have seen the one hippo tang that survived, he shook and quivered for a couple days from the electric shock. Didn't run carbon or do water changes and didn't recover all the bodies, some were consumed by the critters. So, I have to know, what toxic chemcials would be inside a motor referred to in the article? Oil filled cases don't seem to be the norm these days. I am for redundant pumps, thats for sure and battery backups. Of the couple times I tried to run an external pump I couldn't get rid of the micro bubbles and cleaning is much more involved expecially when the seals leak. Pros and cons to everything I guess.

[GaryP]

The electric widings of a motor are usually coated in a phenolic resin. If phenols are released they can be very toxic. As a matter of fact, one of the measures of toxicity is called the "phenol test." Phenol was one of the first antiseptic agents and was called "carbolic acid." It was discovered by a guy named Lister. That's where we get Listerine from today. In addition, a lot of plastics such as nylon can release toxins like cyanide when they burn.

Smoke is a wicked mixture of all kinds of toxic organic products.

[Bill S]

I had a LONG discussion with the guy who owns/runs Rio a couple of months ago. He claims that they have intentionally burnt up pumps in reef tanks with no fatalities. Now, when I think about this... How did they do it? If they put it on a GFCI, it SHOULD kick as soon as the materials are exposed to water. That should then immediately halt the burning process? If it wasn't on a GFCI, shouldn't the current have killed the inhabitants?

[GaryP]

I talked to one of our members who is an electrical engineer. He does failure analyses. He said that he thought that Rio was get an unfair rap simply because there are so many more Rios out there then any other submersible pump and as result more were going to fail. He claimed that there was no greater statistical chance of a failure of a Rio then other pumps, it was just a matter of more being in service then other brands.

[hobogato]

maybe, but my argument is i have had just as many mag drive pumps as rios, and none of them have failed. the only rio i am still using is for SW mixup only and it sounds like a meatgrinder.

[falcondob]

<snip>... Don't know what the reference is to toxic chemicals as there is a copper coil inside and electric connections, not much else. <snip>

My understanding is the Rio and some other pumps were filled with oil for lubrication and cooling. When they crack open..well I think the mental picture is enough. This is what I HEARDand READ. I have not had a Rio, so I have not personally seen one fail.

[Bill S]

I can tell you that there is NO oil in a Rio. The resin, when it melts/fails, is a black gunky mess, though. They claim that it is NOT toxic to reef inhabitants.

[falcondob]

I can tell you that there is NO oil in a Rio. The resin, when it melts/fails, is a black gunky mess, though. They claim that it is NOT toxic to reef inhabitants.

Well, there you go... I shouldn't believe everything I read. I guess the result is probably the same. Thanks, bstreep!

[LoneStar]

I talked to one of our members who is an electrical engineer. He does failure analyses. He said that he thought that Rio was get an unfair rap simply because there are so many more Rios out there then any other submersible pump and as result more were going to fail. He claimed that there was no greater statistical chance of a failure of a Rio then other pumps, it was just a matter of more being in service then other brands.


I would think there is just as many Maxi-Jets out there too. Between all of the Marineland brands for powerheads (Maxi-Jet, Penquin,....) you do not really hear these powerheads failing quite as much. Not trying to contradict on what you were saying but something to think about.

[falcondob]

I would think there is just as many Maxi-Jets out there too. Between all of the Marineland brands for powerheads (Maxi-Jet, Penquin,....) you do not really hear these powerheads failing quite as much. Not trying to contradict on what you were saying but something to think about.


I don't think the statements are contradictory. There may just as many failures of Rio pumps as there are of Marineland pumps. I think what makes the Rio failures "front page news", is the aftermath. It appears that Rio pump failures are many times followed by catastrophic infusion of toxic, or at least noxious, chemicals, leading to lots of livestock death. Whereas, it appears that Maxi-jet pumps just fail, with no release of chemicals.

Just trying to put 2 and 2 together.

[Instar]

I've had just as many Maxi Jets fail as Rios. They just stay sealed and don't burn like a Rio. No toxins in a Rio that affect fish or inverts as even the sea urchin and all the other critters and pods, mysis and remaining fish are doing just fine with no water changes, no skimmer and no carbon. If there could have been toxins inside, must have precipitated. And there is no need for lubricants, there are no moving parts inside. The proximity to the pump when the current goes through the water makes a difference. The shock is harsher near the source in salt water and gets diluted out the farther it has to travel. At the far end of the tank, things were fine, near end was death. The male six line jumped out as it turns out. He's been in there for years but he made quite a leap that day. His mate emerged a couple days later unharmed.

What do ya'll think about GFCI's after an UPS? This might solve the GFCI turning the pumps off during an electric storm?