240g tank feedback?

[NaCl_H2O]

I am thinking of adding another tank to my system. A 240g (96" x 18" x 31") - on the wall opposite the current system, completing the hallway of aquariums effect, with plumbing running under an elevated walkway between the tanks.

The question is ... I need the 18" tank flat against the wall, and was thinking I could do a calfo style overflow at each of the 18" ends. Would this be adequate for a 240 FO tank? I would get it Non-reef ready and get the ends drilled for the Calfos.

Content would probably be either agressive - Rays & Eels, and/or Triggers.

Looking for some feedback on the idea? Thanks!

[GaryP]

3 ft. of calfo overflow would probably be adequate. You could adjust the return flow to compensate for the linear length of the overflow. Chances are that we run a lot more through the overflow then is really necessary.

[captexas]

I think you should go with an Oceanic 240g reef-ready tank with holes already drilled in case you want to go full reef with a closed loop later down the road. I happen to have a nice one with cherry trim on it ready to go, only $1000 if you pick it up today! lol

[NaCl_H2O]

I think you should go with an Oceanic 240g reef-ready tank with holes already drilled in case you want to go full reef with a closed loop later down the road. I happen to have a nice one with cherry trim on it ready to go, only $1000 if you pick it up today! lol

Chris, I looked hard at yours & measured ... unfortunately 24" deep is not going to work :(

[captexas]

Bummer, I didn't see the 18in. wide ends you mentioned. I would think the Calfos would work find with one on each end as long as you have large enough drain lines on it. The limited linear distance on the overflow is only a factor if you can't drain the water that's overflowing it fast enough. You could do 2 or even 3 drains for each end and have them connect to a single larger diameter pipe to handle the flow. You could put valves on each of the drain lines in case you need to close one off or change it later. Then it's just a matter of how you want to plumb the returns.

[NaCl_H2O]

Thanks for the feedback folks!

Brian, I really don't want "Two Systems", but completely understand your sugestion. I am going to upgrade my Turboflotor 5000 to dual needle wheel pumps, and was thinking I would at least put a small sump with mechanical filtration under the new tank ... and maybe one of those "torpedoes" Richard & Mark are experimenting with?

[don-n-sa]

Brian is right about the eels and triggers, but with your sheer volume and skimmer pump added you should be ok, if not the torpedo or a sulfur denitrifier would do it.

[NaCl_H2O]

Ok, next question ... manufacturer for a 96" x 18" x ??" - actually, I would like the depth to be outrageous, like maybe 40" :w00t but I expect that would be a custom ($$) tank. I already send an EMail to Oceanic??

Looks like GlassCages has a standard 96x18x31 for about $700

Oh yea, I want a glass tank - any other vendors I should look at?

[GaryP]

I think Glasscages will be the most cost effective.

[NaCl_H2O]

Great links, thanks Brian :)

[matt]

You might consider a new skimmer; how about a 5 ft tall 8" tube dual beckett? :innocent

[NaCl_H2O]

You might consider a new skimmer; how about a 5 ft tall 8" tube dual beckett? :innocent
I wouldn't know where to find one of those ;)

Seriously, I really like my TF5K ... "plug & play"

[GaryP]

You might consider a new skimmer; how about a 5 ft tall 8" tube dual beckett? :innocent
I don't think downsizing his skimmer will help Matt. Besides, he already had to put that hole in the ceiling for the skimmer he has now. :)

[Bill S]

Steve,

My 215 has a calfo at only one end - 1800gph return pump. I had a 2400gph, and it worked fine. I have photos posted somewhere...

[matt]

You might consider a new skimmer; how about a 5 ft tall 8" tube dual beckett? :innocent
I don't think downsizing his skimmer will help Matt. Besides, he already had to put that hole in the ceiling for the skimmer he has now. :)

Seeing as how this would be double the size of the skimmer that Fin-addict uses on most of the tanks in the store, I kind of doubt it's downsizing, but of course you're kidding around.

I'd like to see the turbofloter once school calms down and I have a little time. I have to say, though, that what I've seen of needlewheel skimmers so far is not impressive, especially on the larger ones. It does take a big powerful pump to drive a beckett skimmer, but with the right pump and the right drain set up they're pretty well adjustment free once they're initially adjusted and much more powerful than anything I've ever seen in a needlewheel skimmer. (I've never seen the big $5k deltecs or bubblekings) I'm going to build 2 more small needlewheel skimmers; one for me and one for Jim; in small systems I think they work great.

[falcondob]

<snip>..in small systems I think they work great.

What do you consider a "small" system, Matt? Also, why would it matter the size? Does it have to do with thru-put?

[matt]

Little bit of a hijack here, but basically I think the pumps used in needlewheel skimmers that I've seen (typical sedra and ocean runner) work best when you're dealing with a fairly small volume of water in the skimmer; that's why the big needlewheel skimmers use multiple pumps. Supposedly the deltec and bubbleking skimmers use much more expensive pumps (aquabee or something like that) and that's why they work so much better on big systems, so they say.

Anyhow, when you get a bigger water volume, it takes alot more power to draw air into the water, and becketts, when driven by the right pump, do an amazing job of this. It takes more power because A) you need ALOT more air and B) drawing air into a water column at any sort of depth means you're fighting against the buoyancy of air; just try submerging in a pool even a couple of feet and trying to breathe through a hose; you'll immediately see what I mean. The teeny venturis on the 40 watt pumps just can't draw much air into the water when the skimmer volume is anything large or the tube is over a couple of feet tall. I know the manufacturers try to compensate for that in various ways, and since they're really popular, obviously it's working to some extent. But, using a 200 watt pump to force water through a beckett at the top of a big water column draws WAY more air into the tube. It's just that with such a big pump, you need a skimmer with alot of volume to have any sort of decent contact time and foam stability. With the small needlewheel skimmers, you can get that in a small package.

I'm not experienced enough with the needlewheel skimmers to know what size system they're really effective on; I'm making one for my 60 gallon corner tank. The first one I made was used on Felipe's front system for a month or so (approx 250 gal) and pulled alot of crud out, but I'm pretty certain the "small" beckett skimmer I just made for him will pull alot more, even though the tube size is exactly the same. Now, if I made a needlewheel skimmer with a bigger tube and say three sedras instead of one, then it might be perfect for something that size. I paid about $90 for the sedra needlewheel pump, so buying three really drives up the price of the skimmer. You can bet 75% of the manufacturing cost of the euroreefs is the pumps, and you can also bet they don't pay anything near what they sell those pumps to the general public for.

Maybe there's the possibilty that a euroreef skimmer the same size I made with the same pump would work alot better on a big tank, but I kind of doubt it because they're so simple...it's just a tube, cup, and drain fitting; the pump does everything.

[falcondob]

Thanks Matt, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and "Sorry" to Steve for hijacking his thread.

Please return to your regularly scheduled program.... :blush

[don-n-sa]

I have no idea what Matt just said but one thing I do know is this:

I have the 6ft tall turbofloater with two ocean runner pumps and the thing produces, I believe thats the bottom line. In my system it creats about a gallon a week, yes a gallon. It is set somewhere between wet and dry so its not moslty liquid either, it is dark tea colored.

I used to have a very nice beckett, and it produced great so either way they both work, however, what I like about the needlewheels is that they are truly set and forget. I absolutely never have to adjust this skimmer. I have a valve on the output of my skimmer feed pump, and another on the input to the skimmer , that way when I do clean it, the only thing I do is close the valve from the feed pump a little, and while the skimmer is running I clean the cup. After cleaning I just slide the cup back , open up the pump all they way, and poof back up and running in 5 min or less!!!. The TF is incredibly easy to clean. Every person I know that has had a beckett, are constantly adjusting them, they either produce too much when clean or not enough even when they are a little dirty. Oh thats another thing about needlewheels, they work even when they are even a little dirty.

IMO becketts are awsome skimmers that produce ( especially Matt's), they even outperform neeedlewheels to an extent, but when you factor in time, efficiency ,and ease of use, there is no comparison

Again its just IMO.

[NaCl_H2O]

Don - regarding cleaning the TF5K, I simply shut off the air supply to the venturi(s) which causes the level in the neck to drop enough to do the cleaning - I don't adjust the pump volume, just starve it of air ;)

Matt - I think you are 100% correct on how & why the becketts work so well ... you should know! I also think that you are correct in that a venturi/needle wheel skimer needs to somehow provide more contact time to work well. My TF accomplishes this by having a relatively low flow "through" the skimmer (I feed mine with a Mag12), and a large reaction chamber (close to 4' vertical from venturi to cup). The TF has an external venturi in front of the pump inlet that appears to be very efficient. Other pumps I have seen with "built in" venturis, or the small diameter Kent venturi are horrible in comparison.

I don't get as much production as Don, but also don't have as much waste as his preditor setup. When I first was cycling my tanks with uncured LR, I was probably generating 1g of "muck" per day.

You really need to see one of these TFs in person, I think they would be trivial (and cheap) to make something equivalent.

[scuba_steveo]

I would not add it to the same system even though you will be increasing the water volume you will be creating a very large bio-load with those fish. Even if you upgrade the skimmer I think you will have problems. I don't know from experience but I would not mess with an already established nice setup. Also, even though it would be long enough I do not think 18" deep is enough. Once again I do not have experience with aggressive fish but I believe depth is very important. I would hate to see a crash in one tank cause a crash in all 4 displays. Just be careful.

[matt]

I have a feeling that 90% or more of any adjustment issues with beckett skimmers are due to either using a less than ideal pump, not having the drain configured right, or designing the skimmer so that the beckett sits lower than the water level in the tube...this is the problem with PM beckett skimmers IMO. You need to have a GOOD pressure rated pump that will not budge as the organic load changes (organic load increase=foam production increase=increased friction in the injector housing and lines=increased back pressure on the pump) and you definitely need to have the skimmer drain into an area in the sump where the water level does not change at all, like before baffles. Also, small beckett skimmers can be pretty touchy; the one I made for myself and used was the smallest I've ever made, (28" tall) and it took me a while to get it adjusted right. The bigger ones are much more stable, provided the conditions I listed are met. Having the injector housing up high is pretty important because it takes any potential back pressure out of the beckett. Another thing is that people will often adjust them with too much air introduced into the water, which causes more turbulence in the tube and makes the skimmer less stable. Well designed beckett skimmers, installed right with the right pump, are pretty much set and forget, but the getting it set right takes some initial fiddling.

Actually, the adjustment part has almost nothing to do with the beckett vs. needlewheel issue, but it's more part of the gate valve vs standpipe issue for the drain. If you had a needlewheel skimmer using only a gate valve to regulate the water height in the tube, it would not work well at all; I tried it as an experiment on the one I made. The standpipe essentially forces the water level in the tube to remain constant and takes back pressure off the needlewheel pumps; if they had to keep the tube filled they'd draw far less air. I'm not sure about a standpipe for a beckett skimmer; I suppose it's possible, but I've never seen it.

Anyhow, if I get some time this summer I'd like to try building a small needlewheel skimmer that uses a beckett instead of the lousy venturi on the sedra pump.

[don-n-sa]

hmmm....a skimmer that is beckett injected and with a needlewheel pump, now that sounds awesome!

Matt if you could make that work, you would sell a tone of them IMO.

[z28pwr]

Matt, the biggest reason for me going to a needle wheel powered skimmer is electricity. It takes much less watts to produce the same amout of skimmate in a needle wheel skimmer. To get a becket to work properly you need a very powerful pressure rated pump that will eat more watts then your wallet can afford. My next system will hold around 700 gallons of water and to get a becket skimmer to handle that much volume I'm going to need a pump that is going to punish me everytime the electriciy bill comes in.

For example a TBF5000 with two ocean runner pumps is 70 watts + a Mag12 to feed it 110watts for a total of 180 watts. I'm sure I would need atleast twice as many watts to power a beckett skimmer than can perform as well as a TBF5000 with dual Ocean Runner Pumps.

[matt]

Right, alot of people like needlewheel skimmers for that reason. But, the big turbofloters use 2 OR pumps for 130W, not 70 (according to championlighting), plus your 110 for the mag 12 equals 240W. A big dual beckett like the one that's running Fin-addict's main system could use the iwaki 70RLT (or pan world equiv) that's 290W, so that's only a 50W difference. The big power savings is on the smaller skimmers that use the smaller OR or sedra vs the iwaki 40RLT for smaller beckett skimmers. Now that sequence has a moderately powered pressure pump, I bet you could drive an 8" tube dual, 5-6 ft tall, on around 300W. That's a very large, very powerful skimmer that could easily handle 1000 gallons of heavily stocked water and keep it very clean.

Don, a gallon of liquid skimmate a week on a tank your size is not unusual; one guy that has my smallest beckett skimmer on his 240 tells me he gets at least that much, and Felipe once told me he has to empty his 5 gallon bucket of skimmate more than once a week. (He's running on a much bigger system) How accurate those reports are I can't say, but I do know I dumped my waste container (about a quart) avery couple of days, running my small beckett on a 110.

I'm not trying to trash the needlewheels; I know they're very popular and there's a reason for that....it's just that I've never seen one that could compete, IMO, with a well designed big beckett skimmer in terms of sheer skimming ability. Like I said, the big deltecs and bubblekings are super popular among the high, high end skimmer connosiers, and they have a pricetag to match.

[NaCl_H2O]

Wow you guys should start a Skimmer debate thread so you don't hijack steve's post :roll :lol
ROFL! I can end the debate!

The best thing about my TF5K ... it is already paid for :P

[NaCl_H2O]

Ok, back on topic ... The Glass Cages quote is hard to beat! Are these decent tanks?

240-8 Gal. Tall tank (96 x 18 x 31) $650
drilled holes @ $20ea
Low iron glass on the front only $180.00
1/2" thick glass all around.
Eurobraced.
Top crossbraced every 24" .

... and now the hard decisions:
- Get someone local to make the Calfo's?
- Shipping cost to San Antonio freight terminal is $365.00, or
- Pick up from truck In Dallas or Houston costs $80.00

[GaryP]

Talk to John and Donnie. They both have the same, or similar tank from GlassCages, along with a few other's. I think Ace has one too?

[hobogato]

as do i. i have been very happy with my tank, and i opted for the $80 pickup in dallas bc we were going up to visit family anyway. as far as the calfo, i made the one on bill streep's tank, and would be willing to make one for you - i usually charge material cost X two.

[don-n-sa]

Ok, back on topic ... The Glass Cages quote is hard to beat! Are these decent tanks?

Ok Steve since you dont want to do a search :P

Here is one of my many quotes on glasscages copied and pasted for ya!

Yes I give a thumbs way up for glasscages!!! They are rock solid.

Here is a list of maast members who have one from Tom@glasscages.com

Gator-------------600g
jeffco-------------375g
faclonbob--------300g
me----------------240g
alexwolf----------240g
fiji2000-----------240g
hobogato---------240g

I am sure I missed a few....but that is a good list to go from

just a note though

Tom is not the most customer service oriented guy around...he is older and set in his ways...my advice to you is to know EXACLTY what you want when you call...don't expect him to help you with hole locations , about closed loops, and stuff like that. He does not like to answer a whole lot of questions, however, he makes solid tanks that are well built and he is a stand up guy.

If you do order a tank and have it shipped then INSPECT the tank fully BEFORE you sign for it...my first one came in shattered and if I would have signed for it without looking I would have been SOL.

HTH

[NaCl_H2O]

as far as the calfo, i made the one on bill streep's tank, and would be willing to make one for you
Thanks Ace, I may take you up on that! Did you make his out of acrylic, and if so di they seal OK with the glass?

[NaCl_H2O]

Ok Steve since you dont want to do a search :P
I did search for "Smart arse posts by Donnie" but I didn't get any hits, obviously our search engine is not very robust ;) ;)

Thanks for the snip-n-re-post Donnie! Now I just gotta save up a little green :)

[don-n-sa]

Oh and I think one of our new members ordered one as well, forgot his user name, I will dig it up for you.

[hobogato]

as far as the calfo, i made the one on bill streep's tank, and would be willing to make one for you
Thanks Ace, I may take you up on that! Did you make his out of acrylic, and if so di they seal OK with the glass?

i made his out of black acrylic. it will stick to the glass just fine with silicone, since the water pressure holds it in place.

bill's doesnt go all the way to the front or back, so it was 4 pieces of acrilic, but if you want to go all the way from front to back, i can bend it out of 1 piece of acrylic so there are no seams.

[don-n-sa]

I did search for "Smart arse posts by Donnie" but I didn't get any hits, obviously our search engine is not very robust ;) ;)


hmmm...thats weird. :lol

Oh I know! Try donny with a "y" instead of "ie" and all my smart arse posts should pop right up. ;)

[NaCl_H2O]

Oh I know! Try donny with a "y" instead of "ie" and all my smart arse posts should pop right up. ;)

Sorry, but according to Googlefight:

Smart arse posts by Donnie = 35,300
Smart arse posts by Donny = 34,900

:P