calcium level problems ?

[blueboy]

i think we are in need of some more reef related threads right now, so i'll share my ongoing calcium/alklinity issues in hopes of getting some good feedback in figuring out what exactly is going on, and hopefully create some good discussion as well. i don't feel that i've ever fully understood the relationship between these parameters, even though several people have tried to explain it to me(although i now believe that some of them didn't really know either :wacko ). and the articles i've attempted to read on the topic have honestly gone over my head for the most part.
anyway, a couple of months ago i was trying to raise my alkalinity in hopes of getting my PH more stable and overdosed Seachem reef builder, i believe this caused a mass die off of a large stand of halimeida( which turned white overnight). i immediatly pulled the hallimieda, did a 30G water change, and ran carbon in a magnum 350 for a few days. there were no losses, and after the water cleared all inhabitants looked well( except the halimeida :( ) ,but it's grown back now ^_^ .
ever since then i have not been able to get my calcium levels up, they just stay in the low 300s. i have done a couple more 20G water changes, and started using Bionic about a month and a half ago. the Bionic has had very little, if any affect on the calcium level. i was beginning to suspect that maybe my magnesium was out of whack, because the alk stays low as well( 2.5), but i don't have a test kit for mag, so i figured i would do another 30G water change, and yesterday mixed up a fresh batch of water. so, this morning i thought i would check the calcium level of the fresh water, and the test kit doesn't even color up to the starting color at all! i would think this means the calcium level is extremely low! i had been using IO, but switched to reef crystals two water changes ago because it claimed to have higher calcium concentrations. now i don't know what to do, i'm afraid changing the water is actually making the issues worse! so, i would really appreciate input from any of you guys with a more firm grasp on chemistry( Gary, are you out there?). thanks in advance.
if anyone is unfarmilliar with my system there is a breif description in my sig, i have no fuge, and no reactors, pretty simple set-up. also, through all of this all inhabitants have looked good, corals are expanding well, strombus snails are breeding like never before, rics are splitting, fish are fat. the only visual indication that something may be off is a squamosa clam that doesn't seem to open fully, but i think it's just being crowded by some anthelia polyps. i'm using a red sea calcium test.

[hammondegge]

perhaps, try with another calcium test kit, or take samples of the tank water and the fresh reefcrystal water to the LFS for a test. i would suspect your kit.

[blueboy]

yeah, that's what i'm beginning to suspect now too, but why would the alk also be low? that is why i thought it may be Mag. too low.

[hammondegge]

hmmmmm, i dont know. Gary?!

[hammondegge]

maybe it is that batch of reefcrystals

[falcondob]

It could be that your calcium is off the chart in the high direction. This is what happened to me when I thought my test kit was bad. Try cutting the test water with 1/3 RODI and try the test again. If you still get no reading, oh Garrrryyyyy......

[blueboy]

yeah, that seems to be another possibility. i wish i had some more test kits so i could confirm/contradict the ones i have. i figure either way it would tell me something. maybe i'll have to run into town and get some new test kits.

[hobogato]

what units are you using on the alkalinity, i know there are three different ones.

[blueboy]

alk is in meq/L , so i think it's about a full point below were it should be.
hobo, did you get my PM yesterday?

[Thunderkat]

I have a 75 gallon aquarium with a plenum system and my calcium level has always stayed high and I have never had a problem with pH. My coralline grows like aiptasia or some similar pest/plague though so that is one thing you might want to think about before setting up a plenum. The plenum works nice, I have heard horror stories about them and supposedly hydrogen sulfide forming bacteria growing in them but when I moved my tank the sand was "clean" and didn't have any black spots.

This could take care of your calcium issues but be sure to buy a bottle of the denitrifying bacteria to make sure you get a good start. Also add nessarius snails to keep the sand clean. I have read about plenums causing dangerously low oxygen levels at night (to the point fish can die), to prevent this problem I used a skimmer rated higher than the capacity of my tank and have cheato growing in my fuge with 24/7 lighting and have a 55 gallon aquarium as my sump/fuge, this adds more surface area to increase oxygen in the tank. The bacteria are the cause for the low oxygen levels by the way.

Hope that helps, just be sure to read up on plenums if you decide to try it.

[blueboy]

why would i be getting a low reading in the tank, but no reading in the fresh mixed( yesterday) water? that seems to imply that it's the salt mix.
i'm going to run some errands in town, so i'll pick up some test kits from the LFS. i guess i'll use them eventually anyway.
oh, alk is being measured with a fastest, and i did check the exp. date on the test kits.

[hobogato]

alk is in meq/L , so i think it's about a full point below were it should be.
hobo, did you get my PM yesterday?

no, send me another.

[blueboy]

i just tried your suggestion falcondob, mixing in 1/3 RO water, no difference. i guess that rules out calcium being too high?

[blueboy]

well, just got back from town with a new test kit, and the new one says the same. tank water calcium is 340, batch mixed yesterday with reefcrystals is 100ppm! this is a brand new bucket of salt, and i am not a happy camper. anyone know a contact # for marineland labs? i think maybe i need to talk to someone there.
i'll go check the alk with the new test kit and let you guys know what it says.

[hammondegge]

ahhh hahhh. 1.800.322.1266 customer service

[blueboy]

alk of fresh batch is 2 Dkh.

[blueboy]

okay, i just got off the phone with ML. they told me that it was practically impossible to have these levels. i think i'm going to have to send in a sample of the salt for them to test. i just think it is highly unlikely that two different test kits would give the same false readings. any other ideas out there?

[hammondegge]

what is the salinity of the reefcrystal batch?

[blueboy]

1.024, that's were i always keep the tank.

[GaryP]

It is possible. All it takes is a batch of salt that was not well mixed. If the batch is not totally homogeneous, you could get a part of the batch that was low in calcium and buffer.

2.5 meq isn't eaxactly a full unit low. Sea water is about 3.0 meq/l. There is a unit conversion calculator here:

http://saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/AlkConv.php

I'm curious why B-Ionic didn't work. There may be two reasons. 1. You weren't using enough. 2. You may have been adding it incorrectly and it was reacting out. This seems unlikely since your levels were already low. This is more common when your levels are on the high side.

[blueboy]

it appears i'm not alone!

[fishcrazy]

When started my 135g I dosed with ca. 2 days on and then one day off, and it took 6 months to finally get my ca. to 420ppm. Every water change you do is dropping your ca. because the water your adding is only 100ppm ca. Which is actually better then most. I use I.O. and I don't think it's even 100ppm in ca.

[GaryP]

IO is "supposed" to have 375 calcium. It was not intended for reef tanks, but rather goes back to the days when most people were doing FO tanks. I started off using IO 12 years ago. That's not to say that you can't use IO for reef tanks, it just means you have to bump up the calcium if you are planning on keeping your calcium in the 425 range. Of course the larger the tank, the more you are going to have to supplement.

I recently changed back from Oceanic to IO. Unless I dose every day I am having a hard time keeping my levels where I want them. I think I need to re-evaluate my use of IO and come up with a new plan. I'm basically having to start over every with dosing every time I do a water change rather then have the water change help out with dosing. Frustrating!

[JeremyGlen]

I know a lot of people don't like the Oceanic salt, but you could switch to that if you really want a high calcium level. I never had to add calcium at all to my tanks when I used it. Just doing water changes kept the tank at 450-470 or a bit higher.

I need to get a new calcium test kit so I can test what is going on with the new salt I'm trying. I'm now using the Tropic Marin Pro Reef salt. I did notice everything "liven up" when I started the switch 2 weeks ago. I'm still in the process of switching salt and have almost completely phased out the Oceanic.

As for the alk, I used to use the Kent Marine superbuffer-dkh when my tanks got low on the alk. It is a very good product to "quickly" raise the alk. I'm just not too sure on its ability to maintain.

If you ever need any help with your tank let me know cause I'm here in San Marcos as well.