Question on a tang

[Jynxgirl]

I was at the petco (I know) and couldnt help but to wonder over to the poor little fish. Usually they have the assortment of ich ridden clownfish that I just feel terrible for, a few other fish.. all ich infested.. a few yellow tangs.. and the list goes on.. but then.. this little white tang, scared and huddling, only to try and shoot/jump out of the tank caught my eye. I felt so bad for the little fellow. The 'new' fish lady was back there. She had prepared a special 'mixure' to try and save the trigger fish and help out the little tang (the trigger was a complete goner) and I spoke with her. Long story short, the little guy came home with me. I looked and looked in my book but could not find a picture of it in the handy dandy fish guide the store had. Its the same one I bought that was recommended. Its not in it, at least not looking like this.I didnt take mine with me as I wasn't expecting to be bringing home a fish. But, it looked like a harmless enough tang and if it grows too too big it can always go to my brothers mammoth of a tank but I am going to say that is quite a ways away as it's pretty small. Right now, about an inch. I have looked and looked to try and find him and this is what it looks like.

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11_03/product_info.php?products_id=724&parent_category=4 &category_search=61&root_parent_id=4

I don't know if this is labeled correctly or wow do they go under a transformation as they grow. Anyone have input? If it is, then it will be heading off sooner then I thought but still will be ok for a year or so in my 135 I would think. I have had it for three days and everything seems to be going good so far. If it gets upset or scared it immediatly hides and also gets spots of black on him. Not a very outgoing fish. Its still very neat and seems to love to play in the rocks.

Jill

[falcondob]

Jill,
It may take a little while for the fish to get acclimated to you and your tank. I put a purple tang in my tank and after about 5-6 days he is just now becoming a part of the community, and he was from an established, stable tank.

As far as identification goes, wait a couple of weeks, let him settle down, and see what he colors up to look like. Then take a pic and post it here and Reef Central.

Make sure you give him some nori. Don't use the grocery store stuff. It falls apart and my tangs won't even eat it. Get some good stuff from a LFS.

[miked78231]

why is it that petcos fish always look sick and starved? i use to go there every other week to get my salt so i would always look to see what they had in. everytime i saw the fish get worse. do they not care or do they get them in perfect health then petco messes them up or what?

[hobogato]

if it is a vlamingi, it is gonna get huge! when they are very young, they are almost solid light (almost white) grey with tiny sky blue dots. as they get older the dots become more apparent, and they change color and shape as well. here's a pic i found comparing juvenile and adult male. a really small one will be much lighter than the juvenile in the pic.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/vlamingi.jpg

the one i have is about 8" long - not even half full size (they get up to 2'), but already showing some cool colors. here's a not so good pic

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/vlamingi3.jpg

[brieman]

Are those the same as Blue Lip Tangs? I have one that is similar looking.

[hobogato]

i think that is one of the common names.

[Jynxgirl]

Mine doesnt look so long. I need to get a picture of it. I will try in the next few days.

The new lady at this petco is trying, but they will not allow her to order lights but want her to order polyps and anemones even though she tells her boss's over and over that if they are not bought within a few days, they will die. To my understanding, a few sold is worth the few dead. And the sick clown fish. She is suppose to keep so many in stock but then those ones dont sell and they order more and those bigger ones pick on the little ones, to death! Sad SAD SAD. She was mushing up food to feed them that was the stuff she isnt suppose to use :D She just "ooops, it ripped" a box and then can write it off and use it. She brings garlic now from home and uses it as well even though she was told not to do that as its not 'approved'. I couldnt do her job. My boss would walk back there and I would have like ten 55 gallons set up all over the floor that I would just set up from stuff on the floor :unsure I dont think they would like me that much. I would be looking for a new job.

I am going to put my blinders on and walk directly to the sand and salt, and walk directly out... If it is a vlamingo, what the heck is it doing as an assorted tang for 20$ :(

Jill

[hobogato]

If it is a vlamingo, what the heck is it doing as an assorted tang for 20$ :(

Jill

happens. especially that small. post some pics. notice that the juvenile isnt as long as the adult. i think they completely change shape as they get older.

[DaneDodger]

Found ya, Jill! Thanks for recommending the site, it looks great and I'm always up for learning something new or sharing what I know with other marine addicts :D

why is it that petcos fish always look sick and starved? i use to go there every other week to get my salt so i would always look to see what they had in. everytime i saw the fish get worse. do they not care or do they get them in perfect health then petco messes them up or what?
Inside scoop, it's a big variety of things! #1 problem has got to be ignorance and lack of caring. Right now my store is managed by a guy that had to ask me if it was safe to put two male bettas in the same tank together!!!! Think he knows the very first thing about marine tanks??? :lol
#2 is probably that Petco tries to maximize profits and that coupled with an overwhelming amount of ignorance about what these animals need is often disasterous. I.e., the person in charge of quality control of animal care for several stores insists the freshwater fish only get flakes and crumbles, never frozen, and that even salt fish only get frozen once a week at the most plus all they'll send me for frozen is brine shrimp. That's not good enough for me so I pull what I think is better off the shelf. That means that salt fish get Formula 1 and 2 pellets, flake, but mostly Formula 1 and 2 frozen, Marine Cuisine, Emerald Entree, and for those it's appropriate silversides and krill all soaked in garlic. And fresh get the same variety only heavier on the multiple types of pellets and flakes. I'm sorry but my cichlids and bettas especially would REVOLT without their weekly treat of frozen bloodworms!!! :lol
Yep, the tanks are ich ridden. I've told them over and over again that if they don't let me kill it all off once and for all the fish will only continue to come down with it. I've also told them that the most effective cures for ich that I've found so far are copper or hyposalinity treatment. Treating with copper means I'd have to set up a seperate tank for inverts which they will not let me do, won't even listen to, so that's out. I tried a hyposalinity treatment back when there were no inverts but each day I'd drop the salinity down a bit only to come back the next day to find that someone had added salt. The old Aquatics Specialist insists that the fish will all die with the treatment I advise and she's convinced them that I'm a total no brainer crackpot for even suggesting it. I figured the salinity constantly fluctuating up and down was worse for the animals and gave up on it. I really wanted to fix the current problems before moving into some of the hardier inverts but I finally decided that they weren't going to let me fix the problems and at least inverts can't catch ich.
It is hard to keep going in day after day!! But I also need a job (and don't know of a single other place working with animals that would pay me almost $10 an hour!) and I know where the Aquatics Dept. was at before I stepped in, dirty, dying fish, not fed properly, nitrates over 200, nasty stuff on the substrate... Doing the best I can do under their ridiculous restrictions is still better than anything else those poor fish have going so I keep plugging away at it :)
Jenn

[blueboy]

wow, you have incredible patience and dedication. i commend your efforts, but it really saddens me that progress cannot be made. i guess it's the nature of a "corporate" pet store, too many regulations made with profits in mind get in the way of employees who are trying to react to situations in the best interest of the livestock. i don't go in those places at all any more, i doubt they miss me, but at least i know that i;m not supporting them. i'd rather pay a few buck more for salt at one of the LFSs that has been good to me and the hobby as a whole.

[Jynxgirl]

Hey Jenn!

Great site and you will enjoy. If you have ANY questions, there are so many great people who can help.

See, I contributed :D I got another person to sign up.. I think I have rounded up a total of 3 now :D and I think after talking to another guy who 'stole' my baby maroon clown at the LFS here in Killeen (he got there ten minutes before I did), he will be joining too! :D

Jill

[Jynxgirl]

Double posted :(

[DaneDodger]

i don't go in those places at all any more, i doubt they miss me, but at least i know that i;m not supporting them.
I don't blame you one bit! I feel like if they continue to lose customers and hear enough customer complaints maybe stores like Petco will start to change for the better.
The sad thing is we really don't have a great choice here any closer than Austin. There's four stores closer than Austin that sell saltwater at all. One I can't really say much about because I've only been in once but they didn't have any selection at all, were pretty overpriced, and seem to concentrate more on their birds. Two are very hit or miss, sometimes ok other times sick fish, dirty tanks, plus they both sell dyed and tattooed fish which turns my stomach! :sick And then there's my store.
I do my best to make up for any problems by constantly learning all I can so that customers will at least have solid, accurate information, and really knowing each of my fish so that I can advise people which ones might be good buys and which to steer clear of.
Like that puffer Jill mentioned, someone did want to buy him, very new to the hobby, but I told them flat out I wouldn't sell him and showed them what a severe case of ich looked like! I told them IF they had a hospital tank that I'd ADOPT the puffer to them (free) if they wanted to try to save him but that frankly I didn't feel his chances were good at all. They didn't have an iso tank so I advised them to wait till I had a healthy one if that's the fish they reallly wanted. Sure enough he passed on the next day. :(
My mantra for work is I can only do the best that I can do! :D

[GaryP]

My biggest problem is that places like Petco will only sell to people that don't know any better. The newbies. An experienced hobbyist will travel to Austin and bypass Petco. When the newbie can't understand why his fish all die, he will drop out and think it was his fault or it was just "too hard." This is one of the reasons why organizations like MAAST was founded.

Dane, thank you very much for your insght and efforts to improve things even though it seems like you are trying to roll the ball up the corporate mountain. Welcome to MAAST!

[DaneDodger]

I completely agree with you, Gary! Our last general manager actually flat out gave that as an excuse to refuse an improvement I suggested, "serious hobbyists don't buy from us anyway" :angry She actually makes the THIRD person I've reported for theft and got fired. Now I'm just hoping and PRAYING that the next one they hire will be honest, open to my ideas, and know something about fish doggonit!!!
:lol

This is one of the reasons why organizations like MAAST was founded.
And it's why I decided to come on over to the board here and am seriously considering joining up! I'm big on the public education and am happy to find a group also trying to spread the word!

Dane, thank you very much for your insght and efforts to improve things even though it seems like you are trying to roll the ball up the corporate mountain. Welcome to MAAST!
Nice turn of phrase there, very fitting :lol I've always been something of a windmill tilter, I'm afraid. Thanks and thanks again to Jill for "recruiting" me!

[GaryP]

Dane,

We'd be glad to have you. We're starting to see a growing presence up in your area. Besides Jill, we have a member moving to Killeen this summer from Az. I think we have several others up in that area. I wouldn't be surprised if you huys could get a satellite group started up there like we have in the valley and is started to get organized in Corpus.

[DaneDodger]

That would be great!!! Send him our way and we'll give him a proper Texas welcome :D

[falcondob]

Jenn, welcome to MAAST!

I applaud your efforts and totally empathize with your battles against "corporate stupidity" (I know..I know..oxymoron, redundant, etc..).

My advice is to do the best you can to care for these unfortunate animals the best you can. You can't help them if you don't have the job, so be discreet and careful.

From the MAAST side, Members. I think this deserves an email/snail mail writing campaign. Large pet stores are always under fire from animal rights groups (moderate and extreme). I don't think they would like to have another black eye.

What are your feelings?

[DaneDodger]

Thank you, John :D I do seem to be a person with several traits that count as both blessing and curse, windmill tilting and the too often nearly lethal disease of blunt honesty and caring :wacko It's gotten me into trouble more often than I care to count anymore but however many times I end up wishing to change it deep deep down I'm just not convinced they're BAD traits.
If anyone would like to explore the possibilities of a letter writing campaign I'd be happy to be your "inside man". Perhaps one way to keep my job secure but still accomplish something with it would be to talk in general about the problems common to all the stores then just leave my actual name out of it.
Ugh there goes my curse again!! It bothers me to have to hide like that, in my twisted little brain if you have to hide it it probably isn't the right thing to do. I should be able to go up the "chain of command" just telling them how things are to enact changes for the better with no worry of negative reprecussions. But such is the world we live in <_<
I'm in (in my own, way too verbose way :lol ) How can I help?

[falcondob]

I agree with you. You need to maintain your anonymity to protect your job. Let me talk with the officers/BOD and see what the implications are. Then I can draft a letter/email that ANYONE can send to PETCO headquarters.

[GaryP]

Better yet, how about we send to both corporate and to her district/regional manager? You mentioned a particular manager that said fish only needed to be fed flake. Can you get us a name and address?

We could print up letters and get signatures at MAAST meetings.

[falcondob]

Better yet, how about we send to both corporate and to her district/regional manager? You mentioned a particular manager that said fish only needed to be fed flake. Can you get us a name and address?

We could print up letters and get signatures at MAAST meetings.

Sounds good, the more people that get it the better. However, sometimes volume is better than signatures.

[GaryP]

I was just thinking that lack of knowledge on the district level in charge of the fish dept. seems to be the problem. I think this is understandable. They probably came up through the system and learned the same misinformation that they are out there perpetuating as managers now. Obviously they have no experience as hobbysists themselves.

The staatement that experienced aquarists don't by from Petco sounds like the lamest thing I have ever heard. In saying that he seems willing to resign himself to the fact that he is willing to give on 90% of the market. Its not like we wouldn't buy from them if price and quality were there. Well, maybe not. I would rather support the local LFS that actually has experience and knowledge.

Because of their size and buying power, I'm sure they are getting livestock at such a low wholesale price that they are willing to accept losses that would put any LFS out of business.

[DaneDodger]

Sounds like a good start on a plan of action to me. Keep me in the loop and I'll facilitate in any way I can.

Better yet, how about we send to both corporate and to her district/regional manager? You mentioned a particular manager that said fish only needed to be fed flake. Can you get us a name and address?
I was hired on as a Team Lead and voluntarily stepped down to Aquatics when it became apparent that the fish needed me (and that neither of the general managers I worked under had any intention of honoring their promise to me to promote me to salaried manager...just so you know fair and honest that I wasn't COMPLETELY altruistic in my decision :lol ) so I'm fairly well in the know concerning who's who and such. From bottom up in the stores there's associates, specialists, team leads, salaried manager, and general manager. Above the general manager the higher ups we deal with regularly at the store level is a district manager, who mainly oversees how the store looks and is doing on a whole, and a type of district animal care manager, who is in charge of seeing that the animal's needs in particular are being met according to Petco policy. Those two we usually only see about once a month or so.
Yes, the district animal care manager is the one who (through a store manager) ordered when asked what she wanted me to feed the fish that freshwater fish get only one type of flake and one type of pellet, saltwater fish normally get one flake, one pellet, and only once a week frozen (which I take to mean only brine shrimp since that's all they've sent me despite repeated orders for AT LEAST mysis instead). She's very strange and repeatedly contradicts her own and other's orders and such leaving me to just jump through whatever new hoop she puts up.
At one time I had a very serious couple who were hobbyists that also wanted to do something about the problems just as I was stepping down into Aquatics. They took pictures of a bagged saltwater fish they'd purchased as they tested the water showing nitrates well over 200 to document their concerns. I gave them the name of the two district overseers not thinking twice about it. If a customer directly asks for the name of a higher up shouldn't they get it? If Petco lives up to it's own standards they shouldn't have anything to hide, right?
Apparently some in the store didn't think so because the general manager was furious! If she knew it was ME that gave them the info I have no doubt she would've fired me right then. Honestly my personal take on that situation, not being in management just then so piecing things together, I believe that corporate took this couple's concerns very seriously so the AHEM rolled downhill from there which is really what got the GM's panties in a twist.
Hmmm perhaps we could get you in touch with that couple and ask them to give you the info so that I'm clear on that particular account.
As to present concerns, in my store those nitrate levels have certainly been fixed! Petco policy is to test three tanks with the most inhabitants three times per week and record the results (salt and two fresh). If the readings fall outside of what policy says is acceptable I'm expected to make the changes to fix it. I don't have the sheet right in front of me and frankly I never go by it anyway because I feel my own standards are higher than they expect. I.e., policy says that if nitrates are at either 70 or 80 (can't remember exactly) or higher I must do a water change. In my mind, especially considering we've started carrying inverts, this is absolutely not good enough. If I test a tank that reads higher than 20 nitrate I do a water change.
It seems to me that we need to list exactly what the problems are, why they're problems, what Petco should do to fix them, and who to send all the info to. Agreed? If so when I go into work tomorrow I'll get exact details on policy and anything else I can think of that would help out and give it to you guys.
(Sorry, I got so long winded here that I had to log back in to reply!! :lol )
Jenn

[jroescher]

Maybe the proper course would be to go to someone really high up in the chain, and somehow convice/entice them to take an interest in the better management of thier livestock. Make them aware of everyone's concerns and offer to help or provide some guidance in some way. Maybe offer to write some standards and protocols for care. Get them to attend a meeting or something where they actually see what a healthy tank really looks like.

Then as the AHEM rolls down....

Of course another action could be:
Dear District/Regional Manager, the news is here with thier cameras doing a story on the pitiful shape of our livestock and that we even turned down local hobbyists offering to help. What do I tell them??

[Bug_Power]

Don't worry your not the first to be in your situation either. I have a guy I went to HS with that after HS we parted ways. He ended up going to the Port A UT Marine Bio school and worked in the Phytoplankton research lab. He worked at Petco as well. He saw the horrible shape the tanks were in and began a transformation. He brought in some lights from home, Halides and such, cleaned up the tanks, ordered fish that people really wanted which thier supplier carried, however they were not supposed to order. SPS's LPS's you name it. The store was #1 in the nation in SW animal sales. Well big wig's came out, saw the setup and had him remove it because it wasn't "coorporate approved" So he took it down and new my niece get's to see all the "dusty fish" I tried to save a Racoon Butterfly which began an ICH outbreak that killed over $300 in fish. I now have a QT tank! Don't get frustrated, keep on keepin' on and I hope all get's better at your store.

BTW
My buddy from HS now owns his own LFS, Exotic Aquatic, and one of the other guys works at a competing LFS.

[DaneDodger]

Don't get frustrated, keep on keepin' on and I hope all get's better at your store.

Impossible. I know I'll be frustrated and want to throw in the towel from time to time but I've also been through some REAL traumas in my life too so I know Petco can't dish out a single thing I can't take either.


BTW
My buddy from HS now owns his own LFS, Exotic Aquatic, and one of the other guys works at a competing LFS.

Now that is one of my dreams!!! If I concentrated mainly on saltwater animals and supplies in this area there's no way the other stores could match me. It always comes down to money though :(
Jenn