The great debate, continued [Archive]

Shark_Bait

Tue, 4th Apr 2006, 11:05 PM

I'll go first here...

Ex: EVERYONE goes to the pet store to buy something, well 10% off here, and 20% of there will save you ALOT.
Another EX: I went Rivercity to get some Tropic Marin Pro... It was 89.99 Surprised, Then Carlos said since you are a MAAST member I will do it for 75$ even. So right there Being a CHARTER member saved me 15$, 10$ to go.
Then add all the times you went to the LFS and think about all the money you could have saved.( that could pay for MAAST renewal fees for a while) I mean enough to replace your bulbs, or buy some supplies(carbon,filter floss,etc), shoot whatever you decide. The point is you can save alot of money! So you DO benefit from being a CHARTER member.

Though I am a charter member and have been for 2 years now I totally see where Bug and Troy are coming from. Being down here in Corpus kills us when it comes to this club. Sure we get a discount if we want to spend that discount on gas to come up there. As our 1 LFS is not a sponsor and will not give us discounts. We have another LFS trying to get on it's feet and maybe we can get something going there if they ever get out of the red. Due to the separation it is really difficult to buy/sell things to other members or participate in group buys.
I have paid my dues because I am still learning and feel it is the right thing to do for a site that helps me. If I was not still learning.

First plus is ALL of the people that you meet, and all of the future friends you have
I don't think we should have to pay for friends ;). I have been to a few meetings and except for a very few people I am treated like an outsider. Everyone from SA knows each other the Austin people the same way. I am not crying about it. I'm a big boy and don't have to fit in and be the popular guy everytime. I do think that it effected my applications for both BOD and a moderator. Either way I am still happy to be part of MAAST. This website makes us who we are. I see that we are thinking about hosting MACNA in a few years and that would be great but as we can't seem to even run a web site smooth I think that would be a bad idea at this point.
I understand that a site cost money and I'm sure we use our fair share of bandwith and I have no problem donating to help that but why does MAAST need thousands of dollars in the bank? I have yet been to a meeting that was all that. Maybe the Paletta talk at Sea World but from what I understand that was a first for the club, maybe we have other things in the works that will cost a big hunk of change but I also know that we get alot of things donated to us.
So should there be benifits to donating/paying dues? Sure but to force people to pay to get info is crazy in this day and age. There are alot of free sites that people can go to to to get info. We have a excelent knowledge base here, that has helped me and others save time and money by not having to comb through the internet for the info and make mistakes. We need to take care of all our memebers wether charter or web. [/b]

Bug_Power

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 01:31 AM

I think you should discuss the possible financial implications with your charter members and sponsors as well. I know if I paid for my banner ad and you made a decision which could impact the audience my banner was presented to I'd be a bit upset. Once again I've seen Car guys who spend as much or WAAAAY more (try $2000 on tires alone, not rims but tires) refuse to pay for a $30 fee. Why because as much as you would like to think your site is unique, there are other free ones out there. I know when I first found this site, if I had to pay to register I would have stayed on MARSH or RC.
When you look at projected growth, you need to adjust your sponsor pricing to go along with it. Active and agressive marketing to sponsors has show to sustain these internet sites quite well. If your advertising is effective, then business should relish the opportunity to grow with MAAST.
Once again unless you can show any additional value, I'm afraid you'll lose me as a web member. I don't plan on making any of the meetings or events, I don't get any discounts down here, and if I wanted to pay for companionship, frankly I'd hire a hooker.

Bill S

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 09:03 AM

Something to consider: maybe a nominal membership fee for distant members - like anything over 100 miles.

Also: As a relative newbie here, I find it important to when getting to know people here that folks:

1) put your first name in your signature or sign your posts
and
2) make SURE your location is in your profile. Bug was selling a pump that would have liked to try, but I didn't know how far away he was.

miked78231

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 09:26 AM

where do you go to pay for the membership?

dwdenny

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 09:49 AM

Yeah I am in Edniburg 245 miles south of SA and I still paid my membership dues. I feel that as much as I use this site I could at least pay 25 bucks. I would pay at RC but not sure what all I get there. At least I know that if I go to SA on a work trip or whatever I can at least get some type of discounts at stores when I am there.

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 11:55 AM

where do you go to pay for the membership?

Mike,

You can Paypal the $25 membership dues to: treasurer@maast.org

OR

mail a check to MAAST, P.O. Box 780582, San Antonio, TX 78278

OR

Pay at any meeting.

HTH.

Ed

Salty

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 01:20 PM

Is this a non profit organization? If so, dues could be tax deductible.

My .02:

If you lock me out of places I like to use and find value in, then I would pay dues to use them. It really is that simple.

__
Daniel

falcondob

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 01:27 PM

Paid membership is about support and commitment. I applaud those Charter Members who are remote to San Antonio and understand the remote Non-Charter Members concerns. I think it would be a great idea to provide some "extras" to Charter Members in remote areas. Possibilites: reduced membership fee, raffle tickets, something to reward their commitment.

SBreef

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 01:41 PM

So Chris, WHY have you not RENEWED?

SLAYCHILD

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 02:09 PM

You know what? I love this place and I wouldnt be able to have my tank the way it is today if it wasnt for the Charter Memebers and others. I thank you guys from the bottom of my heart and there is nothing that is going to stop me from being a member soon. I like this place. Im on it everyday. Reading, posting and it makes my day at work sometime go by faster. I think that if Charter Members want thier own forum. Then there should be a place on the site that is only for them and not web members. But at the same time leave it open for all.

MattK

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 02:54 PM

We already have our own forum. :innocent

captexas

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 02:58 PM

Roy - I'm sure all the BOD is curious and not that this is the place for a discussion on my personal reasons, but here you go.

1. I haven't attended a meeting since the one at Robert's house which I think was last summer. I have been busy with some difficult but hopefully great changes in my life that have forced me to focus on other more important things. I have always been an active member and supporter of this club since the beginning and have always been a paid member up until 2006 because of the above reasons. Yes $25 is a great deal and there are lots of benefits, but I would not reap any of those benefits as I only participate online at this time. I don't care what people say, they don't pay up their $25 until it comes time for either being forced into it for a vote, participating in a members only raffle, or getting some kind of discount. Again, I don't go to meetings, don't participate in Member's Only raffles, didn't need a discounted admission for the 1 speaking engagement this club has put on, don't need a disount at any LFS, don't need to post pictures in the image gallery, or any of the other numerous benefits the Charter Members already get.

2. The elitist attitude of a few charter members lately disturbs me, especially now that they want to start chipping away at what has always been free, always been open to anyone, and has always been what gets people interested in joining MAAST to begin with.

3. Also, the issues with the site being slow has been around for years and after always hearing we need to upgrade AGAIN, pay MORE money AGAIN, you start to wonder if your money is being well spent and/or if there are other issues to managing this site that are being missed/ignored. We have a ton of IT people that are hobbyists on this site. A long term solution needs to be found and with so many people like this around, it shouldn't be that hard.

4. This issue the "Charter Members" are discussing/voting on makes absolutely no sense to me and if passed, will push me and others away from participating. If they feel they are being ripped off so much by web members for their "measly" $25, why are they only wanting to restrict a few forums and not the entire site? How does that make any sense? Especially the For Sale forums where Charter members actually benefit from all the great deals web members post! I also see that if this is passed, what will be next? This will not increase membership and will benefit them in no way what-so-ever. So . . . the next step will be to restrict the site even more, which will have the same affect, push people away and eventually lead to the demise of a site we all so love.

5. Another reason I haven't paid for my membership is due to so much turmoil lately. I have always worked to defend this club and the BOD. It has become extremely difficult to want to do so lately with everything that has gone on and with certain BOD's overstepping their boundries or mouthing off to people on this site. It doesn't matter whether you are a paid or web member, your opinion should be respected.

6. Most importantly, over the years, the BOD has always wanted to find ways to increase paid membership. There as always been an attitude that we need more money, we need more money! And other than the Sea World event, no real events have been put on to benefit the paid members who give all this money. All the big raffles that are for members only are all donated items from sponsors so the club pays nothing for it, but gets more money from selling tickets. There is a dream out there of hosting MACNA and we need lots of money for that. That will never happen anytime soon as there is not enough strong leadership and active participation by club members to put on such a large event. I was on the BOD when we considered this. Yes it might be doable in the future, but the club needs to get its act together for more local events before then. Why take in all this money, thousands of dollars and not spend it on the club members?

Overall, even though I have kind of gotten out of the hobby, I planned to stay active on here as I will someday have a tank again. I would still attend meetings if there is some good topics, not the usual algae/chemical lectures and even pay for my membership, but that won't happen if this club continues as is.

ratboy

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 03:00 PM

I've been a member since the early days and even before when ARK was how we had questions answered, traded corals, sold tanks etc.. Like others here I check in every day and post my thoughts if so inclined and check the for sale/wanted sections for anything I need or need to get rid of. So if I enjoy it so much why don't I cough up the 25$? Sure I get access to new opinions and information but in the modern age we're in that sort of thing should be free. I make a few bucks back on the old equipment I sold or was able to trade that coral overgrowing my tank for a new one but that can all be done on other free sites (reefcentral, marsh, craigslist,etc). I have a wife, 3 year old kid, 2 tanks, a house, an 85 rx7, a tortoise, 4 cats, etc.. all of which take up alot of my time and money so I don't really have the opportunity to attend any meetings or see guest speakers which is the sort of thing that I see dues paying for. Maast is one of the better boards out there but if the posts are controlled by the few (charter members) then to me this weakens one of the benefits of forum discussion.
I understand this place shouldn't be the responsibility of 100 or so people to finance but with banner ads and sponsors I don't see that the operating costs couldn't be recovered from commercial support. To me this is very much like the toll road issue we are all dealing with in S Texas. Costs go up so the knee jerk response it to hit up the people using a previously FREE service for money. Just like the roads if you toll MAAST I'm likely to go elsewhere....

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 03:01 PM

captexas

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 03:15 PM

You first talk about being cheated out of your $25, now you want to offer reduced membership and rewards for peoples "commitment"? Why not go that route to begin with instead of taking away a free website that has always been free and is what gets people in the door to begin with? Make the companies who put their banners on the website pay for the operational cost of it as every other site does. There are 33 sponsors listed on the sponsor page. Each one currently has to offer up $250 in goods a year, that's $8250 a year! How does that not pay for operating this site already and have money left over without even dipping into the charter members paid dues? THAT IS WHAT THE CHARTER MEMBERS SHOULD BE LOOKING INTO, not restricting access and turning this into a pay website. Make the sponsors pay $$$ for the website and offer goods for the member only raffles. Sounds like a very easy solution to me!

demodiki

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 03:18 PM

I was a charter member the first year I was into reefkeeping. Since the new year began, I have just been really busy with work and life and everything else. $25 is not a lot of money to me at this point in my life but...I don't really feel like I get much for my money. I do get some great advice here in these forums but there are many places to go for advice. I don't feel as if I should pay for advice anyway.

I have used the For Sale forums but I feel like I am getting a service...and I am paying for a service. So...$25...membership dues or a handful of snails, some polyfilter, etc...?

I do appreciate the meetings and the events that are put on by the BOD. Due to my schedule, however, I do not have the time to attend.

These are just my random thoughts at the moment...

miked78231

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 03:20 PM

ratboy and captexas well done. couldnt have set it better myself

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 03:42 PM

"I would not reap any of those benefits as I only participate online at this time. I don't care what people say, they don't pay up their $25 until it comes time for either being forced into it for a vote, participating in a members only raffle, or getting some kind of discount. Again, I don't go to meetings, don't participate in Member's Only raffles, didn't need a discounted admission for the 1 speaking engagement this club has put on, don't get a disount at any LFS(FinAddict takes care of me), don't need to post pictures in the image gallery, or any of the other numerous benefits the Charter Members already get."

sorry Chris.. i copyed your post.

this place started off free. and i'm not aliken change. i don't post often but i have noticed a change in the people on the forums and the responses to post. like i said.. i'll give $25 to keep all forums free for everyone, but not to become a charter member. i have no desire to become one at this point and may never. but i won't pay my $25 just so i can look at a useless F/S thread cuz no one can post in it but charter members.

like water people will find the path of least resistance. and charging a fee is a restricting factor. I want the BODs to look at the F/S forum.. how many of the post started are by web members. all those post/deals will be lost to other free forums if you restrict it. I could careless about having a place to host pictures,avitars,and looking a charter member only forum. i have other places i host my pictures for free. i don't need to pay for 2-3 megs of space or how ever much you get to do so.

and it does bother me that there is so much out there that can be used to generate $ that is not being explored before the "Tax" to use some forums was even brought up.

and yes i think this is a "Tax" to use those forums.

and your right... $25 is not much. i'm sure i've lost more then that in change waking down the street. but it's the fact that when you start restricting one more will come.

what's gonna happen next year when dues don't get payed??? what thread will be lost then???

Brett Wilson

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 03:57 PM

I'm one of the original members of this board and I use this board primarily for buying/selling, occasional advice searching/giving, and a group buy every once in a while.

The reason why I don't continue to pay charter fees is simply a matter of incentive.
I don't feel like i'd get a lot out of it, nor do I feel like I would be supporting a charity of some sort.

I don't spend enough annually at LFSs to make the discount worth it and I don't care to attend many meetings for several reasons.

If the for sale forum became locked to charter members only I would likely stop visiting this site, I dont buy or sell enough to warrant paying for a feature I feel should be free (like it is in many other places). I feel this move would turn away more members than it would gain by a long shot.

gcantu

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 04:32 PM

My thoughts are if you are going to lock users (Web Members) out of certain forums, then why don't you just lock them out of the whole website and go private. Make them pay dues like the porn websites do, "If you want to come in, then you need to pay your dues!". It would just be wrong because what would you be discussing or selling as a private entity that other FREE-viewing discussion boards aren't already discussing. Until recently, I found out that you (Charter Members) have a "Charter's only" forum. Who cares!! It only makes me feel like we are in HS all over again where you have the Free lunch kids and those that have to pay money to eat. Well guess what, we are all eating from the same plate in this case because the information is all the same for the taking. The only difference is some choose to pay and others don't. It's free people, on this website (maybe not for long) and others. I thought we were here to learn from each other. When I joined this site, it was nothing like this. I remember going to Texas Tropical and speaking to one of the employees that pointed me to this website. At the time I was very thankful because it was (1) local people, and (2) a FREE website to visit and gather all this needed (FREE) information on how to make our tanks thrive. I agree with "RATBOY" in the sense that you guys get some monies from the sponsors. However you manage it is up to you guys, that's why you are all on the BOD's. I never go to meetings because I don't feel I need to. I enjoy meeting people the way I have in the past, providing feedback through responses, purchases and sales to others. I don't want to sound like a negative person because I am not, I just don't think this is going to cause others to pay their dues. The reason I have not paid dues is because there is a wonderful thing that we as individuals can make and that is called "Choice". I choose not to because why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.
Thanks,
George

alton

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 04:33 PM

I wonder how much cash MARSH had to have to get MACNA to come to Houston? Also the goods that the sponsors give to MAAST are either given away at meetings or raffled away. I have seen a couple of raffles, I don't think anyone is getting rich off of them. I believe that most of MAAST will always remain free.

truck0000

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 04:48 PM

Who pays to feed the cow?

gcantu

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 04:56 PM

I don't know??? Why don't you ask the sponsors!!! I support them enough already when I visit their websites and shops like everyone else, I'm sure!!!!

captexas

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 05:06 PM

Alton, no one is implying anyone is getting rich off of money or goods for the club other than a few charter members seem to think web members are getting wealthy of using the site for free.

My last point was that with 33 sponsors giving $250 (currently in dry goods/gift certificates) that comes out to $8250 a year. Even Then, you throw in at least 130 paid members at $25/year that results in $3250 a year. Now there is a total of $11, 500 in cash and goods coming into this club every year. Yes, technically there are times when the raffles don't cover the cost of the goods given to the club. This is plenty of money to not only pay for this site, but pay for events and other benefits to the paid membership. So . . . why don't we change how the sponsorship is paid for?

If you changed the sponsorship to $125 in dry goods and $125 cash for banners on the website, that is $4125 that SHOULD be used towards paying for the operating cost of the website as they are the ones making money off of ALL of us. I can't imagine this site costing more than $2000 a year to run, but just in case I am wrong, lets say $2500 a year ($208.33 a month) to host this site. That would then leave $1625 a year in cash and $4125 in goods from sponsors and still the $3250 from paid membership is totally untouched! Therefore, the "Charter Members" aren't paying for the website and they don't somehow feel cheated out of their $25 investment that is done to get benefits from the club, not the website.

WOW, a pretty simple plan that not only solves paying for the website, but also prevents restricting the site or preventing people from enjoing ALL parts of it, just like members do on other similar sites. :)

z28pwr

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 05:08 PM

I paid for two years, but now I don't really see why I should pay again. I haven't been to a meeting in over a year and I rarely post on the forum. If I do it's mostly in the Lounge or in the For Sale section. The MAAST discount in stores was nice and all but most of the time the stores wouldn't give it to me since they already had a discount on the item I wanted or because it was drygoods hence it was useless to me.

We are not reefcentral and don't have the HUGE bandwith and server bill that reefcentral has, but yet we charge the same amount that a Premium Member charges at ReefCentral. Isn't the Sponsor money enough to pay for the bandwith bill?

Regarding Sponsors, I'm more then happy to spend my money with a sponsor then a non sponsor so that they can see a return on their investment and I don't know what the policy is currently on sponsors but If I had a store I would not be a sponsor if other stores could post in the Retailers Corner without paying.

NaCl_H2O

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 05:25 PM

Shark_Bait

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 05:30 PM

This is about the committment of members to MAASTs goals and objectives!

Then why are we trying to get more people to pay... If we keep going with our goal of education then we should be free. Are we trying to become a rich snooty private school?

captexas

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 05:34 PM

I'm glad to hear from more people on this issue, especially some of those that have been around awhile.

As I can't view the charter member forum or read what is going on, I can only speculate. But, it seems to me this sudden elitist mentality, this sudden urge to restrict the forums from the public and to try to force people to pay membership dues has been started by people who haven't been around that long. People that either forgot or don't know what MAAST is really about or what it was started for. Yes, times and situations change, but what has really changed here that deems it necessary to start restricting the site when there is already restrictions that separate paid members from non paying members? Even if there were needs to do so, how is restricting the For Sale section really solve anything? Give me a break!

As George mentioned above, if you have that kind of mentality, that cutting off the web members will help, then why not restrict the entire site?

Oh wait, I already know the answer to that. Closing off the entire site to charter members only means that you will alienate 93% of the users of this site (over 1800 registers users, only 130 paid members). It means losing out on 93% of the content on this site, 93% of the information being exhanged, 93% of the items that Charter members have available to buy in the For Sale forums. This club will lose 93% of what makes up MAAST. Oh, don't forget that the sponsors who give over $8250 a year in dry goods/services to this club, goods and services that with the changes in raffles the Charter members reap the main benefit of, will all disappear! Why would sponsors want to keep supporting a site that just kicked out 93% of it's possible customers? Why give $250 in goods to a club that went from 1800 members to 130 members? That is where this is all going with the attitude some people seem to have here.

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 05:37 PM

[quote=NaCl_H2O]This is about the committment of members to MAASTs goals and objectives!

and what is this goal... there are web members asking about meeting min. and so forth... but charter members are saying web memebers had no business with the info... how are web members to know what the goals/objectives are?

NaCl_H2O

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 05:53 PM

... how are web members to know what the goals/objectives are?

Our Purpose:
1. Encourage the growth of the marine aquarium hobby in South Texas;
2. Educate and inform members and the public about care, keeping and propagation of marine invertebrates and fish;
3. Prevent abuse to marine animals in general, and to conserve the marine environment by promoting intelligent, planned reef management systems;
4. Promote higher standards of health and care provided by local commercial outlets;
5. Organize workshops, seminars and discussions related to all aspects of the hobby;
6. Raise and generate funds and create financial resources to meet these goals; and
7. Coordinate with and support similar societies devoted to like-minded interests.

captexas

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 05:58 PM

Steve, you say it's not about money, but almost everyone of the charter members who have chimed in push the money issue. They somehow feel cheated by webmembers who use this site. Even some of your BODs are blasting non paying members for this. All of them are wanting more people to join and pay $$$. Actually, from their attitudes, I think they could care less if we joined or participated, they just want us to pay for the website that should be paid for through sponsorship.

If the charter membership is so concerned about increasing the "Web/Charter" ratio, how in the heck does restricting forums improve that? I think it is obvious through all the post in this thread, the previous one and the Web Member Only thread in the General Forum that it is not going to entice anyone to suddenly pay up, but it will actually push away more people. Show me some logic in how restricting the for sale forum actually helps the issue?

Also, if the Charter members care so much about increasing membership and not $$$, what else are they looking at to do so besides cutting the 1 benefit web members have, free access to a free site? Why hasn't there been any real study been done to find out why people don't join? Why hasn't any real study been done to find out what would get people to change their minds? All you have done is ask the charter members who have already found a reason or benefit to pay up. If that is the only people you talk to, then of course you will be stuck with the same number of members.

I mean, when Ford wants to increase their market/sales, they don't go out and talk to people that already own a Ford, they look at what else people are buying and research WHY. Also, they don't go restrict people from participating or getting info on their cars because they don't already own one. Ford spends money to advertise, to get the word out they have good products, to entice people to buy their cars, to spend money, and to basically become a paying Ford member. Now, when you do buy that car from them, part of that price covers all that advertising, providing free info to non Ford owners, etc., etc.

Bill S

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:01 PM

Hey folks, I just want you to know that this is great! Chris - MAN you are wound up on this - the Club needs you! I'm one of the ones that proposed closing the posting of an ad in the "For Sale" section - I administer a couple of sites where we see folks register, just to sell something. And now that I think about it, that's probably not as likely here...

NaCl_H2O

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:01 PM

Ford, your are comparing us to FORD ... that was really a low blow :P

captexas

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:17 PM

Ok, from the other thread, I was informed by the club President that this is not a money issue, that it is all about increasing the Charter/Web meber ratio. Ok then, so why are they planning to restrict the only thing that web members are here for, a great free website? How does that help increase membership? More importantly, if this issue is so important, the desire to increase membership, how come the club hasn't done any research on why web members don't join? Why is it that without doing anything else, they just wanted to start slowly preventing webmembers from using the site?

Burying the announcement of restricting parts of this site to 93% of the users in some Web Site Down announcement that few will see doesn't show me that the club really cares too much about increasing membership. I mean, it must have been some special research to come up with the idea that restricting the website which has been free since the beginning will somehow boost membership.

Why is it that Peter (Ping), a charter member, started this thread of asking what would make web members consider paying for membership when that should have been done by the President or other members of the BOD? And just as important, why wasn't this asked before they tried to take take these actions? To a web member, how am I to take that? How is that supposed to make me want to suddenly join?

cpreefguy

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:20 PM

Ford, your are comparing us to FORD ... that was really a low blow :P
Now thats going too far! :lol

captexas

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:26 PM

LOL, sorry, that just popped into my head. As someone who has owned 3 Fords, 2 Chevys and drive a Chevy van for work I'm impartial, so no bad comparison meant! lol :D

don-n-sa

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:29 PM

Actually Chris, Ford does continue to market to current Ford Owners...besides my first vehicle (Chevy) all of my purchases have been from Ford and I continually get surveys and calls about ways to keep me as a Ford owner.

Bill S

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:32 PM

I'm guessing it's because there was a suggestion on the Charter Forum to ASK folks what it would take to join - I don't remember if it was Ping, but I happened to think it was a great idea. Instead of everyone guessing, why not ask?

Look folks, as far as I can tell, there's no great conspiracy going on here - give the club credit, it's OPENLY discussing a pretty important issue.

On the tech front: Also, I'm a tech guy too - I've been recommending switching software since I joined - and yes, vBulletin and the associated parts, plus the costs to convert, TAKE MONEY. With the increasing number of users, the use of higher res photos, the monthly fee goes up too - AND, as an administrator of 2 forums, when things get bigger, crashes are not well taken by the users - so you start looking at ISPs with redundant remote servers, etc. We lost some pix on one site - MAN people screamed... What I'm saying is that this beast has grown beyond the "garage-server" - and there's a significant cost associated with that.

captexas

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:36 PM

Bill - lol, thanks. I do tend to get a bit wound up on issues I feel strongly about, just ask around the BOD! lmao I too am glad we are all able to openly discuss this issue now. I agree the Charter members have more say so in the matter, but I think as a decision like this affects many, many more people than what comprises that small group that it should be discussed with the people that it will impact, the people that really help make this site what it is. It not only impacts the current membership, but the future growth of this club.

captexas

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:44 PM

Sure, that is called owner retention. They don't want to lose what they have and at the same time they want to increase sales which most American made companies are failing to do because they limited themselves to new ideas, thought they were better than the others, and wasted money instead of finding ways to better spend it. At times, that kind of sounds like what has happened here. In a way, this club is a product and it cost $25 a year to buy. Now if after awhile a person doesn't think it's worth the investment for whatever reasons or if they find a better deal elsewhere, they will leave. There is plenty of competition out there with other sites, most of which are at no cost to participate. If MAAST is having a hard time increasing sales, then maybe it needs to open up to more/new ideas, see why other sites operate and sell better, and learn to manage its money more effectively on servers/software and member benefits for the future. Make it worthwhile for more people to join, not regress and push people away.

NaCl_H2O

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:49 PM

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:56 PM

captexas

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:56 PM

Actually, I think Chris is on a secret mission this week to get his post count above Joshua's

LOL, now we all know that is humanly impossible. I have yet to figure out how anyone with a full time job, a wife and three energetic young sons has that much time to spend on the computer! I think Josh has a robot or a trained monkey that sits at his computer all day to get that many posts! lol :D :P

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 06:58 PM

Bill - lol, thanks. I do tend to get a bit wound up on issues I feel strongly about, just ask around the BOD!
Actually, I think Chris is on a secret mission this week to get his post count above Joshua's :P ;)

actualy that's what my goal is.... :lol

been here for 2 years with only 270 post.. and most of them in the last 3 days.

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 07:07 PM

you know.... i honestly think that if the club needed suport to do some upgrades to the forum and "Openly" asked for financial "Help". this could have been avoided. i think the approch was all wrong to let web members wake up one day to find they have been restricted from posting was a poor choice. If this is the case. i'll be glad to donate to that fund. but i think only what's needed needs to be collected. we all benefit from this site. web members and charters alike. and i don't really think anyone would have had a problem donating to that fund.

If this is the real reason for all this.... i'll be the first to donate $100 to the fund.. i don't want to be a charter member. but i want the forum to work at it's best and many others do.

i just didn't (don't) like the approch that was taken to ask for it.

Troy

Jynxgirl

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 07:10 PM

I have now been on the site a little over 2 months. also am pretty far from San Antonio. I have been watching this site and the dallas one and the houston one. I have utilized this board though a great deal. I really like it. It's got a great group of people and its not just the same people talking back and forth to each other. Its alot of great discussions and alot of great information.

Am I going to get a membership? Probably. Why? Because of the discounts. Nothing else. I am new and like most people, am not into the club and promoting and growing the club. I am at the time, interested in my little reef sitting in my living room. If I knew that I could have gotten discounts at the LFS, I would have joined when I first started. I would have saved a ton of money. Now, getting close the the 1000$ mark, that would have saved me a nice chunk of change, but I am pretty much just buying stuff locally or through people at this point. I wish I had actually read what getting a membership got me. DISCOUNT should be in big letters! I guess I just missed that part. :angry

This is an expensive hobby and 25$ here $15 there, it adds up. I am not going to join something right away. I want to see if I am going to continue to use it. Jury is still out. I will see in a few more months if this is going to be a site I will continually go to.

I asked about a membership for my spouse, no discount. I don't understand this one at all. If a extra membership for the spouse was 10$, maybe a few people would go ahead and get them one as well but paying 25$ for each membership. The only reason to have a membership to me is for the discount. I guess only one of us will ever go to buy stuff at the LFS's. So, instead of getting 25$ plus a ten dollar or so spouse membership (maybe only having one vote or things like that could be decided), if and when I join, it will be 25$.

My point, :D I do have one. I will not though be pushed to join because I can not go to some areas of the site. I can go to a site that is visited by pretty much the same people, where there are no restrictions.

Joining is for very different reasons then the website.

My .02.

Jill

don-n-sa

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 07:14 PM

Great Post Jill!

Honest and to the point... :)

I really like the idea of discouting spouses...I agree you would get more membership that way.

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 07:15 PM

When I read post about why people pay to be apart of Maast they say that they wanted to support the club and have got alot out of it. They wanted to give back.
When I read this thread it seems to me that people are only concerned about what they can get out of the site. Seems some what selfish to me, only an opinion though. Is everyones concern the forsale forumn being locked only?
1800 members and 130 charter members. As is the case often times in this country a few people are carrying alot. I am not elitist at all and respect everyones right to voice an opinion. If you dont want to pay then dont pay. The BOD is just trying to get some more envolment into the site. If you become a charter member chances are you will take a bigger interest in the site and become invested in its future.
This thread was started to see what would entice web members to join. any thoughts along these line would help.
Thank You

i don't think anyone realy has a problem with "giving back".. i think it's all the approch that was taken to ask everyone to give back

OOO.. and i'm working on that post count realy hard today. :P

Triggerman

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 07:18 PM

hey chris,

i believe i got it wrong as well...i thought alot of this debate going on with threads everywhere and getting harder to follow was about money. with the end outcome being if we don't get enough paying charter members then there won't be enough financial capabilities for maast to survive.

so in the charter forum i raised questions about sponsorship rules because i wasn't clear about them. i was going to make some of the same suggestions regarding donated goods, but things don't seem to be about money anymore. it seems to me the BOD is wanting to weed out all the rift raft so to speak.

ray

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 07:25 PM

hey chris,

i was going to make some of the same suggestions regarding donated goods, but things don't seem to be about money anymore. it seems to me the BOD is wanting to weed out all the rift raft so to speak.

ray

if your post is true.... then that sucks

Triggerman

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 07:31 PM

i could be reading between the lines. i'm with the majority here, i think restrictions will be bad for maast.

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 07:34 PM

WoooW.. look what Marsh is doing

http://www.marshreef.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12624

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 07:36 PM

and this...

http://www.marshreef.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12373

SLAYCHILD

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 07:45 PM

Its seems to me that everyone keeps getting off subject. I do understand what all the Web Members are saying because im one of them. But for you guys who say that they dont want to pay the $25 for the year. I say why not. Its to help this club that all of us love so much. It's kinda like living at your mommy and daddy's house with out helping pay rent. We all come to this site to talk to people who have the same hobby as each other. Take your chances walking down the road, by your house and knocking on doors to get help. And see where that gets you. What im trying to say is that if you are really into this hobby. Why not help the BOD out and pay the $25. Also this goes to the BOD. Why didn't you just tell us what is going on and ask for the help. I know everyone would do what they could. Even if it came to joining the club. Now on the next meeting. Lets have a BBQ, LOL

NaCl_H2O

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 08:02 PM

and this ...
http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16428

NaCl_H2O

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 08:04 PM

And the MACNA ticket give away ... oh yea, that was for Charter members!

Jynxgirl

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 08:08 PM

I guess, someone should just flatly say.. Is the website self supporting or not? Is there a money problem?

First one, well, I dont think there is as I have been told such so ...

If the answer is no to the last question, then I think there should be Web Memberships of like five dollars or something to make it self supporting. I really think though that the sponsors and the banner adds should more then make up for this and it should be near self supporting. They are getting one heck of a bargain. I look on the retailers page all the time to see what someone has gotten in. I figured they would be paying in cash for sponsoring the site. I think I know have it that, they donate and the 'stuff' is raffled off making money off the sponsors? Sponsors should be throwing in little 20$ gift certificates all the time anyhow for the meetings. Its just good for business. I won an item and spent money from the company that otherwise I wouldnt have. It gets their name out there. Lets be honest. If someone gives one of us a 30$ gift certificate and we go to use that, most of us are walking out with a few extra things. It just seems to be the nature of the saltwater hobby :D They do not loose money by giving out a few gift certificates. They should really be stepping up and actually sponsoring the site.

As far as is the club profitable, I was told the website is not the club but a free information site for everyone in the hobby and it wasn't one in the same?

This wanting to build up and become bigger, bigger, bigger... is this something new? I am new so I don't know.

Jill

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 08:08 PM

i guess i never saw that... i wonder how many others didn't??

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 08:09 PM

And the MACNA ticket give away ... oh yea, that was for Charter members!

ooo... your right Charter members.
:D

TroyPham

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 08:15 PM

As far as is the club profitable, I was told the website is not the club but a free information site for everyone in the hobby and it wasn't one in the same?

Jill

Jill.... thats what everyone thought..

NaCl_H2O

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 08:22 PM

i guess i never saw that... i wonder how many others didn't??
Can't really say, but it was a sticky in the Gen forum for months and we think contributed a great deal to renewals & memberships for 2006.

polyniakB

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 09:33 PM

I joined and paid my dues last year and now move out of state. So I really have no interest in sending $25.00.

That being said love this site. I think the best way to fund the site is with sponsors. This site has 1,800 plus users and most of them should be from the state of Texas. If does not seem like a hard sell to compaines. Hit them for $50.00 per month. Get just 10 new sponsors and that is $500.00 per month and $6000.00 per year. To get that same $6000.00 you need to get dues paid from 240 people. The sponsor method is less work. You can make it a contest between members to see who can get the most sponsors.

Once again that is only 10 bussiness at $50.00 per month to make up for 240 people.

Sponsors do not need to be aquatic related they can be anything. Make sure you visit these sponsors and let them know you found them because of the site and they will stay.

Respectfully,

Bill :D

matt

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 09:59 PM

Oh yeah, one other thing. I believe that restricting the website access in any way would be a very serious mistake. Membership should be something that is freely given in support of the organization and it's events. More and better events would attract new members.

subber

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 10:17 PM

From your last entry, says it all. Marsh doesn't limit their site to get more members, it uses goodies and by the other entries, is trying to get other sponsors to finance their site. Hmmmmmmmmmm what a concept. Maast does the same type giveaway to promote membership but unlike Marsh, then wants to kill off the actual majority on the site for the few instead of finding alternative methods to creat more cash flow. Try to get the milk from this cow without killing it. It works for others!!

NaCl_H2O

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 11:09 PM

I think what many people fail to realize is the fact that there's a LOT more depth to MAAST than just the website.

Thanks Josh! I couldn't have come up with a more appropriate one-liner, and I have tried!

matt

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 11:19 PM

I think what many people fail to realize is the fact that there's a LOT more depth to MAAST than just the website.

Yep...let's get a few more events happening to remind them!

NaCl_H2O

Wed, 5th Apr 2006, 11:30 PM

I think what many people fail to realize is the fact that there's a LOT more depth to MAAST than just the website.

Yep...let's get a few more events happening to remind them!
Now we are getting closer!
- Events require Volunteers
- Volunteers come from committed members
- Members that support MAAST with a token fee are more likely to be committed members
- The fees help to fund these added benefits
- The added benefits result in more committed members
- These committed members deserve some additional benefits over those that simply chose to utilze the website

"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life."

Some members will fish, and some will eat - just trying to get a few more to go buy a fishing pole ;)

captexas

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 06:25 AM

Joshua wrote:
I think what many people fail to realize is the fact that there's a LOT more depth to MAAST than just the website.

Well then maybe it's MAAST's responsibility to show that to the people who have chosen not to pay for membership. You can just sit there and think that because 130 people choose to do so, that everyone else should automatically join. Prove to them that is it worth it, that there is more to MAAST than the website. Do things to get people involved voluntarily, don't force people out by restricting things. Basically, as it is now, people will only join if they want to join, so make more people want to join! Restricting the website is not going to do that and anyone who thinks so is wrong.

When I was around in the beginning of this club forming, helping write the club bylaws as a member of the first BOD, we saw the site being separate from the Club. Afterall, this site was born first, before MAAST the Club, not vice versa. We saw the site as what gets people in the door and will hopefully get them interested in participating in the Club and it's monthly meetings. While it is owned and managed by the Club, this site was to remain free to users as seen in the bylaws description of levels of membership. No where does it say you must pay $25 to use this site, no where does it say you have to be a paid member post items for sale (unless you are some business entity), no where does it say a Charter member has more rights on the website than a Web member. Why? Because we wanted to keep the site free, open to anyone who wanted to share in our great hobby that brought us all together in this one place.

This shouldn't be a money issue as there are plenty of ways to pay for the operation of this site through sponsorship money. You want to increase membership, then find ways to improve MAAST the Club. Find ways to put on more events, more speakers, more benefits for paying members so that others will see the value. If there is a lot more depth to this Club than just the website, then show that. This website was intended to be free, always has been, and always should stay that way. You want to increase membership then start a membership drive. Restricting the website will result in a membership drive of sort, but not the kind you want as it will be driving members elsewhere.

captexas

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 07:19 AM

Jeff - It's not that hard. Sponsors currently give $250 in dry goods or gift certificates for one year. How hard is it to split that amount up in cash and goods, with the cash used to pay for the site and the goods still used at Member Only raffles? My idea on the other thread was to split the amount in half, $125 in cash and $125 in dry goods. With 33 sponsors currently, that would result in $4125 that could be used to pay for the site and the remaining cash used for other things. Even if you made the split a little less, say $100 cash and $150 in goods, then that's still $3300 for the site operation costs! How hard is that? How are there drawbacks when all of the similar sites to MAAST use sponsorships to pay for the site either through flat fees or per hit charges?

Anyways, supposedly this isn't about money although that seems to be what keeps coming up. It is supposed to be about increasing membership.

miked78231

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 08:05 AM

i propose a walk out. :P

gcantu

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 08:15 AM

Now we are getting closer!
- Events require Volunteers

I am sure that in the past not all Charter members have volunteered to help out with the meetings you have held. I am sure there are some web members out there that can say they have helped out in some way.

- Volunteers come from committed members

By "committed", do you mean to the hobby or to the club?? If commitment is measured by "paying dues", then something is wrong here because I can certainly say that I have volunteered to do things for other members, "Charter Members", and never felt the need to be a paying member.

- Members that support MAAST with a token fee are more likely to be committed members

Not true!! It could also mean that they get special "access" to other links on this website.

- The fees help to fund these added benefits

What benefits??

- The added benefits result in more committed members

Again, please clarify???

- These committed members deserve some additional benefits over those that simply chose to utilze the website

There's that word again, "committed".....
Where do the benefits get rewarded? On the website or at the meetings? If I was to join then I would prefer the "benefits" to be rewarded at the meetings and not on the website. Everyone has access to the website, awesome, but not all people have the ability to make it to the meetings, so if by "committed" you mean those that attend the meetings and outside functions, then reward them there.

Respectfully,
George

captexas

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 08:15 AM

Wow, when you combine the two threads in the Announcement Forum and this one here, there are 13 pages of discussion on this issue!

captexas

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 08:24 AM

"Charter" members do not always equal "committed" members unless you take it that they are committed to getting something for their $25. Also, "Charter" members seldom result in volunteers or "committed" members that will actually work to keep this club going. If what Steve said is so true, then why has it been so hard to find people other than the usual maybe 10 to actually help out, to do the actual leg work involved in running the club? Why is it that so many people who do say they want to participate, that they do want to help fizzle out in the end? Why have several BODs who volunteered to help manage the club and get things done been ousted due to them failing to even appear at BOD meetings? It's always been the same small group of people that truly participate and put effort into keeping this club afloat so the "charter members = committed member" or "committed members are only charter members" idea is not completely true.

Chris

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 08:29 AM

GaryP

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 08:56 AM

I'm not really going to get into the discussion here but I did think I would mention some of the "special event" things MAAST is either planning or actively working on now. There seems to be a lot of questions about "What Events?"

1. The Port A trip in conjunction with MARSH. We've got a behind the scenes tour of the Texas State Aquarium lined up as part of that event. We are also working on trying to get the faculty and students of the UT Marine Science Institute involved. We're coordinating this with Bigbird123 who is a member of both MARSH and MAAST and is generously hosting the event.

2. A MAAST family day at the SA zoo, including a behind the scenes tour of the aquatics areas. We would like for this to be the start of some sort of cooperative program between the zoo's aquatic dept. and MAAST to help them out. I've already met with the aquatic curator about this. Keep an eye out for an announcement on this soon.

3. Another Paletta type speaker event for later this year. The original plan was for two this year, but for reasons that Steve mentioned earlier there just hasn't been enough manpower to get that accomplished. Our plan is go ahead and set up speakers in advance for the next couple of years so that we can do this on a regular basis. Many of the best speakers such as Anthony Calfo have speaking schedules that are filled far in advance and require a lot of advance planning.

4. A speaker exchange program with MARSH to get some of their folks to come over to our meetings and provide some "fresh blood" for the meetings.

5. A mentor program for hobby newbies.

6. An "Introduction to Salt Water Aquariums" half day seminar for newbies and folks that are just at the curious stage about the hobby. We want to try to reach out to folks that are curious about the hobby but may feel intimidated and don't know where to start. This program would include some "free" advertising on radio and newspapers as well as working with the LFS in the area to reach out to these sorts of folks. We also want to try to get the word out to kids through the schools and groups like scouts and get them involved.

7. A MAAST day at the IMAX to see one of the reef type IMAX movies. We did this last year and it was very successful and it has been suggested we do it again. Again, keep an eye out for an announcement. We'll get some sort of group discount organized for this.

Will we get all of these things done this year? Its doubtful, but I feel its better to plan for more then less. To be honest, its going to more manpower then we have available to get them done. These are the types of things Steve mentioned that require "committed" members. He wasn't referring to giving up a couple of hours to help move a tank. In the past the BOD has handled these types of projects on their own. In reality a few key BOD have done it on their own. For MAAST to move up to the next level its going to require more then just the BOD to get it done.

The simple fact is that for various reasons a lot of charters are not able to devote the time to help out with these kinds of projects. If a web member would like to jump in and help out, I'm sure their help would be appreciated. I haven't seen that happen, but that's not to say it hasn't in the past, or won't in the future. Maybe its our fault that we simply haven't asked the web members. The feeling has been that most web members weren't "committed" enough to the club to help out. Like I said, I could be proven wrong. What I do know, is that those that have volunteered to help have been from among the charter members. Folks like JimD, JimNorris, Ed, Hobogato, hammondeggae, Ram Puppy, and many others that I'm probably forgetting (and to whom I apologize) have been a lot of help to the committees.

OK, sorry for the interruption. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Brett Wilson

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 09:10 AM

I think what many people fail to realize is the fact that there's a LOT more depth to MAAST than just the website.

And that is what dues are for, but what the BOD needs to realize is that not everyone wants to partake in such. Some people just want the site for what it is at face value, another reef website (that is thankfully local, and significantly smaller than RC).

.. and if that person wants more from their website at any particular time (like meetings, speakers, etc), that would be a great time to financially support it.

gcantu

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 10:06 AM

It's almost like a fraternity/Sorority.
In college you go to study and broaden your horizons. On the internet, you pay for some sort of network connection (ie. RR, SBC, AOL), visit the MAAST "website" or any other "Free" website, and try and to take in all the valuable information you can to help your tanks flourish.

While in college, you have the "choice" of joining a fraternity/sorority for a "fee" and partaking in all the activities/benefits that those privately funded clubs have to offer. On the MAAST website, you have the "choice" of joining the "Club" and reaping those "benefits" as well.

The website is going to benefit no matter what, because of all the wonderful sponsors that contribute to its site. But if you want the club to flourish, then yes, you need to increase enrollment. I can tell that there is a growing demand from those out of the SA/Austin area that would like to "benefit" in some form or other, but if you continue to charge them the same dues without any actual incentive then your numbers will not grow. Why, becuase with increasing gas prices, the mere trip alone will take away from their pockets the very means that you are trying to get into the clubs account. Why not, like others have mentioned, offer membership discounts to those that live outside a certain geographical area, or family memberships, becuase we all know that not everyone on this site is single or married without children. From some of the pics on this site you can already tell that the children of others will eventually be members just by all the attention they give to their parents tanks. I am sure you can also see how outside members (I mean from other cities outside SA and from within as well) have begun to form their own reef group forums.
Don't confuse the two, (the website and the club), because you can easily drive them, (MEMBERS), away and have you all to thank for its demise. Please think before you act or it can ruin you as both a club and a website.

Respectfully,
George

Ram_Puppy

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 10:27 AM

those are both excellent ideas that MARSH has had.

I guess I just have a really hard time seeing how 25 bucks is a great deal of money. it's one less date w/ my wife a year. 5 less trips to mcdonalds to expand my gut, etc. etc... and that is assuming I don't get any discounts.

I support MAAST because I believe it has good goals, I think it is still an infant organizaiton and like all new things, it goes through it's rough spots. I believe it will eventually grow past that into something great, but it has to have funding in the meain time. I don't get any additional benefit from being a MAAST member. I hardly use the charter membership forum, and as far as discounts, I only go to one store, and I am allready well taken care of there.

I think people need to stop looking at what MAAST can provide them in terms of cash incentives, and thing about what MAAST can do in the future. how awesome would it be to have MACNA come here? I have never been to one, hopefully I can go to the one in houston this year, but who knows...

Perhaps the MAAST board of directors needs to extend it's hands out to some of the other local aquarium/pond hobby groups like the Texas Koi Society and ask them to show us their organization so we can adjust ours to be more like theirs.

I have mixed feelings about restricting site access. On one hand I think no, we should not change, but on the other hand I see the BOD practicaly shoving carrots down peoples throats (carrots denote attractors) and people still don't get it, this club, not just the website, needs support, and needs to grow financially if it is ever going to really 'get there', and this something for nothing mentality I just don't understand.

If MAAST has helped you, and you have it in your power, you should help MAAST. this is a simple golden rule / karma thing. not everything is a dollars and cents issue.

TroyPham

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 10:40 AM

i dont think there's any reason that would make me join... i don't feel the need to be a charter member. now if you want me to donate... i will.. but i won't join! thats why i want the site to stay free. i'm sure there are others that feel as i do.. maybe they are to busy to be charter members and don't feel they can dedicate time to the club but just want to be web members like myself. or any other personal reason. if you block sites there will be no reason for people like myself to come to the forum any longer.

TroyPham

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 10:43 AM

also... i posted a link in the debat thread.... where Marsh has opened banner adds to other type of businesses... i'll be glad to put up my business banner to help cost.

TroyPham

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 10:51 AM

Ram.. it has always been said the the forum and the club are seperate.

Chris

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:01 AM

There is plenty of competition out there with other sites, most of which are at no cost to participate. If MAAST is having a hard time increasing sales, then maybe it needs to open up to more/new ideas, see why other sites operate and sell better, and learn to manage its money more effectively on servers/software and member benefits for the future.

Just to open up a whole other can of worms here (mostly because I find your arguments to be entertaining with the way you stretch them :D)....

There are no other sites quite like MAAST. Sure, you have other hobby-related websites like RC, Reefs.org and various others; most of which are commercial endeavors.

You also see other clubs, like MARSH & Dallas and many many more. Those first few big sites are in a larger league than those smaller club sites. Those smaller club sites aren't quite as active as we are. MARSH is operating with the same hosting company MAAST is, utilizing nearly identical software but on a lower-tiered hosting plan.

MAAST is exceeding resources due to the number concurrent connections (# of people browsing at the same time) to the site, hense the slow down at times. We are the leader of the pack when it comes to local club websites. There isn't another that maintains the amount of activity as we do anywhere in the hobby, AFAIK. So when you make your vitrolic remarks about why we're doing everything wrong and how everyone else is doing everything right, please take into consideration that we're also having to build our own bridges with no other clubs having quite the same issues we have to deal with.

NaCl_H2O

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:05 AM

Ram.. it has always been said the the forum and the club are seperate.
Who ever said that - that is ludicrous! By definition, they are inseparable!

Chris

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:07 AM

Ram.. it has always been said the the forum and the club are seperate.

This forum is the staple communication tool and face of this club. The website is owned and operated by MAAST. How do you believe them to be seperate entities?

PeeperKeeper

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:30 AM

I just discovered MAAST a month or two ago. I do intend to become a charter member, whether I plan to go to meetings and functions or not. I believe in supporting organizations that I find useful.

That said, I do think it would be a mistake to start locking forums to non-paying members because that would decrease the value of the forums themselves (even to the paying members) by limiting the knowledge base you can draw from. If I have a problem with my tank, and there's ANYONE out there who can help me, I don't want them to be unable to post an answer to my question just because they aren't a paying member. If I were already a paying member and the decision was made to limit access to forums, I would feel that I had been ripped off because I paid for access to a broader group of people.

As for the "politics" that I've seen commented on in this thread referred to as "so much turmoil lately", let me tell you that stuff goes on with every message board, I think. I am currently a mod on a sugar glider website and we struggle with the same stuff all the time. Actually, it seems worse on the glider board than it is here. That's probably either because I don't know you guys well enough to be able to pick up on the subtleties, or because the glider board is a MUCH higher percentage of women and I openly admit that we tend to be much more gossipy/sensitive/emotional (insert adjective of your choice, but hey! be nice).

Bug_Power

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:40 AM

On the tech front: Also, I'm a tech guy too - I've been recommending switching software since I joined - and yes, vBulletin and the associated parts, plus the costs to convert, TAKE MONEY. With the increasing number of users, the use of higher res photos, the monthly fee goes up too - AND, as an administrator of 2 forums, when things get bigger, crashes are not well taken by the users - so you start looking at ISPs with redundant remote servers, etc. We lost some pix on one site - MAN people screamed... What I'm saying is that this beast has grown beyond the "garage-server" - and there's a significant cost associated with that.
bstreep, as a techie you should know that unless the photos are hosted by MAAST (which is a horrible idea for any forum to host photo's, i'll get to that later) I could post a 200meg picture on my server, post it on this forum, and it would impact the server 0%. For some of you guys a bit less techincally inclined let me give you a analogy to help explain how photos and video's work here on the web. If I posted that 200meg picture as described above in my post, the picture is store on another server photoshack for instance. The MAAST server simply is a software program that stores text...this text tells your browser how to make the page look. Now instead of sending th image from the MAAST server. It sends a shopping list of things to get to make the site look as we see it. So just as you have to get pasta from the local italian shop, and fresh herbs from the outdoor market....the server tells YOUR computer to go to Photobucket or imageshack for one picture, reefcentral for another picture and vice versa until this pasta dish we call MAAST is served up on your browser. So for that 200 meg picture the server just had to produce " <'img src="http://www.bigpictures.com/200megpicture.jpg"> Less the 1k of text. Video links work the exact same way. So I can't see how picture intense threads have ANY effect on the site.

Now let's dicuss the topic of photohosting on the site. I heard a saying once that it's better to do one thing right, then a lot of things poorly. I think if the MAAST website sticks to what thier core needs are and make those streamline and fluff free, this website will benefit from it. When you start adding options like photos, video's and other "features" the ramifications need to be carefully considered. Does MAAST really need a "store" when there are for sale forums that could be sticked? Does MAAST REALLY need a calendar module, or can that be kept in the announcments section? A new's module...can't that simply be a sticky somewhere?

I don't really care for this current software package, but I'd rather not see any of the above features on the new site. It's getting your hands in to many things. Do one thing, do it right, and the only bandwidth problems you will have is when you've got 100 online users with active sessions.

Now to answer the question at had....what would it take to get me to pony of for membership...simple. If you where a resturant and wanted to grown in a new town, would you simply start selling gift certificates in that town? Would you think customers would drive 2.5+ hours to visit your business? I think any resonable person would realize you have to establish a LOCAL presence to attract members. This means MAAST has to branch out from your home city and have some meetings more regularly in cities they wish to grow in. Some of the LFS here don't know what MAAST is, HOWEVER are seminar presenters for MARSH? I mentioned MAAST to them which seems about 2 hours closer and they had no idea who I was talking about. This guy regularly drives to Austin and SA to setup tanks for customers. My suggestions are to create a relationship with my LFS's here in town, organize MAAST events which include them. Ask them for intellectual contributions like, skimmer DIY's, Coral Prop, Fish diseases. Do they have any old gear they don't need? Ask them to donate, sell it on the forums. You just have to engague them and make a working relationship. Eventually discounts and things will fallow, as well as referrals to MAAST from thier stores. Ok that's my $.02 for today.

Isis

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:45 AM

I wonder how much cash MARSH had to have to get MACNA to come to Houston? If you are referring to our funds at the time of bidding last year, we had somewhere around $4k, maybe closer to $6K. Having a significant bank account allows for you to prepare and purchase advertisment items prior to the beginning of your one year count down, that is at the MACNA prior to yours where you advertise.

Bug_Power

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 11:47 AM

Jynxgirl wrote:

As far as is the club profitable, I was told the website is not the club but a free information site for everyone in the hobby and it wasn't one in the same?

Jill

I would see the website as more of a MARKETING tool for the club more then anything. Imagine how many FEWER members you would have if the website didn't exist?

Isis

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 12:02 PM

WoooW.. look what Marsh is doing

http://www.marshreef.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12624Oh yeah, I forgot about that. We didn't have much response to it from others, but I have bumped to see if it gets any new response.

Thanks for the reminder! :P

Isis

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 12:04 PM

and this...

http://www.marshreef.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12373Oooo ... that was a good success. It also helps to lessen the mad rush of renewals and new memberships just before the Feb meeting where elections happen. I suppose we will be doing that again this year, but hopefully with nice funds in the bank after MACNA. ;)

miked78231

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 12:28 PM

its obvious that people find this site very useful and learn so much. its great to have a local site like this to where you can solve your problems, make friends, buy, sell ext. i really dont see why people cant just pay the 25.00 for somthing that is more then useful. if i, the village idiot or the MAAST idiot :D can pay 25.00, which i will be, then any of you can do the same. come on, its only 25.00. i would like to know where all this money does goto though. if people dont want to pay then thats understandable. i dont see how your going to force that on anyone. locking up certain forums sounds childish to me. well thats all i got to say.

SaltyJim

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 01:22 PM

Okay, my turn to chime in on something that has not been brought up yet.

We all know the benefits that we can get from a paid membership (or should know after reading both of the threads), but my problem is with the length of membership. I addressed this issue with Misti when she was President, but that never went anywhere :roll . Now, correct me if I am wrong, but when a web member decides to cough up the $25 to become a Charter member in July, that gives said member a whopping 6 months of benefits, (half of what is advertised) and then they are asked to renew their membership to continue "reaping the rewards". Yearly membership needs to be based on payment date, and not on the calendar year...or pro-rate the memberships. That will give the new visitors to this site an incentive to join early, rather than wait for the calendar year to roll around.

That's how I look at it...if I don't pay for my membership in January, then I don't get my full 12 months of discounts etc.

falcondob

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 01:29 PM

I agree totally. That current method is not equitable.

I will propose to the Board that dues be prorated to the nearest whole month.

Examples:
Joe joins MAAST on November 14, he pays 2/12 of the $25 and then $25 on January 1.
Bill joins on November 15, he pays 1/12 of the $25 and then $25 on January 1.
Anyone who joins after December 15, pays nothing until January 1.
I will even go so far as to say that anyone joining after November 1, can wait until January 1 and pay the prorated amount and the new year amount at the same time.

How does that sound?

SaltyJim

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 01:48 PM

Why not just put validity dates on the membership card. I know that the forum software does/will have the ability to expire accounts, the only human involvment will be in determining when the discounts expire...you already have to show a membership card for the discounts at most places....you could even have 12 different color membership cards based on the month of joining. That way, everyone pays $25 and gets 12 months of benefits.

I haven't seen a membership card since the very first issue, but are they still the laminated cards, or did they go with a plastic imprinted card? Do they have the members name printed on them...if so, then at the time of printing, the date of joining could be printed on there as well. Pro-ration, while a good idea in concept, may raise problems in the future, ie a member joins at the pro-rated cost in November, gets his/her discounts, then is never heard from again.

TroyPham

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 01:52 PM

miked78231.... it's not really the problem of paying(not for me that is), it's the fact that if you don't, you can't view some forums... one being the f/s thread that everyone uses web/charter alike. if web members can't post, you've cut the # of items f/s by 93%.. now lets translate that to something else. if you payed to view adult content... and could only view 7% of each picture/video.. would you sign up for that site. i bet not. same thing here. if a web member had something f/s and couldn't post it... how is a charter member who was looking for that item gonna buy it from them.. not from this site... cuz it won't be posted here.

oo and sorry for the adult content analogy

Isis

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 01:59 PM

Here are my thoughts on this website-chater member thing, but in reference to how MARSH works since I have first hand experiance in that area. Please don't take this to mean that the BOD of MAAST are doing things wrong, but this is how we adjusted things...

Why pay to be a member of this club???

We got this question all the time, heck we still get this question. Like some of you mentioned above, we tried to address the reasons why the web members who were local weren't joining the club. One of the main things we did was make it more enticing for those who weren't members. For example, door prizes available only to members, drawings for those who register at given times (like mentioned above), free admission and food to various events, as well as merchandise purchased in bulk for presentations. We also added more forums that were members only, which includes a buy/sell, club talk and various committees for those who volunteered for them. The BOD are always open to suggestions to help our members, but at the same time we try to limit the extent the BOD has to work since this is a volunteer position.

As for sponsors, the members are entitled to a given discount from our sponsors. Each sponsor is different, and they are entitled to increase that percentage if they choose. Some vendors/sponsors give discounts to repeat customers, but in the end it is good for the sponsor store to get customers initially from the discount who in the end may become repeat customers.

Another thing we did that enabled us to reach out to people who didn't know we existed, was to place brochures and business cards of the club in our sponsor stores. In addition, we have business cards printed and available to our members so they can hand them out to random people they meet who are interested in salt tanks. I use mine all the time when ever I am out and about.

There are always things to do to improve the benfefits for members, but the idea is to make them worth it to those who have yet to pay and not a financial burden for the club.

hoho19

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 02:09 PM

Ok i'm going to chime in against my own wishes :P

WEB MEMBERS - NOTHING IS GOING AWAY YET! STOP MAKING THIS ABOUT THAT ISSUE.

The Charter Members are voting and talking about ways to encourage web members to become charter member. If we can find a way that we think will work to get web members to say "ah ha! I can see why $25 is worth it" without changing the way the site currently works then we will!

This is not about FORCING web members to become charter members or leave. This is about showing web members the benefits of being a charter member with such overwhelming evidence that it is a no brainer.

Bug_Power

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 02:32 PM

Would someone be willing to post up an external link to the Budget so that we can see where monies have been spent in the past? GaryP reading your thread earlier you listed a lot of things that sound interesting.

BigBird's trip....what monies are being spent out of the MAAST account for this trip?
Now look down the list of the other things you have planned....notice a trend for the location of most/all of these events. Remember it's the Marine Aquariest Association of SOUTH TEXAS....It really sounds like there should be a name change to.....Marine Aquariest Association of SAN ANTONIO.....and who ever wants to drive in.

miked78231

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 02:35 PM

i understood what was going on. i dont agree with the whole blocking of the forums. im just saying that if you like the site and what it brings to you to better your tank then there shouldnt be a problem with "donating" 25.00. if you dont want to thats fine. from what i see the 25 goes towards making the site better.

NaCl_H2O

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 02:37 PM

Okay, my turn to chime in on something that has not been brought up yet.

We all know the benefits that we can get from a paid membership (or should know after reading both of the threads), but my problem is with the length of membership.
Jim, this problem is due primarily to our manual management of memberships. With the introduction of the new software platform I hope this will be a very viable option - one I think everyone would support!

NaCl_H2O

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 02:46 PM

Well, we are off topic AGAIN, and I am not going to help! Maybe later today I will have time to split all this off into the other thread, but don;t have that time now!

you've cut the # of items f/s by 93%..
This is a completely false number. This is based on 1800 members! 1,800 is the number of people that have ever created a user id on MAAST since its inception - we have maybe 300-400 members that have active accounts.

Would someone be willing to post up an external link to the Budget so that we can see where monies have been spent in the past?
This info is available to Charter members through normal postings of BOD meeting summaries - it is not available to Web Members.

TroyPham

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 03:14 PM

sorry for going off topic..

and yes i was basing my numbers on the 1800. because there are that many users, there are that many potential users posting things in the F/S thread... just because they aren't active right now doesn't mean that they may not be active tomarrow and post something for sale. so you have to include them.

example... what if i was a paying member of DFWMAS, and had an item that i wanted to offer to the members of Maast. Would I to pay to post a f/s thread, or would i try to find a forum that i could post it for free.

and then we(Maast) lost a chance to buy the item.

gcantu

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 03:35 PM

WEB MEMBERS - NOTHING IS GOING AWAY YET! STOP MAKING THIS ABOUT THAT ISSUE.

This is not about FORCING web members to become charter members or leave. This is about showing web members the benefits of being a charter member with such overwhelming evidence that it is a no brainer.

If this forum is about showing us "web members" the benefits, then please by all means show me the overwhelming evidence that it is a "no brainer". I guess the title of this thread threw me for a loop.
I have been looking through alot of the older forums to see if there is something out there that will catch my eye and make me understand the "benefits" but I don't see any.
In one forum about the trip to Sea World, one Charter member asked if his wife was eligible for some sort of discount since he was a "Charter" member and the response was simple: He had to pay $4.95 and his wife $9.95. This is not a deal breaker for me but I just thought some consideration should have taken place to offer some sort of family discount. Again, it's not a deal breaker, I am still looking for that "overwhelming evidence".

Respectfully,
George

Bug_Power

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 04:39 PM

Would someone be willing to post up an external link to the Budget so that we can see where monies have been spent in the past?
This info is available to Charter members through normal postings of BOD meeting summaries - it is not available to Web Members.Correct HOWEVER it is at the descretion of ANY charter member. To PM me or post a link to the meeting summaries. Why the secrecy? Non-profits routinely post thier budgets. Is there some reason why MAAST would like to keep web members from knowing if we join where our money would be spent?

Bill S

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 04:49 PM

Troy,

When I attach a photo to my post - like many others do - it IS stored on the server. However, what REALLY costs $$ is that each time that photo is accessed, it rings up a bandwidth charge.

Bug_Power

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 05:23 PM

Bstreep, why do you attach the photos most ISP include webspace and photobucket and imageshack are free? BTW it was me that said that not Troy. Once again it's another feature that really is unneeded, yet takes away resources that could be put to better use somewhere else. So not only does the server have to store them, but it's a double wammy that it serves them as well. Logo's and other frequently used images can be cached on the server to speed things up as part of optimization. Just like Avitars and such, does the server REALLY need to store them? It does nothing but swell the user databases size.

captexas

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 07:46 PM

Chris - lmao, anytime I challenge you or the rest of the BOD things get taken the wrong way with you. I have NEVER said the club was "doing everything wrong" or have I been "stretching" my arguments. The problem is that some of the BOD and the Charter Members can't make up their mind what is going on or why the proposed changes were being made. First it appeared that the argument was that Web Members were using up bandwith and and therefore they should be restricted from parts of the site to free it up for the Charter Members for this new upgrade. Then it became and argument that Web Members were somehow cheating the system and stealing $$$ from Charter Members. This is the same system that has always been free and was free back when those very same Charter Members were Web Members. Then the issue changed to it's not a money issue, but a way to try to increase the "Charter/Web member ratio". As if restricing a small part of the site is going to do that. Then, it came down to an issue of why aren't more people paying for memberships, which should have been the original issue at hand instead of lets just put a noose around their neck until they can't do anything but pay up. Then, there has even been an issue hinted at by one of the Charter Members that it seems this is all being done as a way to kick out the "rift raft", which is really sad as things seemed to have finally calmed down before all this was started.

Again, I have never said you or anyone else is doing everything wrong. I have stated and continued to state that restricting parts of this site, whether it be to increase membership, improve the speed of the site, or raise $$$ for the club is wrong. There are other ways to pay for this site without taking any money from Web or Charter members. There are other ways to try to increase membership. No, not all of us are asking for some bribe or extra benefits to join up. Just do a better job of finding out why some people don't join and work more at changing their minds. Do that before you start taking drastic steps like restricting the site. Restricint the For Sale forums isn't going to suddenly make people join. Read all 13 or 14 pages of discussion about the issue and you will learn that.

NaCl_H2O

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 07:55 PM

Sorry folks, this is a little disjointed, but I merged in replies from This Topic (http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=182531#18 2531) that were "Debate" in nature - You wil need to use both eyes to follow this now :lol

J_G

Thu, 6th Apr 2006, 09:16 PM

Jeez, stop the finacial analysis already :roll

This isn't all about money and how MAAST can spend less on hosting. MAAST is healthy financially, and we manage to meet our goals with sponsors to keep up with raffle items, etc.

This is about the committment of members to MAASTs goals and objectives! That in itself will solve the financial challenges, and provide the voulnteer hours to spend the money constructively. We aren't investigating how to get 99% of members to join, but how to increase the Web/Charter ratio as we move forward.

I thought this was a free web site? If it is a pay site why is it open as being free? Why not reduce the fee to $5 or $10 (the price of a snail per year instead of per month). Sounds like MAAST doesnt need the money so why make the majority mad (web members are the majority it sounds like). Im an Electrical Engineer and know that "non-profit" organizations take "by contribution".