WEBSITE DOWN *POSTPONED*!

[NaCl_H2O]

*** NOTICE TO ALL MEMBERS ***

The MAAST website will be going down at approximately noon on Sunday April 9th, and will be down the remainder of the day, and possibly late into the early party of Monday the 10th.

This is being done to move the site over to new software. The new software being implemented is VbPortal with VBulletin (This is the same software used by Reef Central).

Initially, the new setup will be missing some capabilities, but the forums will be fully functional and all current topics will be migrated. Other capabilities will be added back/replaced over the next few weeks or so.

These changes are being made to correct the slowness encountered on the MAAST site at times, and to take advantage of new features and improved administration/moderation capabilities.

At this time we will also be restricting some forums to Charter Members only, and others will be such that non-charter members can read/post but not create new topics in some forums. Our Charter membership is currently voting on how this is to be implemented and these changes will be announced once the voting is completed.

So ... everyone might as well attend the MAAST meeting at Aquatic Warehouse on April 9th since you won't be able to get your "MAAST fix" online that day :P

We hope the new software will greatly improve the MAAST site and will provide new capabilities to our members. The BOD has invested significant money and time into this upgrade.

BTW - Chris won't be attending the meeting :P

[captexas]

Exactly what forums are being restricted? I could maybe understand restricting the Photography Forum, but not any of the other ones. Besides finding the idea of restricting forums from public use extremely disheartening, I think it will just push people to post their topics in incorrect forums which is already a problem. I've been with MAAST almost since the beginning and have served on the BOD. It has ALWAYS been agreed that the website shoud be free as it is not only an educational tool, but also helps get new people interested in the hobby and club. By restrcting who can and can't post you are now turning this into a pay site generating revenue and that is not it's purpose. There are many, many other benefits to paying for a membership as it is and a members only Charter Forum is in place already.

[GaryP]

The purpose of restricting access is a simple matter of economic survival Chris. Website resources are continuing to be stretched as online access grows. We have more web members accessing the site now then we ever have before. In order to meet that demand, we are going to have to spend more and more money to pay for those resources. It simply comes down to a matter of whether we partially restrict access to the 80% of users that do not support the site financially, or put some real incentives in place to get them to pay for the resources they are using. If this is not done, the club will simply no longer exist as anything more then a website. Then it will truly be a pay website like RC. I know what some will say, RC is not a pay website. OK, try using the search engine on RC to try and find something useful without being a paying member. It will never happen.

We have almost tripled what we are spending on hosting in the last year. At the rate we are going that rate of increase won't stop anytime soon. For us to take the next step in size, it will not only call for additional hosting fees but also paying for our own server and rack space in addition to hosting. While we are not a pay website, the resources we are using and expected growth of the website put us into that category. How many local club websites have 40-60 users online at any one time downloading graphics intensive content? Not many. We will end up paying for commercial level website resources. There is a huge increase in cost whenever you do that. The club can simply not afford to do that.

We have absolutely no intention of restricting access to the educational forums on the website. That is not even being considered. We want everyone to have access to those. What we are considering, however, is to restrict access to non-paying members for those forums that web members are receiving a financial benefit without paying for them in the form of supporting the club and the website. None of us are happy that it has come to this. We wish this wasn't necessary. Its a simple matter of economics. Either we find some way to increase the financial support the club is recieving, or we cut down on the resources that are being utilized by those that do not choose to support the club. What we are doing is not a lot different then other clubs have done. We have talked to MARSH and they have restricted access to some of their forums as well.

No where in the club's charter does it say anything about providing a place for people to sell or buy products or organize group orders. We are still 100% dedicated to the educational goals of the club. However, if the current trend is not stopped, we will have no money available for anything besides supporting the website. That means no money for meetings, organizing trips, Plaetta type events, or anything else that we are planning. We have tried to increase the benefits of membership but that just does not seem to be enough to motivate people to spend $25 to support the club and website. If folks don't feel like they receive $25 worth of benefit from becoming a charter member, then they are still free to use the educational forums of the website. The hosting fees are continuing to eat up an increasing share of the clubs funds. We just spent several hundred dollars on new software to hopefully solve the slow down problems we have been experiencing. We have outgrown the current shareware platform we have been using and are now forced to use a commercial software platform to support the website. This software will require to be updated occasionally, at a cost, as well as possibly pay subscription fees.

These changes have been discussed at length with the charter members that are paying for the site with their dues. As a matter of fact, the proposed changes were a suggestion from a charter member and not the BOD. The exact form that the restrictions will take are currently being voted on by the charter members after the BOD consulted with them and they proposed a couple of different options. We realize these changes will not be popular, but we would rather deal with it now then when it becomes a crisis.

[Sherri]

Very good explanation Gary...as very very true. All members should read it and get a true picture of growth pains MAAST is experiencing. Restricting access to Educational Forums was never even a question or issue. Won't happen. Simple. :)

[ansonluna]

I will tell you guys why I didn't pay my dues this year. I have only been on here for a little over 2 years and I have seen all sorts of crazy stuff going on. I was under the impression that MAAST was a non-profit organization, but all I have seen is profit. MAAST collects $25 dollars for membership, then you make $$ off of the raffles, the stuff provided for the raffles is provided by the sponsers which cost MAAST $0, and then we have had one guest speaker which we had to pay to attend. Why does MAAST have to maintain thousands of dollars in the bank, it just sits there? Waiting to get stolen.....but digress.....I love MAAST and have made many good friends from this site. I also would have never had a successful SW tank without the site. When I see changes and see the MAAST of "back in the day".....where we go to meetings, learn something, and stop all the bickering....then I will pay my dues. :D

[TroyPham]

I don't pay dues because I never make any of the meetings and such. I think the advertising market needs to be tapped to help cover cost. With the explosion of growth projected by the trend, online retailers need to be paying for banner space, or per. click, not the members. I'm a member of other boards with far greater viewing/membership with no dues, and they pay for software updates as well as hosting fees with advertiser support. Now you may say that the advertisers do support, they do, by giving things to raffle or donat. Thats great, but you have to attend the meetings to be able to win those items at. Meetings not everyone can make when we have to drive 2-2.5hrs to get to.

Maybe there needs to be a graded type of member ship. those that want to pay for forum use only, those that want bandwith for hosting pics, and the full membership.

And restricting a forum is Gay in my opinion... "not that their's anything wrong with it" :D

Just a thought.

[Bill S]

We can all come up with valid excuses not to pay. Some folks may think that having a few thousand $$ in the bank is bad - and that is shows the club is making a profit. It's actually just opposite of that. Having money is OK when you are a non-profit or a not for profit. And, to host conventions, bring in speakers, have a dedicated server at a hosting company ALL require a healthy bank account. Personally, I pay more for raffle tickets every MONTH than I do for the club dues in a YEAR - it supports the club AND I usually end up with a decent prize.

It comes down to this: Has the benefit of the club being on line benefited you in the amount of $25 or more over the last year? If so, ink up.

[Sherri]

Why does MAAST have to maintain thousands of dollars in the bank, it just sits there? Waiting to get stolen.....but digress.....I love MAAST and have made many good friends from this site. I also would have never had a successful SW tank without the site. When I see changes and see the MAAST of "back in the day".....where we go to meetings, learn something, and stop all the bickering....then I will pay my dues. :D

Waiting to get stolen???? Beg your pardon? :huh If nothing else, MAAST in the last year has gotten more organized, protected, grown in paying members, been able to cushion itself moneywise to start bringing in speakers...(SeaWorld wasn't cheap BTW) looking into possibly making a bid for MACNA to come to San Antonio, website upgrades one after another because of these growing pains, etc.

The MAAST "back in the day" - there have been many changes for the good. It's growing....some things have to change because of it. The BOD's are constantly - and I say constantly, working everyday to make this site what it is and making sure it stays that way. If you are talking about the bickering....a few people making trouble intentionally? They're gone. Case closed.

Back to "waiting to be stolen"? Not Under My Watch. MAAST books & money are about as squeaky clean as it gets. ;)

[brieman]

I have no problem with the $25.00 dues, Actually $50.00 for me and wife. I've won stuff at the raffle, not to mention what I have saved on discounts at the lfs'. I have been a Charter Member since I was referred to Maast and plan on it as long as I am in the hobby. There are many great people here and I have learned a lot of things that I was doing wrong. Honestly since Maast my tank has never looked as good as it does now.

[mathias]

for a dedicated server that will do this site with out any problems would cost only $99 a month...... thats $1200 a year.....


plus with the vbulletin software you can automate the whole membership process with online pay..... it will auto put someone in a member group, and take them out when the time expires......


I personaly think $100 a month is nothing..... any any dedicated hosting can easily run 250 users online at one time or more....

[captexas]

While we are talking about the thousands of dollars MAAST has in it's bank and spending a bunch of it on new servers and software, why aren't the BOD meeting minutes posted anymore that show the club's financial situation and summary info about the club? This was and should still be public information. Club members and prospective paying members should be able to see where thier money is going.

As a side note, I agree that the sponsors should be paying more for this site if it is so popular and on all these alleged search engines that are slowing our site down. I also agree that $25 is a fair price to join MAAST. The BOD keeps mentioning all this growth, but the total web members listed for the site has not exploded over the past year so I don't see where this is coming from. Ristricting sections of this site is not the answer, finding better methods to power it and fund it is.

[C.Mydas]

While we are talking about the thousands of dollars MAAST has in it's bank and spending a bunch of it on new servers and software, why aren't the BOD meeting minutes posted anymore that show the club's financial situation and summary info about the club? This was and should still be public information. Club members and prospective paying members should be able to see where thier money is going.

http://www.maast.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid= 74&mode=thread&order=1&thold=0

[brewercm]

I got your back Sherry, I don't think we could ask for a better treasurer than the one that we have . With that said, I don't think he was speaking of you though.
The only part that still bothers me is the locking down of so many of the forums. I realize the cost and the whole it's only $25, but you can still post for sale items and the others things we are taking away on MARSH, RC or any of the other really big sites. They had to come up with some way to do it without cutting back in so many areas. What seems to be their secret that we just aren't getting here.

[C.Mydas]

If you want to continuously take from the club without giving back then fine...thats your choice. But why should the people who pay to keep the club going have the same access and benefits that people who dont contribute have? I pay my $25 b/c it is the right thing to do. MAAST is a service that I use and I have made my $25 back ten-fold, so why not help keep it going? Its like not voting in an election then complaining about the outcome. :roll

[ansonluna]

HA, HA!!! I don't have authorization to see that. How can I decide if I am willing to invest my hard eared $25 a year, when I can't even see where MAAST spends it's money? :D

I did not take any personal pop-shots at anyone....I was talking about the past. I know things concerning money are running extrememely well now. :D

SHOW ME GUEST SPEAKERS. SHOW ME HOW MUCH IT IS COSTING TO RUN THIS WEBSITE. PULL AT MY HEART STRINGS WITH VALID REASONS AND I WILL PAY MY DUES. KEEP THINGS THE WAY THEY ARE AND I WILL COUGH UP NOTHING. Am not not asking anyone to beg either. Just provides me with more information. I am telling you.....if things proceed with in it's current course MAAST is going to end up with the same 50 people on the site and no one else. Then you won't have to worry about the BIG BUCKS spend on FANCY PANTS servers. :D

[falcondob]

HA, HA!!! I don't have authorization to see that. How can I decide if I am willing to invest my hard eared $25 a year, when I can't even see where MAAST spends it's money? :D


As a web member, I don't think it is any of your business how the MAAST club monies are spent or not spent. As a Charter Member you would have every right to know.

I am not sure I understand what you are implying. The officers and BOD are getting rich off of MAAST dues, raffles, and vendor prizes?? If they are, it isn't apparent to me. The treasurer we have is BEYOND REPROACH! She would never allow any thing remotely shady to occur. As far as having money in the bank, I know it may be contrary to modern culture, but that is what fiscal responsibility is about.

As far as 50 members being all that is around. Great! That is more that actively participate today. I will take 50 dedicated, mature, contributing members to 300 non-paying, non-particpating members and 30 infantile posters with no social skills anyday.

[brewercm]

As a web member, I don't think it is any of your business how the MAAST club monies are spent or not spent. As a Charter Member you would have every right to know.

A little on the harsh side but somewhat true. Unless you happen to be a web member that spends $25 to $50 on raffle tickets each meeting which will now no longer show up because they feel slighted. Not saying that this person exists, just a thought.


As far as 50 members being all that is around. Great! That is more that actively participate today. I will take 50 dedicated, mature, contributing members to 300 non-paying, non-particpating members and 30 infantile posters with no social skills anyday.

This will not help us to grow in a manner that is necessary to help build the club in the right direction. Sure we'll have our pain in the butts that want to come in and cause troubles, all clubs/sites have them but we have plenty of mods on line now to take care of those isssues. I think that 50 dedicated members can sometimes be a stretch for even the bigger sites. But to get a good size group in that sees the value of what they are getting is where we need to be focusing.

[Darth-Tater]

Gosh.... there is an awful lot of whining going on here and no cheese in sight :lol There will always be people objecting to something. Every day people who are in the minority push and scream their way and make things change. I think that MAAST is doing a super job. Like John I would to have 50 good users than 300 oh woe is me users.

As a web member, I don't think it is any of your business how the MAAST club monies are spent or not spent. As a Charter Member you would have every right to know.John


I think this too is true. Pay your $25.00 and look at all of the MAAST dealings

David

[GaryP]

Better yet, pay your $25 and run for the BOD. If anyone thinks they can do a better job, I'd be glad to let them take a shot at it. As I recall there wasn't exactly a rush to sign up to run for the BOD. As the old saying goes, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem.

In my opinion, web members have the same status as guests in my homes here. They don't pay the mortgage or the electric bill. We welcome them with open arms and offer them refreshments or dinner, but at the same time we're not going to let them clean out the cupboard and the fridge.

[falcondob]

A little on the harsh side but somewhat true. Unless you happen to be a web member that spends $25 to $50 on raffle tickets each meeting which will now no longer show up because they feel slighted. Not saying that this person exists, just a thought.


You are right it was a little harsh. But I too tire of the whining. Asking to see the books of club to which you are not even a member was just a little more than I could take.

If a person (Web member, Charter Member, or anyone) pays $25 to $50 for raffle tickets, they get what they paid for, a chance to win a prize, no more. How MAAST spends that money is the business of the Charter Members.

Besides, it speaks loudly if you can afford to spend $25-50 on raffle tickets, but not the ONCE A YEAR $25 for a charter membership.

Ok, when I start getting harsh, it is time to shut up. My last post on the subject, would guess everyone knows where I stand.

Slithering back under my rock....

[NaCl_H2O]

Better yet, pay your $25 and run for the BOD.
Still better, pay your dues and you can even vote on the proposed restrictions ;)


We welcome them with open arms, but at the same time we're not going to let them clean out the cupboard and the fridge.
ROFL ... And we even clean the bathroom for them :lol

[falcondob]

but at the same time we're not going to let them clean out the cupboard and the fridge.

Best idea I have heard. My fridge NEEDS cleaning out, is that how you get it done? Wow..I would have never thought of it... ;)

[J_G]

My take on the situation - I think it is up to MAAST directors to decide which direction they want to take the site. If they feel they want a pay site "so be it" and that is the way the site will be conducted. I am a web member myself and would prefer not to have to pay. I dont buy and sell alot on here but I wouldnt want my access limited. Other sites are free for me to buy and sell like frags.org, Craigslist, MARSH, ReefCentral (with minimum of 200 posts) and such like and the list goes on.... Im not sure at this time what my new opinion would be if I would get reduced to limited access. People that live outside of Texas that want to trade or sale there items probably wont want to pay the $25 fee since they arent close enough to attend the meetings. That might limit the availability of alot of corals to just local members :( . Something to think about :blink

[Bill S]

My opinion is send in your $$ and then you can look at the books. And then you can complain. 771 posts and not a member? Hmmm.

[villjr]

As the old saying goes, you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem.

[/quote]

So if someone doesn't agree with you, they are part of the problem. Nice to hear that.

-Ernest

[subber]

Reading all these entries make me think that this club is heading down the wrong road. Read Captexas first entry really slow so it soaks in and instead of using the " We are brown eyed and they are blue eyed" mentality, think of it as ONE club. There will always be some that don't pay the dues for what ever reason, and just because you pay doesn't mean you are the only ones that are right. This isn't a black or white issue, there is a lot of grey in it.
Yes, someone who is thinking of joining should be able to see how the club makes its' money and how it is spent. Would you join anything (clubs,church,members only shops) without knowing how they do their business and how it will affect you? I sure hope not. I am a web member to 5 different clubs and since all five are distant to me, I don't see a problem. I don't get door prizes, raffle tickets and have been to two meetings (one for maast ( I paid) and one for the Louisiana club when I was driving thru) and have contributed on all of them. If I wanted to see one of the Maast speakers at a function, I would expect to pay a fee. But it should never come down to " I'll sell my corals only to Charter members not web members". Really childish and contrary to harmony on this site. When I have sold items on here, I didn't ask nor cared if they were web member or not....they were a member of the club, or should items bought from WEB members be returned as being unworthy by the Charter members.
As for funding, how is it that sponsors only pay a one time fee to get on the site and are never asked again. There should be a fee for the banners which run 24/7. Are billboards sold for one fee? Everything is going WEB, ask any and all LFS. Maast should be on the forefront to tap this growing money pit. By the way, some of the clubs request members (all) to send in info on prospective sponsors to keep the site going by paying for their advertising. Like I said, this is a group club, don't tear it apart by letting some define what a good club member is. Remember, it is only an opinion and everyone has one.

[Sherri]

I got your back Sherry, I don't think we could ask for a better treasurer than the one that we have . With that said, I don't think he was speaking of you though.

It wasn't taken that way by me at all. I had a ;) at the end. :)

[cpreefguy]

For less than $0.15 a day, MAAST is more than worth it. I have made so many friends, gotten so many awesome deals, received priceless knowledge, contributed my learned knowledge to struggling aquarists... I could go on and on. I know the same goes for many other members, web or charter. We as a club are growing, and things are going to change, it would be unrealistic to expect them not to. If you dont want to pay the $25 to become a charter member, thats fine. You still have access to everything this club was/is founded on. If youre a charter member, you enjoy the benefits that your contribution has provided you.

[BIGBIRD123]

quote:
As for funding, how is it that sponsors only pay a one time fee to get on the site and are never asked again. There should be a fee for the banners which run 24/7.


These sponsors pay this fee each and every year. It is not a one time fee. There are different types of sponsorships, too. You need to get the facts right. There's more to it than you think you know.

Steve

[J_G]

One last item to note - The one shot people that have something to sale because "there son left home" or "a spouse passed away" or "aquarists that are now out of the hobby" and have stuff in their garage they want to get out to other hobbiests for cheap or free will completely go away. That means the "for sale" forum will dwindle to nothing or very few items to choose from for the charter members. If dues are required to sale items thinking twice about joining would be in question. Im still not saying I wouldnt pay Im just saying that my charter membership might not get me as much as it would otherwise. (I was a charter member and paid my $25 and only received less than 5 months worth of membership and just havent paid again since that happened). As a charter member I had rather see that everyone could still sale so my choices arent limited. I think MAAST is a great organization and web members selling goods is contributing to the club because charter members can buy cheaper items and more of it. Lets not limit our resources. :roll
Remember the Tim Marvin's of MAAST. He is no longer in the hobby but is very knowledgeable. It probably wouldnt pay him to join again but still offers his advise when asked. With that he is able to sale items in return and keeps coming back.

[brewercm]

[quote]Ok, when I start getting harsh, it is time to shut up. My last post on the subject, would guess everyone knows where I stand.

Slithering back under my rock....
Then



[quote]Best idea I have heard. My fridge NEEDS cleaning out, is that how you get it done? Wow..I would have never thought of it...

Hey, what happened. Just couldn't control yourself could you. :D

[GaryP]

I can certainly appreciate everyone's viewpoint here. In a perfect world we wouldn't have to make these sort of hard decisions. The only problem is that none of this addresses the original point I tried to make. How do we pay for it? Does anyone want to come up with a better solution? If so, please let me know.

We have looked at a lot of "$99 Server" solutions over the last couple of years. None of them have turned out to be as good as what we are currently doing. We are already paying almost that much anyway and I'm sure most of you have noticed the slow website response we have been experiencing recently.

After all, we are talking about $2 a month. Two stinking dollars a month! Less than the cost of a snail at most LFS. And another thing, we're not talking about making this a pay site, only limiting access to certain parts of the website that are not part of our educational charter. When was the last time you used Ebay for free? Craigslist? I guarantee they are definitely a for profit business. It may not cost to list there, but I'm sure Craig isn't a poor man. When was the last time you put a classified ad in the newspaper for free? How about in the Thrifty Nickel?

So you don't come to meetings. OK, when was the last time anyone ever saw us charge to attend a meeting? Never. Anyone and everyone is welcome to come to a meeting, including webmembers. I've never seen anyone even hit up at a meeting to become a charter member. We do have door prizes for charter members. That's simply one of the advantages of membership. Besides, this has absolutely nothing to do with meetings. This does have everything to do with the financial support of the website that is the central focus of MAAST as an organization.

I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why some people don't want to become a charter member. That's fine, no hard feelings. We hope you still find the website and meetings beneficial. What I have a hard time understanding is the fact that people are complaining about us taking away something that isn't there's in the first place. That's kind of like complaining about someone taking away charity. Isn't it?

The simple fact is that 20% of the users here pay for the resources that are used by the other 80%. How this all shakes out is up to the charter members. We have put this in their hands to decide. They are currently voting on how or even if forum access will be limited. The decision is in their hands as they are the ones that truly own the website and the club.

[J_G]

After all, we are talking about $2 a month. Two stinking dollars a month! Less than the cost of a snail at most LFS.



This is an expensive hobby and everytime I turn around Im getting nickle and dimed. In fact, it has times made me want to get out of reefing. It seems so petty for me to complain about $25. Its more of the principle of always having to "dish out" money everytime I turn around. I will make you a deal that I promise to keep: if you dont make it a charter only forsale forum I will pay my $25. PROMISE! Because I dont want other people to have to pay to sale their items as I feel this will only hurt the forsale forum. (I dont really buy that much but I dont want it to be limited either). I do feel if you lower it to $10/year and re-evaluate the cost to sponsors we will have a better turnout. (50 people paying $25 < 300 people paying $10) Its in the math.

Your friendly public speaker

John

[sunvsat]

Gary ,,,You are absolutely right, except for the last part of your post...can the club continue with only 20% (your figure) of the total members.
JG brought up something that no one has addressed, and that is how much the "web" members do contribute. Being one of the 80% (your figures again) I think you might have something not completely thought out. Not having something you never had as per your post, is not correct. We do have access to the site, if you want to limit it, be aware that in my time on this site, it is used by both charter and web to sell,buy, trade, and also just talk with other members. If that access goes away, then so does all it fuels on the site. Sales, trades, will only be between the Great 20% not the 100% as it is now. Hope all charter members have all they need now because the web members will go where it is easy to complete their deals without having to pay a fee to do it. Whether it be on Maast or elsewhere this part won't stop. As far as Craigs list, he will not charge for ads, he makes his money from Business employment want ads (per CNN and Craig himself in interview) . He doesn't want to charge as then it will become a smaller Ebay. (they have made numerous offers to buy Craigslist to no avail).
Free access works, and if you are a member of even Ebay, they also offer free weekends a few times a year. Oh well, do as you will...there will always be someone that takes the reins and steers things to a better place. And by the way, changes don't always mean better. "Better what you have rather than try to reinvent" old japanese proverb.

[GaryP]

one of the current proposals is that web members can post, but not start threads in some forums.

[villjr]

one of the current proposals is that web members can post, but not start threads in some forums


It's proposed to keep web members from accessing some forums(sell/trade, etc, whatever). That's fine. I have no problem w/ charter members voting to keep web members out. You want to keep 'em out, keep 'em out. But now to not allow them to start threads in others. The only threads left are "educational" forums as you have so elegantly put it. How can people ask for help if they can't start a thread? Wait until a charter member asks a question?

[NaCl_H2O]

This is being "interpreted" in the worst way possible! The forums proposed where Web Members couldn't post new threads is the FS/FT treads, they would still have FULL access to educational forums.

I will post the FULL plan, but need for the Charters to finish voting tomorrow. How about we all wait to see what is being proposed?

[TroyPham]

one of the current proposals is that web members can post, but not start threads in some forums.

if you do that... your gonna kill the forum and the club!!!

in my first post i never said anything about not paying. but making it a graded membership. i kno i've posted links of this forum on to other forums and no one looked at it cuz they had to sign up. can you imagine what would happen if they had to pay. the idea of this is to get the most # of people to join so we can share our ideas and knoledge. by making/restricting forums to charter members your taking that idea away.

the banner and ad space idea needs to be revised. with the number of members (web/charter)growing. you need to tap that you the clubs benefit. the ad sponsors get so much more in sales from there banners than your thinking.

i know in talking to bod's of other forums (car forums) that they want as many members as posible. because they use that to sell ad and banner space. but it seems like this forum takes a backwards aprouch to this idea.

Gary... your asking for ideas... i'm not sure what has been looked into on the ad and banner space. but maybe the "old" ad/banner sales method needs to be revised. they rely on this forum and others as advertising. using it's members to sell things. there business will only be affected by its decline in lost sales to the forum members. there are so many other sites that ad/banners space could be sold to that aren't being approuched or contacted. ( at least i don't think they have been)

[TroyPham]

and i'm with sunvsat..... i'll pay $25 bucks not to become a charter member but to keep all treads free to everyone.

[Sherri]

Also...Financial info is available to Charter Members thru MAAST Membership "BOD Updates". (top left hand part of screen under Menu) :)

[NaCl_H2O]

Lots of debate here folks, and that is very healthy and the simple fact that "flames" are not involved shows that MAAST is improving. I want members to understand that this concept isn't one dreamed up by the BOD, it was a recommendation from members that turned into a debate in the Charter's forum for many weeks now. That debate and input from Charter members has resulted in several proposals and an ongoing poll in the Charter's forum.

This isn't all about money and how MAAST can spend less on hosting. MAAST is healthy financially, and we manage to meet our goals with sponsors to keep up with raffle items, etc. Restricting access won't make any difference in current hosting fees, but may keep us from having to pay more in the future, and maybe not.

The root of the discussion among Charter members was if they financially support MAAST, shouldn't they benefit more from the site? Resource drains such as the Photography forum, maybe we should restrict that, etc.

I won't express my opinion, because it doesn't matter. The Charter members of MAAST are the ones making that decision - these are the members with the priveledge (per our By-Laws) to vote for change in the operations of MAAST ... so give your favorite Charter member a call and ask them to vote ;)

We will post results ... for now, it is in the hands of those that that have paid for the priveledge to vote, everyone has the priveledge of their opinion, so keep them coming :)

[J_G]

another idea - you could limit web members to 4 (or whatever) new threads per month. but something just to keep from shutting them out.

And the topic goes on and on............

[villjr]

BOD members are charter members, aren't they? So no BOD members are voting on this referendum?

[NaCl_H2O]

Yes, BODs are charters and are voting, 10 votes among BOD members, and 130 total Charter members

[Chris]

another idea - you could limit web members to 4 (or whatever) new threads per month. but something just to keep from shutting them out.

And the topic goes on and on............

This option is unrealistic as there is no forum software available on the market anywhere that would offer such a feature.

~Chris ^_^

[captexas]

Well, according to Steves numbers of 10 BOD and 130 paid members, that makes GARYs numbers way off. According the the main forum page, there are 1886 registered users of this site. With 140 paid members, that makes it only about 7% of the total users of this site. It is ridiculous to alienate 93% of the population that fuels this site. Yes, as they don't pay, they don't fuel the club and it's paid members, but it is what keeps this website popular and is the reason this club has grown so much, open use of THE WEBSITE!


How this all shakes out is up to the charter members.

Well of course if you put it to them like that, that they are being taken advantage of by non paying members, of course they are going to say kick them out! You take a blind horse by the reins, of course it's going to go where you lead it. As mentioned by others, MARSH, RC, Reef.org, and all the other sites similar to ours have no such restrictions yet they stay afloat. Look at other options before you alienate 93% of the users of this site and drag it down.

Paid members already get ues of the Image Gallery to post all the pics they want and silly avatars. If you want to restrict it more to help free up the site data a bit, restrict posting pictures and group orders to members only. Restricting the For Sale/Trade section is really dumb idea. Doing so not only keeps 93% of us from posting items for sale, but it also keeps 93% of the items up for sale from 7% being able to buy them. What good does that do? To me that actually is harmful to the paid members as they will no longer be able to get in on some great stuff being sold at great prices.

Again, don't limit this to what 7% of the users have to say. They get their money's worth on raffles, discounted rates for attending the one or two speaking events the club has actually had, and discounted rates at numerous LFS and online vendors, and other things. Find other alternatives, this is not the right one. You may think this will push more people to join as a paid member, I think it will just deter more people and upset the people who do actively participate here. While you talk now of only restricting the For Sale forums, give it a year and you will be wanting to restrict something else and that is wrong. Talk to other clubs, find out how they pay for and manage their sites. Find other ways to boost paid membership than to take away parts of this site that has always been free/open to the public. If it weren't for this website, there would be no MAAST the club and no paid memberships.

Also, saying basically that if you don't like this, then pay up $$ and/or run for a BOD position is childish, especially coming from current BODs. No one is being attacked personally, just arguing against a bad decision.

[Bill S]

Here are a couple to add to your list for consideration for Web Members:

No avatars (or size limit their avatars)
Limited upload space for attachments
Limited PMs stored

All of these can be done in vBulletin. None of these take away from their use of the website.

[Bill S]

My experience concerning "registered users" is that if you eliminate the folks who didn't complete registration, you eliminate about 25%. Then go and look at the users that posted more than 5 times, and you lose around 80%! I'd be interested in knowing what percentage of the registered users have posted over 5 times... Then look at those over 100 - they are the TRUE users of the website.

[captexas]

Ever since the actual Club first formed with paid memberships, there has been an issue of only getting a small percentage of the site users to pay for a club membership. Sure, $25 isn't much, but why do so many choose not to pay? Extra incentives and even extra restrictions have been tried, but still no great increase in membership. So . . . why not take a real survey of those who haven't paid and get some ideas on not only why they have chosen not to join, but what would make it worth it to them? Not some simple little poll on the front page either. Go through the user list and survey web members who do participate online, not lurkers. Find out what is keeping them from paying for a so called great value and/or what improvements would get them to join in. Work to find an answer instead of just applying more restrictions that will just push more web members away. I know that is the easy way, but it is the wrong way. Again, restricting the For Sale section (any sections for that matter other than photos), benefits no one, especially the paid members. Not only do you reduce the for sale items that paid members currently have access to, you will also reduce the amount of ideas and info exchanged here.

It shouldn't be looked upon as web members are taking advantage of charter members, it should be looked at as how do we improve things to get more members and how to better pay for the operation of this site without having to ding the members for more $$$.

[NaCl_H2O]

My experience concerning "registered users" is that if you eliminate the folks who didn't complete registration, you eliminate about 25%. Then go and look at the users that posted more than 5 times, and you lose around 80%! I'd be interested in knowing what percentage of the registered users have posted over 5 times... Then look at those over 100 - they are the TRUE users of the website.
The memberlist is sortable by post count. If you do this, you have to go all the way to page 67 of 76 before you reach those posting 100 or more posts, or about 250 users with 100 or more posts.

[captexas]

Post count is completely missing the point. If all we care about is post count, then Josh should be the only paid member and we should all be restricted! lmao :)

[NaCl_H20_Taffy]

Let's say the small percentage of people who do pay the $25 and participate in helping to run things get tired of all the whining and quit !
Then there will be no MAAST site at all ! If this were to happen there would be quite a few spouses who would be glad that their husbands/wives have a greater percentage of time to spend sleeping, working on thier own tanks etc. It's like not paying your Home owner's association dues & then griping about the people that make the rules. This is exactly the reason for board burnout. Try it for a week, then lets see what you have to say !

[captexas]

Mrs H20 -
Thanks for your concern, but I see you are a web member only as well? And here you are "whining/griping" about us being able to give our opinion as you just did? As far as your comment, I have tried it. I have been around since before there was a MAAST back when it was on yahoo. Then when it started, I was asked to be on the first BOD. I served for over a year and had to resign due to personal issues. So I know what goes on, I know that people demand a lot and give very little in return. So why was I asked to be on the BOD? Because I participated ONLINE! Because I spoke up and expressed my opinions and that is what myself and others are doing here, not whining! Not becuase I paid $25 to be a member, which I have always been a paid member up until now, 2006. Why is it that whenever someone says something against those in charge, it is deemed whining/griping? We have a right to express our opinions and concerns over this club/site. This club that some of us have been around since the beginning and still love so much even with all the turmoil that has gone on the past year or so. I have defended this club and the BOD both here and on other sites so many times I have lost count, especially lately.

[NaCl_H20_Taffy]

I am voicing my opinion, not griping about what I am unable to see online. This is an interesting site & if there are aspects that are restricted from me that I am interested in, due to being a webmember then I will gladly pay the dues.

[brewercm]

This is an interesting site & if there are aspects that are restricted from me that I am interested in, due to being a webmember then I will gladly pay the dues.

This may be true for you, but for 90% of the others, they will head where it's free and there is no constant nagging to become a paying member. I've heard on numerous occasions from members that they'd gladly pay ten times the amount for what they get out of the club. Well if you can afford to do that then do it, but I have yet to see it happen. Not trying to start a class warfare issue here, but I've met folks that run the fulll spectrum financially and they all have one thing in common and that is the love of this hobby. I dare say that those that are struggling yet still seem to put up a pretty decent system and don't go "buy a reef" as I love to put it deserve just as much respect, and for some to belittle them by saying that it's just $25 out of your measly life does not help the matter.

Some of the largest websites out there were started and have always been free sites with a small note that donations are accepted through paypal to help towards the costs of maintaining and bettering the site. Many of these are now some of the major players on the web due to growth and the ability to put their size to use through the use of paying sponsors, that's where the money is.

I try to equate it to my choice of churches. If I walk into a place that I feel welcome and the friendship and Camaraderie is there I am willing to open my wallet more to see this place excel. I feel like I have a partial ownership in that place and in the ability for it to continue and flourish. If every time I attend a meeting and all I here is become a paying member or you can't do this, or you're not eligible for that it becomes to the point of harrasing and I'd just as soon go find a new home.

[C.Mydas]

A point that needs to be made: Webmembers will still have access to read and post in the FS forums, just not create a new thread. So if a charter puts "WTB" a webmember can reply, and if a charter wants to sell something a webmember can still buy it. Which is my opinion is completely fair. The FS forums help us all save a ton of money in the hobby, so why should people be able to save money here and cost us money while doing it?

The educational forums will still be completely accessible by everyone and anyone.

The charter membership currently has the ability to vote on this. And the blind horse comment was completely insulting, do you seriously think this vote is happening without the charters discussing all the points that have been brought up here too? Let the vote happen, and let the majority win...simple as that. In the original (first poll) these changes passed, but for some reason the BOD backed off and proposed a new 'nicer' one. So now both are up for a vote. Which I support but dont understand, if the charters voted (albeit a small % of them) then that should be it.

My point: If you are a charter member go VOTE! If not, there is nothing you can do here except antagonize the BOD who are trying to do what the paying membership has asked them to do, which is their job whether you like it or not.

[NaCl_H20_Taffy]

Sorry to say but you may have a hard time finding that kind of church nowadays. I am definitely not the diplomatic person in my family & I believe that they are definitely getting a lot out of MAAST for a small amount of money. I think that most people pay any price for what they really want, no matter what the economic level. Look around you. I believe MAAST is worth the money & I think people that pay their dues are the people most interested in seeing it succeed.

[mathias]

you say a $99 server wont host this site? you are greatly mistaken this site is not that large and if its taking that much memory to run it... there are some programming errors.....


I been running a forum for 5 yrs on 3 different servers and like I said before it avg 200+ at one time.... plus a arcade..... and much more...

[mathias]

if your that worried get more ram....

http://www.ev1servers.net/hosting/celeron.asp

and do the $149..... and its down in houston.... not to far... great company

[Darth-Tater]

Golly gee captexas. I just joined so I can have a silly aviator.

DT

[Chris]

Moving to a fully dedicated server is certainly an option but quality hosting for $99 is a bit of a stretch. As it stands now, we're reaching our maximum potential with a semi-dedicated (VPS) server; hense the upcoming switch to a more improved forum system which should alleviate some of the strain.

Dramatic changes such as these don't come as easy as it is for someone owning their own personal website. On one hand you have the freedom to do as you please because it's your site and your personal budget. MAAST on the otherhand remains accountable to our members and such a switch also requires having the proper people step up who have the knowledge/know-how to maintain the server during troublesome issues.

Also, some of you people are putting a lot of emphasis into what you deem the cost-factor of these changes. I can guarantee you cost has little to do with it. The Charter members are the ones who made these requests and wishing the Board take these actions, not the other way around.

[TroyPham]

well if this is the case...

"Also, some of you people are putting a lot of emphasis into what you deem the cost-factor of these changes. I can guarantee you cost has little to do with it. The Charter members are the ones who made these requests and wishing the Board take these actions, not the other way around. "

then your gonna loose a lot of members. and i'll be one of them...

but i guess it's no big deal because i'm not a paying member anyway.

[captexas]

You want to talk about being insulted? Go to page two and read Falcondobs demeaning comments towards myself and others here. AND HE IS ON THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS! That kind of attitude is totally uncalled for by anyone, let alone someone who is supposed to be a top representative of this club. Things like that are what keep some people form paying the $25. If it were close to December I would pay the $25 just to vote against people with that kind of attitude.

CMydas - my horse comment was directed towards Gary's response. If all you do is give a small group of people 1 option they are going to take it. That is what has been done here. The Charter members have been told, look, you are paying for all these other people and are being cheated. So of course you want to kick out/restrict the web members. Where are the other options? Web members aren't to blame for this, other than access to this site, they are not getting anything else, no discounts to speakers, no discounts on raffle tickets, no access to special raffle items or anything like that where Chartmer members do. How come I can go to RC, Reefs.org, Marsh, and all the others and not have to pay to look, reply to posts, and even start new threads in ANY section? We aren't that big and they find a way to do it! Once you start restricting one thing like being able to start new FS threads, in a year they will be looking to restrict something else because membership still hasn't increased! ALSO, web members positng their good for sale doesn't cost you a single penny! As you stated, you greatly benefit from the good deals. At least you did until you voted out 93% of what the web members could have posted there. If someone has something they want to get rid of, they aren't going to sit until some lucky day comes along and a Charter member posts a WTB thread!

Darth-Tater - lol, yes I know, exactly my point. That was an apparent idea to benefit paying members over non paying members, you get to have an avatar! :)

As I have said, look at ways to increase membership, not reduce it. Like Cliff and others have stated, all too often it seems that all anyone cares about is generating $$$ and where does it really go? Find out why people aren't joining and fix that rather than make this club even more exclusive. Right now the users for this site is listed at 1886. There hasn't been any explosive growth in the number of users as some people seem to believe. It's been awhile since we reached 1500. And I am online all the time and have never seen more than 20 to 30 people online at a time. There may be a great deal more traffic and that is what is slowing the site down. I suspect this if from GUESTS that don't register, not registered web members. Find ways to deal with that traffic, not restrict this site to the people who really use it. If search engines are what is slowing us down as Gary has stated, then take us off them! If picture posting is slowing the site down, then restrict picture posting to paid members only. If the servers company has issue, change companies or software.

How in the heck is restricting the FS forum going to improve site performance? Explain that to me please. Remember, that is what started all this? That site performance has been poor lately. I fail to see how web members selling goods to paid members in the FS forum has caused all that or how reducing it will somehow improve things. :blink

[villjr]

Well said Cap.

[mathias]

Moving to a fully dedicated server is certainly an option but quality hosting for $99 is a bit of a stretch. As it stands now, we're reaching our maximum potential with a semi-dedicated (VPS) server; hense the upcoming switch to a more improved forum system which should alleviate some of the strain.

Dramatic changes such as these don't come as easy as it is for someone owning their own personal website. On one hand you have the freedom to do as you please because it's your site and your personal budget. MAAST on the otherhand remains accountable to our members and such a switch also requires having the proper people step up who have the knowledge/know-how to maintain the server during troublesome issues.

Also, some of you people are putting a lot of emphasis into what you deem the cost-factor of these changes. I can guarantee you cost has little to do with it. The Charter members are the ones who made these requests and wishing the Board take these actions, not the other way around.


To note mysite as a personal webpage without knowing what it is no need to do that.....


and to sound like I don't know how to administer my server is well as this team is a joke aswell......


but thank you...

[brewercm]

but i guess it's no big deal because i'm not a paying member anyway.

Trust me when I say, "I" don't feel that way, althoug it is apparent that some have those feelings, maybe not all the time but at times.

That would be the equivelant of Sam Walton having said if you leave my store empty handed more than ten times don't bother coming back. Not sure that would be a good business decision.

[falcondob]

then your gonna loose a lot of members. and i'll be one of them...


This is not about wanting to lose members. This is about parity.

Let me ask you a question..If you went to a Spurs game for which you paid $25 for a ticket. When you get there you see a thousand people just walking in without a ticket. You ask and they tell you, "Oh, those are the people who didn't want to pay, but they have the same kind of seats as you." How would that make you feel? Would you pay the next time?

How long could the Spurs function with only a few people paying?

[falcondob]

You want to talk about being insulted? Go to page two and read Falcondobs demeaning comments towards myself and others here. AND HE IS ON THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS! That kind of attitude is totally uncalled for by anyone, let alone someone who is supposed to be a top representative of this club.

My comments, maybe harsh, were not demeaning, they were the truth. Why would a non-Charter Member have any right to know the workings of the club? Do I think that people who use the website should pay for it? Yes! Absolutely yes! If that is demeaning, that is a self-inflicted wound.

But, in the interest of fair-play, tell me why you feel you should get all the services of the website and not have to pay anything for it? What justification are you using for that?

And just for the record, my comments in open forums are as a "Charter Member" not as a BOD.

[brewercm]

Why would a non-Charter Member have any right to know the workings of the club?


Not trying to start a argument here but, because a crime is a crime. Whether I'm a member of a club that is being ripped off or just a casual passer by the crime is still being committed. Did not mean to bring up old stuff and any hard feelings but the question was asked.

[Bill S]

Not trying to start a argument here but, because a crime is a crime. Whether I'm a member of a club that is being ripped off or just a casual passer by the crime is still being committed.


Sorry, but there's no way a non-member (Web Member) of a club would have any right to view a treasurer's report, board meeting minutes, etc. I can't imagine climbing over to the MARSH site and demanding to see their bank account!

[brewercm]

So let just say for instance that I happened to know the treasurer of a club personally. Now all of the sudden that person starts taking extravegant trips, buying fancy cars etc. while being in that position yet I know his/her pay has not gone up (this is a personal relationship again). I also find out through the grape vine that the club is struggling with expenses every month yet they seem to be growing at a rapid pace.

What am I supposed to do, especially if I'm a member of this club also, just not a paying member.
It's all far fetched but there are some things that people feel like they should know about. Just because you aren't a stock holder in ebay doesn't mean that you don't want to know how it's run.

[captexas]

Well, when I was on the BOD, it had filed paperwork to become a NPO and by now it should either be completed or still waiting for approval. Either way, last I heard was that non profit organization's are required to provide a financial statement to the public on a regular basis and/or upon request. Awhile back there was an outcry for info on how much money the club had and what it was being used on. At that time, not only was that info posted here on the site for EVERYONE to see, but it was also supposed to be given out at the monthly club meetings. That was back when we didn't think we had much money. Turned out the club had over $8000. So . . . . not only do I think we have a right to know, why hide it? Is there something you don't want people to know?



Let me ask you a question..If you went to a Spurs game for which you paid $25 for a ticket. When you get there you see a thousand people just walking in without a ticket. You ask and they tell you, "Oh, those are the people who didn't want to pay, but they have the same kind of seats as you." How would that make you feel? Would you pay the next time?


I'm sorry, but your arguement doesn't really apply here. Yeah, I would be upset if I paid for a ticket and found out it everyone else was getting in for free. But with MAAST, this site has ALWAYS been free, before you purchased your yearly membership, before you even knew what MAAST was, it was free. So, how can you somehow now have ill will towards others who are doing the same thing that has always gone on without paying? You are not being taken advantage of, I'm not getting any of your $25. I'm not getting a discount on entry to events/speakers, I'm not getting in on special raffles or club only deals, I'm not getting discounts at any LFS, I'm not getting anything special that YOU paid you membership for. You did not pay $25 to use this site, you paid it to join a club and reap other benefits. This site being free is what made MAAST what it is. It is what keeps people coming and it is why YOU are here in the first place, not because you found out about MAAST by getting a bill for $25 in the mail.

Again, how is restricing the FS forums really benefiting the paid members or anyone else for that matter? Prove to me that restricting that section or any other section truly benefits this site or club or its paid members. Doing so will not increase benefits to paid members, won't make this site operate any faster, and definately won't increase the number of paid members. So why? Please explain this in some kind of logic, not the insulting usual of "Pay up or shut up."


And just for the record, my comments in open forums are as a "Charter Member" not as a BOD

Falcondob - the above comment you made is wrong. It doesn't matter where you say it or what you say, whether it's here online or at a meeting, in a public forum or in a closed one. YOU are on the Board of Directors of MAAST. As long as you hold that title, you represent the club with your actions and your words. This is part of the job and if you can't handle it with respect, then you either need to let the other BOD's talk or step down and then you can say whatever you want, other than what will get you bleeped or banned from the site of coure :)

[TroyPham]

captex...

"You are not being taken advantage of, I'm not getting any of your $25. I'm not getting a discount on entry to events/speakers, I'm not getting in on special raffles or club only deals, I'm not getting discounts at any LFS, I'm not getting anything special that YOU paid you membership for. You did not pay $25 to use this site, you paid it to join a club and reap other benefits."

this is what i'm talk'n about.

i'm not a charter member because i don't go to the events.

Falcondob.. if you were 2+ hours away from SA.. and you never went to the meetings, would you pay the $25????


"This site being free is what made MAAST what it is."

it started that way and it's what had keep me here.

[TroyPham]

Quote:
And just for the record, my comments in open forums are as a "Charter Member" not as a BOD


so when the President of the United States says something "off the record", is it ever off the record??

[Chris]

To note mysite as a personal webpage without knowing what it is no need to do that.....


and to sound like I don't know how to administer my server is well as this team is a joke aswell......


but thank you...


I don't know how you came to those conclusions from my post, but i'm sorry you did.

My response, while directed from your comments is intended to be understandable to the general membership as well. Why you feel slighted as my response being somehow personal is beyond me, but it's not why I even bothered to comment. I was simply trying to add that moving to a dedicated server isn't beyond reproach, yet we're still underpowered/understaffed to handle such a move.

Good day to you.

~Chris ;)

[Bug_Power]

FWIW I've been around the internet board for quite a while and have racked up probably 30,000 or more post in different technical forums. I've seen ton's of clubs/forums which have tried thier way around this and I can say with out a doubt, requireing payment from members has NEVER worked for any of the clubs. Yes I've paid my dues to clubs where I reap the benefits of membership, but I've yet to recieve any club discounts, speaking engagments, or any other club function. What ends up happening is you get the same 20 people who make the meetings talking on the internet, it gets stagnant, member leave...trust me I've seen it more then 4 times with different web sites. Have you ever wondered how forums with Thousands of online users(not registered users ONLINE users) stay up without having members pay? It's with advertisers. If your growing, so is your advertising base, advertisers also would not benefit from the loss of traffic. I can recall one web forum who lost all of their sponsors who were not club members due to the fact that the ROI from thier ad campaign was virtually NUL. The reason being is that members who would have gone to their store, go whether they advertise or not. It's NEW members who typically check out ad's and see what's available, rarely do long time members click ad's. I worked in Internet development for 8 years. I did studies on user retention and attraction. Pay websites only work for things offering services, Match.com, Ebay (pay to list). Tell me what services are going to be offered if I have to pay to come to the website....remember I don't get ANY of the other benefits other then the website. I guess it boils down to Value...show the value. You can complain on how expensive it is to run a website all day, but what it boils down to, is if you start charging, a free site will pop up and be popular. Think you guys hate Redneck Reefers now? Wait until you start charging and see how much the website grows!

[fishypets]

Hope I don't step on any of my friends toes but here goes........

I am a paying member and have been for two years now. I understand that without paying members wonderful places like MAAST would not be what they are today. If only 20 percent of the members that post on MAAST are paying I'd say there is a bunch who need to step up.....I'm not saying if it is your first post on MAAST you should pay but IMO anyone who has been on here six months or longer knows if they want to be a part of this community. Not sure how this site would look if there were no paying members but I bet it wouldn't be anywhere close to what it is now. I also feel that if you have ever sold anything on maast you should have no problem paying dues, after all EBAY charges me EVERY TIME I sell something. In the past I paid dues for any club I was a part in including boy scouts, NRA, BASS, and all my other hobbies along the way. So lets all do OUR club a favor and give back what so many have given to us. Besides $25.00 is about the cheapest thing I have EVER spent on this hobby. ;)

[aquadoc]

I agree, it does seem cheap compared to what you actualy save.


Yes I've paid my dues to clubs where I reap the benefits of membership,
You do reap the benifits here on MAAST, here is how
First plus is ALL of the people that you meet, and all of the future friends you have,
Second plus is Knowledge. Man who knew how much you could learn from a fellow reefer, and all the frags you trade/sell with other reefers :w00t
The third plus is big so here it goes. The money you save, and Let me tell you you save alot.

Ex: EVERYONE goes to the pet store to buy something, well 10% off here, and 20% of there will save you ALOT.
Another EX: I went Rivercity to get some Tropic Marin Pro... It was 89.99 :o, Then Carlos said since you are a MAAST member I will do it for 75$ even. So right there Being a CHARTER member saved me 15$, 10$ to go.
Then add all the times you went to the LFS and think about all the money you could have saved.( that could pay for MAAST renewal fees for a while) I mean enough to replace your bulbs, or buy some supplies(carbon,filter floss,etc), shoot whatever you decide. The point is you can save alot of money! So you DO benefit from being a CHARTER member.

Well you know what they say 3 strikes your out....Well I saw 3 Pluses, so I said I have to get in. LOL

I LOVE :wub MAAST, AND WILL ALWAYS BE A MEMBER! ;)

[don-n-sa]

Great post Mike...

[TroyPham]

Schnookums..... i mean greenmako :P ... i was speaking for myself and no one else... i just ask him a questions .

oo.. and i'm just a lowly web member... are you sure u want me to stop by your place :D


i realy think there are other ways to resolve all this. but if it's what charter members want... let it be done.

[NaCl_H2O]

I am locking this topic, not to discourage the debate, but to make sure everyone watching this topic can see my last reply. I have started another topic (here (http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=182026#18 2026)) for those that wish to continue the debate.

The forum software upgrade for this weekend is being postponed, pending the resolution of this topic by the Charter members. Asking Chris to proceed and then making changes to access afterwards is not realistic given the limited time he has available.

This is being postponed to give the Charter Members time to approach this decision in a more structured manner. In general, the three options presented to charters and the percent of votes for each were:

1) Moderate restrictions (58%)
2) Minimal restrictions (34%)
3) No restrictions (8%)

In addition, a great deal of debate occurred in the Charter members forum. It has been recommended that we take another approach that allows more variety in the voting process.

We will be setting up a means for Charter members to vote on a list of separate decisions, this voting will begin once I can get the polls setup, and will run for a number of days (probably 2). The polls will open later this week, maybe the weekend, but we will give a couple days notice to Charter members so they can be prepared to vote. This will definitely be a charter member decision, and the results will be implemented per majority decision.

That said, anyone wishing to participate in the vote could pay their dues and vote :P (sorry, I couldn’t resist that one)

Thanks for all your input, I am sure it will make the charter members decision even more difficult :wacko