What do you do to keep nitrate levels down

[compboy521]

My tanks nitrate levels just keep on rising.
What can I do to keep this from happening? :sick

[Ed]

In general,

Feed less and/or less frequently.

Do more frequent water changes.

Knowing more about your setup and water parameters would help us narrow down the causes. ;)

[GaryP]

How deep is your sand bed and what kind of sand are you using? What about your skimmer?

[PeeperKeeper]

How big is your tank and how much live rock do you have?

[demodiki]

For example...

I have a 55 gallon tank. I have 100 lbs of LR, 120 lbs of LS, skimmer and refugium (with chaeto). I only have 3 small fish and feed sparingly. I also do a 10 gallon water change weekly.

My nitrates have always been zero.

[compboy521]

sorry, I have a 105 gallon tank, with around 65 pounds of live rock, and about 40 pound of live sand (w/plans to get more of both). I do have a protien skimmer. It is built into the sump. I don't think it works that great due to poor desing I didn't know it a at the time of purchase. The guy at Alamo told be it was the best for my tank. (Rright!!). Right now I don't have much in the tank just two angles (Eliby, and coaral beauty), a small sting ray, 5 molly's, 2 damsels, and what I think is a fire scalup. It just looked really cool. I feeed the sting ray about twice a day with on average 1 shrimp, and maybe some gost shrimp. The other fish I feed Forumula one flaks they said it was one of the better brands. (twich daily they always seem hungry) Also I have a Mangolian Dragonet spotteted. And one cleaning shrimp.

[GaryP]

sorry, I have a 105 gallon tank, with around 65 pounds of live rock, and about 40 pound of live sand (w/plans to get more of both). I do have a protien skimmer. It is built into the sump. I don't think it works that great due to poor desing I didn't know it a at the time of purchase. The guy at Alamo told be it was the best for my tank. (Rright!!). Right now I don't have much in the tank just two angles (Eliby, and coaral beauty), a small sting ray, 5 molly's, 2 damsels, and what I think is a fire scalup. It just looked really cool. I feeed the sting ray about twice a day with on average 1 shrimp, and maybe some gost shrimp. The other fish I feed Forumula one flaks they said it was one of the better brands. (twich daily they always seem hungry) Also I have a Mangolian Dragonet spotteted. And one cleaning shrimp.
OK, here are a few thoughts about your tank.

1. Nitrates are processed in low oxygen areas of the tank into nitrogen gas. This usually occurs in a deep sand bed (DSB). To create an
effective DSB you need at least 4" of sugar fine sand. You can put special grade sand on top of that to help prevent blowing sand. If what you have is larger mesh sand now, that's OK, it will eventually migrate to the top. You mentioned that you were going to add more sand. I would suggest at least one bag of that be Caribsea aragalive. It will add some beneficial critters to the sand bed. Only one bag is really needed. The rest can be "dead" sand.

Aggressive and effective skimming will help reduce nitrates by taking out the waste before its converted into nitrates. You may want to consider upgrading your skimmer.

The other thing you can do is add a refugium. The macro algae in a fuge will use up nitrogen wastes and convert it into biomass. Basically the nitrates become fertilizer for the macro.

2. Predators, like your ray, are notorious for creating high nitrates. They eat a lot, poop a lot, and the resulting waste turns into nitrates.

3. The mandarin dragonet usually only eats small shrimp like critters called copepods and amphipods (pods). They usually will not survive without a large supply of them. The best way to do that is to install a refugium. Besides allowing creating a place to grow macro, a fuge is an excellent place for these pods to grow whithout being fed on. That's where the name comes from, refugium = refuge (from predators). I wonder consider getting the mandarin out of the tank if possible. Even if you were to put a fuge in immediately, it takes it a while to mature and develop to the point where it will support a mandarin. Occasionally you will hear about a mandarin that will eat frrozen food, but even so, a mandarin is a slow eater that feeds almost constantly and a once a day feeding may not be enough to keep it from starving.

4. Flame scallops are filter feeders. They normally don't do well in a tank. They require dosing of phytoplankton to keep them alive. Something like DT's or Tahitian blend. Unlike most of the clams common in the trade they lack photosynthetic algae in their bodies and need to be fed or they will starve.

5. I suspect that if you don't already have one, you will have a nuisance algae (like hair algae) problem. High phosphates seem to go hand in hand with high nitrates. Phosphates always result in a nuisance algae problem.

6. First I will admit that I am not an expert on rays, but from what I know about them they do require a large sand bed. You mentioned adding more LR. That's a good idea, but I don't know that you want to do that at the expense of sand bed for the ray. Depending on the species of ray, it could quickly outgrow the tank. Maybe one of the predator guys will jump in here and talk more about that.

I don't want to sound like I am being overly critical of you or your tank. Your tank is almost an exact stereotype for the kind of issues that most new folks have, including myself. This is one reason we are trying to get a mentorship program organized so that newbies will have an experienced SW person as a go to person when they are having these sorts of problems. The best suggestion I can make is to plan your equipment for the livestock you want to keep, fully research any critters before buying them, and don't take the word of an LFS employee as gospel. Unless you know the guy well, and have developed a relationship with the LFS employee, you never know where they are coming from. They could be a fresh water guy without much experience in SW except what they pick up around the shop, and that can sometimes be the equivalent of urban legends and old wives tales. I'm not trying to put down LFS employees, they usually do the best they can, but that was the one lesson I had to learn the hard way. Unfortunately I went through this before the internet when the only source of "expert" advice came from the LFS.

OK, here is the good news. Except for the shrimp and the scallop, nitrates are not really a big issue in your tank. Unless your nitrates are really, really high they are not toxic to fish. Inverts are much more sensitive to nitrates then are fish. The downside to that is that it can mean that your sand bed and LR may be lacking in some diversity that you would like. Some of the critters that you would like growing in those areas are not going to develop in a tank with high nitrates.

Sorry for the long post, but as you will find out as you hang out around here, I rarely just have a little bit to say.

[alton]

I second that! Gary you did a great job of explaining what he needs to do. If you are going to have a ray, "which they are cool" you will need to set up your tank to fit his needs until you have to make a trip to South Padre or donate to a public aquarium. Depending on the species some will grow to 3 feet. Go to Wet Web Media, they should have details on your Ray.

[Thunderkat]

With a sting ray in a 105 gallon aquarium I would move all the live rock to a fuge and load up on the sand, make it deep so your nitrate reduction layer isn't dug into by the sting ray. I would say a minimum of 8" deep sand bed. Take the rocks out so the ray can have more room to dig and play in. Your tank sounds really cool, hopefully you can get everything working out for you. Oh and with a sting ray I would really get a large fuge and load up on the live rock in there too.

[demodiki]

We have been looking at setting up a stingray tank and really, they need a species-only or FO tank. We were considering something in the 200 gallon range with a very deep sand bed. Liveaquaria suggests (depending on species) that they be kept in 150-360 gallon tanks!

Good luck and keep asking questions!

[C.Mydas]

Good post GaryP!

Thunderkat and demodiki: Regarding the husbandry of rays
"If an undergravel filter is not used, the depth of subtrate material should be kept to a minimum (5cm [about 2in] or less). This is especially true for very fine sand, which can readily become anaerobic."

"The larger grades of crushed coral and dolomite can irritate the animal's ventral surface and cause bacterial infections."

-Aquarium Sharks and Rays: The Essential Guide to Their Selection, Keeping, and Natural History by Scott W. Michael (pg 52-53)

Sharks and rays ARE vastly different than the bony fish we keep...even their gills and skin omit ammonia (bony's do to...but sharks and rays are a lot larger so have more of an impact). They really do require a special tank and wont thrive in a 'regular' reef tank. Not to say that reefkeeping techniques should not be used...b/c they should, their are just different issues and problems that need to be addressed.

As a side note angels ARE NOTORIOUS for picking at elasmobranch's (sharks and rays), repeatedly biting them which may cause and infection and kill the animal.

Compboy: What type of ray?

[Thunderkat]

Check out plenum systems C. Mydas. Kk, thx

[C.Mydas]

lol..I know what plenums are..and personally Ive never seen anyone be able to maintain a plenum successfully and definately wouldnt recommend it to beginners. Besides that though..plenums are not recommended for elasmobranch's.

1. The biggest concern being that sharks and rays often disturb the substrate which would release all the gunk in a plenum into your tank.

2. With these kind of animals biological filtration is severely inadequate. Live subtrate is OK for a small shark or ray..but they dont stay small. Heavy 'outside' the tank filtration is needed. IE: pressurized canister systems, wet/dry's, fluidized bed filter etc.

3. sharks and rays are easy to overfeed and have a propensity to regurgitate..rapidly increasing the waste in a tank and most 'live subtrate' tanks wont have adequate nitrifying bacteria to break down the sudden 'extras.'

If you have a plenum ...great...I dont think its wise...but different methods work for different people. However, the care of the animals comes first, and plenums or DSBs are not the best solution for a tank with animals that will most likely send the substrate flying and release all that 'gunk' into your tank...not a healthy situation.

[Thunderkat]

Well, with plenum systems you add a screen 2 inches above the bottom to prevent burrowing critters from getting to the bottom layer. It is not very pretty but it works. The plenum system is not without its problems, I have excessive coralline algae growth, it grows like crazy on my glass, it sounds great at first until you have to start scraping it to see. I think it is a result of high calcium levels caused by the plenum. When I get to my next duty station I think I will add SPS when I have my tank set up again. Sharks would make a mess but they would still make a mess in a barebottom. Also in a plenum system you do not have a growth of anarobic bacteria, I think you would have to use mayo or something similar to get that to happen in a aquarium anyways, microaerophilic bacteria do grow plentifully in a plenum and that is what does all the reduction in wastes. I have heard that heavy skimming is required and oxygen levels can drop to dangerously low levels at night. This has not been observed by me because I have a fuge with cheato with 24/7 lighting and have a good skimmer on my tank. The plenum system is a BAD idea though if you like seeing stacks of live rock, I have grown partial to that in my fuge and nano and love seeing all the growth on it so will probably put a shelf in my next tank to keep the sand uncovered and get a large stack of live rock. The trick is though to make it not look tacky.

[GaryP]

Don't let Instar see your comments about not running a successful plenum sytem. It'll take hours to read his reply. You thought I was bad!

[compboy521]

Thanks for all the good information.
I don't know for shure if I'm going to keep the sting ray. Yes he cool but he dosn't really go a long with other things that I want to do.
I have a friend that wants him, he has keep them before.
I'll be shure to go out and get more live sand ASAP. I'm also doing research on how to start a refugium, I just have gotten started on one but it is in the plans for the very near future.

Again Thanks for all your help

[C.Mydas]

No prob..sorry for our tangent :roll

No bare bottom is not a good idea for sharks and rays...like I said they need a sand bed...a shallow one is better.

[Thunderkat]

I started thinking about a plenum and sharks and realized it would not be a good idea because you would get the copious coralline algae growth and would have to be sticking your hand in the tank to clean it off all the time. I like my fingers :lol

[C.Mydas]

lol. :w00t