The chronicles of ICK

[don-n-sa]

With all of the talk about ICK lately I decided to start a thread about my tank and how I believe that a healthy fish can get ICK...but it can also fight it off naturally.

I also encourage others to post pics / experiences of fish that they have, that have come down with ICK or any other disease.

PLEASE NOTE

I am not trying to get people who have fish that get ICK to do nothing...I am just documenting my fish and how they have fought this nasty parasite. Again, I am not a fish disease expert I just want to show people that some myths just might be true, and some may not.


Pics and stories to come

[don-n-sa]

Ok my first experience with ICK came some time last year when I finally aquired one of my "dream fish", he was a beautiful black-dogfaced puffer


Here is a pic
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59500752-L.jpg

[don-n-sa]

Well he started showing white spots on his body...not too many but enough to get me reading up on ICK.

After a few days the white spots completely covered this poor guy and now I was in panic mode so I quickly set up a QT and treated him according to the experts that say the "only" way defeat ICK is copper and / or Hypo.

It seemed to go pretty good but the puffer was not eating well...puffers are notorious for going on hunger strikes when they are moved around. The spots were all but gone after a few days and completely gone after 2 weeks.

I kept him there for almost 2 months just to be safe. He ate "ok" after a month but not like a puffer at all...just enough to keep him alive.

After the QT he was added back to my display. In a matter of 1 week the puffer was completely covered with white spots again, and combined with a loss of appetite the puffer was dead 10 days after putting him in the display.

After all of that... :( :angry

[don-n-sa]

I reflected on everything that I did...and I did it by the book. I am not going into the fine details of the treatment, they can be found EVERYWHERE.

What I learned from this experience was no matter hard you try or follow the correct procedures...some things just do not work out.

After that experience I decided on trying other ways of treating ICK.

[don-n-sa]

I ran across an article similar to this one

http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/Saltwater-Ich-and-Garlic.htm

[don-n-sa]

So after reading the article I was confused a little.

Garlic and vitamin enriched foods can help kill ICk???

sounds way to easy and too good to be true huh....well this is where it gets tricky.

Do I believe that garlic kills ick?? NO

Then why do I keep hearing about it??? hmmm...I dont know

There has to be some merit to this right? How can so many people be crazy??? :lol

Anyway....I started watching my tank...no I always watch my tank....I mean REEEAAALYYY watching it. To the point when the comments from my wife start coming..." uhh Honey, you have been staring at the tank for an hour "

no honey its only been about 15 min

" uhh no really...an hour"

Oh ok

" are you ok ?"

um yes just fine honey...

" :roll "

[don-n-sa]

What I noticed after really staring at my tank was that ICK comes and goes in my tank....WHAT???

No really, whenever I add a new fish or move rocks around too much during my routine maintenance , some of my fish get white spots on there bodies, especially the tangs. I think that it is due to stress...it releases some sort of hormone or something of the like and the ICK that is present in my tank senses it and attacks.

EVERY ONE of the fish in my tank has had white spots ant one time or another. And no its not sand, its not dust, it is ICK or something related to ICK...

[don-n-sa]

How do I know that what is in my is really the ICK parasite? Honestly I dont really know, however I believe that it is , let me tell you why.

Some of you that have seen my tank know that I have an aggressive reef...when I say aggressive I mean the fish. I have a trigger, a puffer , an eel , a harliquin tusk, 3 hawks, combined with tangs , clowns, a mandarin, and several other reef fishes. As for corals, my tank is primarily a softie and lps tank.

With this set up I stayed away from getting cleaner shrimp for obvious reasons...but I could not go with ou them any longer since I was going to try letting my fish fight ICK naturally. I added two cleaners in the middle of the night and was careful not to disturb my fish. Well the shrimp have now been in my display for almost a year now and they do their job well!!!The puffer, trigger, tusk and EVEN the Moray let the shrimp clean them...I have pics to prove it!!!

Whever ick surfaces on my fish the cleaner shrimp in my tank set up two distinct "cleaning stations" one for the LARGE atlantic blue tang...and one for everone else. Yes the tang is the king. When there is no ick on my fish they hide for days / weeks at a time...I think they know not to strut around in my tank knowing that they could be a snack at anytime.

[don-n-sa]

today the community cleaning station was in full effect and I took some pics that I will post.

The reason that the cleaners are working overtime right now is because I added a purple tang lask week. My yellow tang started beating him up so I re-aranged most of my rocks around so everyone would make new "territories" and stop fighting. I also caught the yellow, put him in one of my fuges for a day and put him back in. All of this stressed out my fish and several of them have a few spots on them...but the purple is covered.

But everyone is eating...I am adding garlic to my foods and the cleaners are helping....

[don-n-sa]

here is the community cleaning station

http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59423066-L.jpg


here are some pics of the fish taking turns...this is literally happening every minute...a constant circle.

Trigger
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59423101-L.jpg
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59423106-L.jpg

Tusk
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59492205-L.jpg

Angel
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59492215-M.jpg

Moray
I could not get a good pic of the moray getting cleaned but I will post them anyway...the best one is the one that is the most blurry...go figure...also he is the only other fish that can use the atlantic blue's cleaner station
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59423078-L.jpg
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59423067-L.jpg

Sohal
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59492223-L.jpg


here is the Sohal leaving and the Tusk is right behind him and ready to be cleaned
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59492225-L.jpg

Tusk with Flash
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59492238-L.jpg

One more of the Moray
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59423078-L.jpg

[don-n-sa]

And here is the reason that they are frantically getting cleaned

Purple tang after adding last week
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59423085-L.jpg
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59423094-L.jpg

[don-n-sa]

Now he is either getting better or about to be re-infested...he is eating very good, but the other fish are not letting him get cleaned right now...which is very odd to me.

http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59492209-L.jpg



Ok I am done for the night

[GaryP]

Great post Don. Thanks for the great info.

One quick question. Have you noticed any relationship between temp. and outbreaks of Ich? I have in my tank and added extra cooling to compensate for it. It seems that whenever the tank gets warm I have an Ich outbreak.

[hobogato]

he may be getting cleaned at night when you arent watching. i have almost the exact situation in my tank as far as the magically reappearing ich. the last battle was the addition of a clown tang. he had it for almost a month, but is now spotless for a couple of months. my other tangs wouldn't allow him to be cleaned during the day either, but the ich kept disappearing and reappearing daily, so i knew he was being cleaned. got up one night to make the dog stop barking and when i looked in the tank, there was the tang with the fire shrimp all over him - doing his job.

[GaryP]

As I recall, Richard made the statement that the white spots that result from Ich are not the actual parasite themselve, but overlying dead tissue and mucus. The parasite burrows deep into the tissue. I founds some other pretty good sites with info on Ich. "Know thy enemy"

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

[NaCl_H2O]

Great thread Don, thanks for taking the time to put this together ... a definate "keeper" :) My approach is much the same as you are doing now, but I think it takes a very stable and aggressively filtered tank to make this approach work well.

[don-n-sa]

One quick question. Have you noticed any relationship between temp. and outbreaks of Ich?

since I only run T-5's my tank does not get too hot

I have a fan that comes on with my lights...no chiller

My temp range is 78.5 - 80.5 depending on the time of year

Lately it has been between 79-80

[don-n-sa]

OK...last night right before I went to bed I shined my flashlight to see what was going on and caught my Porcipine puffer getting cleaned!!

I think this is amazing since puffers supposedly will eat everything in a reef...especialy shrimp ;)


http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59548886-M.jpg
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59548882-M.jpg
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59548889-M.jpg

[hobogato]

that is awesome!

[TheOtherGuy]

OK...last night right before I went to bed I shined my flashlight to see what was going on and caught my Porcipine puffer getting cleaned!!

I think this is amazing since puffers supposedly will eat everything in a reef...especialy shrimp ;)


Don- Yep. That is pretty amazing. You have many fish there that should take care of that shrimp. Yet, there he is doing his job cleaning away and nobody bothers him. The puffer and shrimp pic is classic. That is a great pic.

[scuba_steveo]

That cleaning station is too cool. A shimp that cleans an eels mouth and doesn't get eaten. That's true sysbiosis.

[lachrimae]

I didn't realize there were so many other closet garlic ick treaters out there!

I've always been cautious about expressing my views on the topic for fear of a thrashing, especially on RC and other similar sites.

I can't verify that your theory is correct but my experiences certainly corroborate yours.

By the way, are you saying that when you introduce a new fish, the existing fish also get ick again or is it just the new fish that shows signs of ick?

*Knock on wood*: I've never had a fish get ick more than twice (visibly).

Perhaps the quarantine period for an ick ridden fish doesn't necessarily cure it but immunizes it. I recall reading from some book that the # 1 cause of ick related death in fishes wasn't the ick but the improper treatment of ick.

[don-n-sa]

By the way, are you saying that when you introduce a new fish, the existing fish also get ick again or is it just the new fish that shows signs of ick?

Yes...

Here is my theory

The ick parasite is already in my tank since I do not QT my fish and I have seen it come and go on several occasions.

When a new fish is added...he/she is stressed out from the transfer from the lfs. The ick parasite picks up on some kind of chemical released by the new fish and immediatly attack.

The other fish in my tank start showing signs of ICK within a few days of the new addition...especialy the fish that are most succeptable ( like tangs)...but they quickly fight it off and win since they have done it before ( in theory )

The cleaning stations are immediatly set up and put on overtime...how the shrimp know I have no idea. Normally my cleaners are well hidden in the rocks and only come out at night. (Moonlights only) Due to the harzards of living in such a dangerous tank ( in theory)

If the new fish is healthy enough he/she will pull through and in the long run be able to fight off any future outbreaks better...again this is my THEORY...and remember, earlier in this thread I stated that I have only lost one fish to ICK ( Black puffer )...and that was the one that I treated with hypo and copper.

[GaryP]

I think I read somewhere that some fish are extremely sensitive to copper. I think that puffers may have been one of those. Richard or Mark, please jump in here since you guys treat a lot more fish in copper then any of us ever would.

[lachrimae]

"The other fish in my tank start showing signs of ICK within a few days of the new addition"

That's fascinating & different from what I have experienced.

Mine haven't ever shown signs of ick after their initial "immunization" even when a new fish is added that starts showing signs of ick. I had assumed that the newly added fish had brought ick along with it and that it hadn't come out of dormancy in my tank due to stress signals.

My thought is that fish become resistant or immune to ick and then (after 5 weeks), the ick can't reproduce since it can't host in any of the fish anymore. Ick = gone.

According to your experiences, the ick somehow remains dormant until the addition of a new/stressed fish. Is it your thought that ick continues to feed on the "resistant" existing fish during the period that no new fishes are added and no signs of ick are present? Ick must be feeding on some fish during the dormant period or it wouldnt' survive.

This would be an interesting topic to study...

[alton]

I also agree with the Garlic theory and the ability that fish can cure themselves. Had the same thing with a Regal Tang that got Ick, quarantined him for a couple of weeks and when I placed him back in the main tank the Ick came back so I started feeding foods laced with Garlic and in a couple of weeks no more Ick. The ony problem I have had with cleaner shrimp after a year they would rather eat fish food in lieu of parasites. So I have moved to cleaner wrasse.

[Richard]

Richard or Mark, please jump in here since you guys treat a lot more fish in copper then any of us ever would.


Well actually I decided a while ago to stay away from these types of ick threads. It's a complicated parasite with a complicated life cycle so it's hard to give a simple answer, which is what most people want. This thread is interesting though. I actually know all this stuff LOL, both through reading EVERYTHING and through experience, so I can shed some light on the topic if you want, but I can't wrap it all up in one post since there isn't just a simple answer to the subject.


Puffers are one of the fish that are sensitive to copper along with things like butterflies, centropyge angels, lionfish, sharks. That's all that comes to mind at the moment.

The qt/treatment approach is correct, the fish immunity approach is also correct. Lot's to know on both approaches.

Don's experience is a great example. So if you want Don, we can start with the treatment of the puffer and see what went wrong. First I would need to know what salinity you called hypo and more importantly what type (brand) of copper you used, how did you dose it, how long did use you it, did you monitor copper level with a test kit(what brand) throughout treatment and what were those levels.

[GaryP]

I would like some info on "cleaners." What is a cleaner shrimp actually cleaning? Is it the parasite or rather just dead tissue and mucus? I read something recently that said that cleaner wrasses are of no use in Ich control. Rather then eating Ich, they will only eat ectoparasites such as isopods. Surely you can handle that one with a quick post Richard. :)

Another thing I read recently is that Ich is fairly rare in the wild. The higher occurence of it in an aquarium was attributed by the author to higher then normal stress associated with shipment, transfer, water quality issues, and fish aggession in a confined environment like an aquarium. I'd probably throw nutrition into that list too since there is no possible way for us accurately reproduce the type of feeding that reef fish do in the wild.

[don-n-sa]

Richard,

Please dont stay away from this topic...we need you!!! :unsure

As for the details on the treatment on the puffer , that was quite some time ago , so I do not remember the details nor did I document the treatment.

I do know that the salinity was 1.009
the copper I used was the one that you can test for...I forgot which one, and yes I tested daily for the first couple of weeks then every three to four days after
after 6 weeks I stopped copper
after 7 weeks I slowly increased the salinity
after 8 weeks I added the puffer back into the display

I believe that I successfuly treated the puffer and he was free of ick , but since there was ick still in my display re-infection occured...combined with the overall weakened condition of the puffer from the treament he lost the battle rather quickly

I wish that I would of had my camera back then...the puffer was literally covered with spots, and I MEAN COVERED...It was a very sad sight

[Richard]

Well they are not eating ick because it is too small (~50um) if I remember correctly.

So the fish gets ick and the cleaners are basically just cleaning up the slime/mucous response(the white spots you see) of the fishes immune system. This is still a very good thing since this can help keep the fish from developing a secondary bacterial infection. The secondary infection is often what takes the fish down quick.

[alton]

I have loss fish to Ick in the past with cleaner shrimp in the same tank. I think they eat other parasites that bother the fish. Once again relieving some of that stress we are talking about. I have never had luck with copper and large angels. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, it's just I have never had any luck curing one with it.

[don-n-sa]

ok...it has been almost two weeks now since I added the purple tang that came down with ICK real bad.

HE seems to be doing fine...still eating great and is now being able to hang out in the open with the other tangs. To be honest with how bad it looked I thought that he was not going to make it...but not out of the woods yet. He still has spots on him and I cant tell if it is scarring or if it is active ICK.

Anyone know how long it usually takes a fish to be overcome and succomb to this disease? I am just wondering since he has made it this far, if he is on the road to recovery?????


PICS ADDED
Taken today

http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/61215153-M.jpg
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/61215155-M.jpg

[Richard]

Mine took about two months to be spot free all of the time. Just keep feeding him really well and he should fight it off completely since you have a big tank.

This kind of approach doesn't work too often in little tanks. If he was in a thirty gallon he'd probably be dead already since more parasites would find and attach to him and they just overwhelm the fish more easily.

[Richard]

Oh, it is still ick. I've never seen scarring from ick.

[don-n-sa]

Just keep feeding him really well and he should fight it off completely since you have a big tank.

This kind of approach doesn't work too often in little tanks. If he was in a thirty gallon he'd probably be dead already since more parasites would find and attach to him and they just overwhelm the fish more easily.

Ahhh...now this is a factor that I didn't even think of Richard, It really does make sense to me.

What other factors do you think might be involved here?

There are so many stories on other forums/articles about how ICK completely ravaging a tank and killing several fish with a matter of days/weeks

[Richard]

Yeah, people don't talk much about the size of the tank when deciding what course to take. When I try to help people I always ask about what kind of fish and what size tank. It makes a difference.

If it's name starts with Powder, then odds are against it surviving through without meds. Athough sometimes they do. So species makes a difference. Puffers are a tough one sometimes because they are pretty susceptible to it AND they are real sensitive to most meds especially copper.

Then there's also just how strong of a specimen it is. If you have a tang with a bad liver or some genetic defect, well adios. No way to tell those kinds of things from looking at a fish though.

The free swimming stage of ick will die in about 12 hours if it doesn't find a fish but after about 2 hours it's ability to actually attach to a fish begins to decline. So in a bigger tank that means a fish is less likely too become overwhelmed quickly and then build some immunity to it. They are never completely immune to it so once it's in your tank it is there for a long time. So new fish get to go through it when they are added although less sensitive fish/ more resistant species may never get it. The best approach I have found is pretty much what your doing - keep the water quality high and then feed feed feed!

There seems to be different strains of ick. Some seem to be REALLY virulent and will overcome a tank very fast but usually ick doesn't progress that fast. Usually when I here someone say they got ick and eveything died in just a few days then I assume it wasn't ick but some other protozoan like velvet, costia, etc.

Also, the very first time ick is introduced to a tank full of fish there tends to be alot more losses. I think that's because none of the fish have built any resistance so they are all good vectors for the parasite to reproduce and then overwhelm the fishes because of shear numbers.

[Richard]

Oh, and a stable temperature seems to amke a difference. If your daytime/nightime temps are bouncing around like a yoyo then that doesn't help at all.

[jason]

OK don't bash me for this but I fought with ICK about a year ago. It would come and go just as I read in this thread. I tried cleaner shrimp and all sorts of remedies. In some cases it would work for a month or so but come right back. I lost several fish to ICK. I almost gave up. No matter what I would do I would eventually get an outbreak of ICK. I was surfing the web and came across the "ecoaqualizer" and decided to spend the $100. I installed it almost one year ago and I have not had one outbreak of ICK since. I don't know if it's the Eco Aqualizer that stopped the ICK, but I am glad I have not had to fight ICK for the past year.

Please don't bash me :cry

[don-n-sa]

Please don't bash me :cry

ok...I had to read your post about 4 times looking for something to bash you about...nope couldn't find anything. :)

Actually this is the kind of stuff that I want to talk about in this thread...thanks for sharing Jason.

Ok...so what the heck is a ecoaqualizer??

no really...tell us about it

[Richard]

Ok...so what the heck is a ecoaqualizer??


A tube with rare earth magnets in it. http://www.ecoaqualizer.com/

I tried two of them. One at the store and one on my old 140 at home. They didn't do much of anything for us. Still got one in my closet at home. Don - it's yours if you want to try one.

Jason - don't worry about being bashed for stating something that worked for you. Lots O ways to skin a cat.

[jap1]

What a great thread. My clowns had a bad outbreak of ick last January. They were in QT since then and sadly, last week, I lost my male. Although they seem to have been completely cured of the ick for a long time now, the female always seemed to beat up on him. I think she may have killed him. Is this possible? He seemed to finally be healthy. Well the female is still doing well and looks very healthy. I'm going to put her back in the main tank this weekend and I am praying that she doesn't get ick again. I HATE ICK!!! BTW, I used hyposalinity along with lots of feeding of garlic soaked mysis along with Focus and Metronidazole. Seemed to have worked, but I will only know for sure when she's back in the main tank.

[jason]

Ok...so what the heck is a ecoaqualizer??



Jason - don't worry about being bashed for stating something that worked for you. Lots O ways to skin a cat.

This is what I like about MAAST!

When I saw the 180 day money back gaurantee, I had to try it. I don't know if it's been benificial but I have no complaints about it. 1 Year NO ICK :D :D :D

[GaryP]

As fat as that purple looks in the pic I'd say he is definitely feeding well. That's definitely a plus IMO. If you can get them to feed they will often pull through. Its when they seem to get lazy and lethargic and are not feeding that they seem to go fast.

If there is a plus to this situation, as Richard said, your other fish are get getting the equivalent of a vaccination against Ich. That's how vaccinations work, you expose the organism to a disease, or something like it, and they develop an immune response to the disease. The next time they see the disease, they recognize it faster and their immune system responds more quickly and the disease organisms are killed before it develops into a full blown outbreak. Its when their immune systems are compromised due to stress or malnutrition that the disease takes its toll. Richard's comments about temp. swings are an example of this. Just another type of stress. I have been dealing with that earlier this week and have been nervously watching for the first signs of Ich. That is also why I have never been a big fan of cutting back on feeding as a way to control nutrients. If you only look at it from a cost standpoint, phosphate remover or a refugium is a lot cheaper then replacing dead fish.

[don-n-sa]

Update.

It has been about a month and a half and guess what?

The Purple is still doing great, just about all cleared up. HE/she has been eating so good that I stopped adding garlic to the food about two weeks ago.

Here is a pic taken today.

http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/65669104-L.jpg

[don-n-sa]

So here is a before and after pic, and remember that I never removed this purple tang for treatment.

Before
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/59423085-M.jpg


After
http://don-n-sa.smugmug.com/photos/65669104-M.jpg

[JeremyGlen]

Glad to see the fish is doing great. It seems this post died or something.

I have been very lucky in my time as an aquarist to have only fought the ick twice, or one long battle if you look at it like this thread has stated. I had an outbreak in my 10g tank that just wouldn't go away. I hadn't added any fish, rock, corals, anything in over 3 months and along came the first hot day of spring. The temp outside went up like 25 or 30 degrees and that one tank got ick. I don't know how or why it happened, but it did.

I lost a fish or two to secondary infections. I fed the garlic to all my tanks just in case.

Every time I even see a suspect spot, I break out the garlic extreme and feed away. I have a feeling that the garlic in the food seeps out of the fish's skin/scales with the water that is constantly balancing the salt in their bodies. The parasites don't like the garlic and don't burrow. Its like all you older folks who had to take sulphur tablets before going and seeing the grandparents on the farm. Garlic acts as a deterant to the wouldbe predators lurking in the water.

[shanker]

I guess I have been lucky and have never had ICK in my tank, I have a 58g w/ a large Leaflip Grouper and a HUGE stars and stripes puffer, I have had the grouper for 4 years and the puffer for 2. I was told by Greg Bridgman (s/p?) at Bidgemans Aqua Life in Waco that garlic only stimulates a fishes hunger, is there any truth to this?

-Patrick