What to do....?

[Iknownothing]

Hello all. I am serious I know nothing nothing nothing about all of this. Had been to the fish store for years and always dreamed of having a AWESOME TANK<S> in my home. Last year I finally made a fortune and went to the store and bought what I think are awesome tanks. 1 190 gal for "fish" and 1 90 gal for "reef" told the people i wanted the best of everything i needed. Don't ask me what I was sold but I am thinking it is the right stuff. OK went home had the guy come set it up and tada he had to go b-4 he was totally finished didn't bring all the parts to finish the job. OK I just spent litterally thousands of dollars i mean thousands and I am anxious to get it up and running so i started in on getting it finished set up. The guy who answered the phone at the store told me to put in 5 gals of salt into my 190 gal. I did it. put in 20 "damsels?" 10 mins 5 were dead. 1 hour later 4 more. by the next day I think I had about lost them all. OK cool it's nature who understands it! Waited a day or so went back bought more "damsels?" put them in and prayed for good fortune. I have 1 left 6 months later. yep 1. OK have spent thousands on fish all have died I am talking about every kind of fish I could Imagine. ray's, sharks, puffers, triggers, angels,angler it's a long list makes me sad and very angry so I will stop. Paid the guy fronm the store to come $70.00 a hr. do all the maintenance check it out all the time water changes etc. weeks and months went bye and lost thousands of dollars of fish. Paid thousands of dollars in service wages. Finally I got so disgusted I said forget it man don't come here any more ever again in your life to the maintenance man. Yes i fired his ace. Got a NEW guy and he lasted about 3 visits and quit his job and moved out of town or something. Had personal issues I guess. Yep made his car payment for him just so he would be able to keep it from getting "repoed". The guy was great but would often not show or have time for whatever reason. I do kinda live far from him so I guess I understand. 45 minutes. keep in mind 70.00 Hr. he was being paid. Plus his car payment. But oh well chit happens. OK so there I was had fish tank with a clown left 3 rd try, 3' Zebra eel "never a problem" 1 blue tang 3 rd try, <miniautus?> grouper 3" never a problem and thats it in a 190 gal tank oh and couple hundred pounds of rock and some red pipe coral. WOOOOOOOOOOOOP-T-DOOOOOOOOOO! I add tap water when necessary and feed the fish every 3rd day. The eel gets fed about every 3 weeks. What a waist of time and money. OK THE REEF TANK! 90 gal. Got the tank brought it home with the live rock and water and sand and all the equip. Had the guy set it up and tada looked like we were off to a great start BAM he couldn't get the lights to work properly a week later came back and tada the lights worked. Guess what. I believe all my live rock that i spent so much money on had died. LOOKS like any other rock i have seen that is just rock nothing really different about it. nothing growing out of it just grey rock. Cycled the tank or whatever you do, went bought some cool corals and such put it in there and tada death once again thousands down the drain.Yep added little by little and had the dude to take care of it. POOF thousands of dollars out the window. OK that contributed to me fire'n the first guy and the second guy did what he did when he did it and then he was gone and I have done nothing to it since. The chems that you add 2 caps a week and 2 caps 2 weeks I do it when i remember. Add tap water constantly about 1 1/2 gal a day i do it every 2-3 days. This is where I am at now. I have "LIVE" rock that has been dead since it was abandoned with no lighting for a week after installed, 1 carpet anemone, some snails and little crabs, cool star fish, a plate thingy and a cool lion fish. Feed him about 1ce a week Live minnows. LOL people that know nothing like me love my tanks they are so amazed. I know nothing about the care and operation but i know what a good tank looks like. I refuse to spend hundreds let alone thousands of dollars to get my tanks super cool. I am truely disgusted with these "Fish pro's" that take all my money and guarantee stuff for 24 hrs. well i have things to do if it dies over night um i might not get to the fish store for a week so BAM there goes another 50-150.00 down the drain. UM I am a bit disgruntled can ya tell? Any suggestions as to what I should do about getting these things up and looking good without spending ton's of money? I thank GOD i have found this site. I am going to read and read and read and lern this stuff if it kills me. OH by the way I couldn't spend the money now if i wanted too. I'm Broke.LONG STORY. LOL RO water? I can't afford it. Sad HUH!

[miked78231]

**** never thought i would be the one saying this but before you start throwing money around you should do a lot of research. i got into the hooby not knowing anything and now i know just enough to get me by minus my random idiot questions.

[Bug_Power]

Just get you a RO filter $100 should do. A refractometer $40 on ebay, a $10 temp gauge and a nitrate test kit. For the most part for fish, that should be decent. Keep your salt at 35ppm and temps below 83deg. You don't want a large temp swing so 79-83, and as low as 74 degs on the low side.

[dwdenny]

Where to start. Research and read. You already spent tons of money what is another 200 on a good RO/DI unit. Tap water is no good. How long did the tank cycle? Ok live rock will go a while without lights as long as it had circulation in the water(pumps were running with it right). Please do research and read all the post you can before you take another step in adding fish or coral. This why before you start something you research and read all you can before jumping head first into something. HTH

[hobogato]

I am going to read and read and read and lern this stuff if it kills me.

well dont die, then who will take care of those fish and corals that stuck with you thru all this? ;)

seriously tho, that quote sums up the best advice you will get. READ and LEARN before you jump in over your head.

This site (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/) has alot of good info.

lots of basics like salinity, pH, Nitrogen cycle, etc. that you need to get right b4 you worry about making your tanks spectacular - Alive and well always has to come first - otherwise, as you already know, you will spend thousands to keep making your tank look spectacular for short periods of time, all the while killing countless things.

[brewercm]

Move to San Antonio and hire me to take care of it. JK

Read and ask questions until you fee good about it then go SLOOOOOOOW.

[Thunderkat]

An RO/DI unit is nice but does not take the place of having good bacterial growth in your tank, I know one person in particular that uses tap water and has a nice tanks. If you do use tap water make sure you use the chemicals to neutralize the junk. In the long run though you will like RO/DI because you will not have as many problems (heavy metals, silicates, misc junk). Don't put any more fish in your tank, just let the filters run with the water at the proper salinity to give time for the bacteria to grow, not having lights on for your live rock initially is actually a good thing so you didn't mess up there. I would recommend after you have let your tank run for about a month to then get a piece of live rock from an established tank. Once you see the plankton jumping around on your glass and in the water then you should be ready to start adding fish, be sure to read about the fish you want though before you buy them. Make sure the ones you like are easy to care for and will not fight with your other fish. Damsels are hardy but they LOVE to fight and attack other fish so that could be a problem for some of the more peaceful/slow fish. Also do not forget to drip acclimate your fish this is very important. Hopefully your dealer sold you a drip acclimator, if they did not get one, it is one of the most imporant pieces of gear and should only cost you around $5 dollars tops (or just get tubing and a needle valve).

The main thing to remember is just take your time!

[Iknownothing]

Thanks for the input. I will get the RO thing i will scrounge up a hundred bucks in the next few weeks and do it. So much info on this site.I did see lil things like lil micro worms on my glass at one point in my reef tank like 1/8 inch long and 1/2 a mm wide really small like you had to squint in good focus to see them. haven't seen them in a while. I probably should do a water change soon though I would hate to wait to long it has been WEEKS! The test kits i have and i am learning to use them. yes i did do the drip thing when brought new fish in. I am sooooo happy to have found this site. TY all so much. simple answers for what to me seems so complex.

[dwdenny]

We are here to help but with a long post like that we kind we dont know where to start. If you post more specific short questions we can be more help full or help lead to the right direction to research. Any pic of the tanks? Would love to see them when you get a chance.

[Reef69]

http://atlanta-smas.org/

[cpreefguy]

Research, learn, and be patient! I waited at least 3 months before adding any livestock to my first setup. Really, patientce is the key, or else you end up wasting a ton of money and killing a ton of stuff, as you know.

[Iknownothing]

Well thats what I will do. I will be specific and ask the questions in a more organized manner. I have a digital camera so I will take pictures and upload them. THanks again for all the help!

[Iknownothing]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/x3jade/ec2a5d7e.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/x3jade/a9636ac3.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/x3jade/a3c89fdf.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/x3jade/59cc993d.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/x3jade/395292e5.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/x3jade/4ded7261.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/x3jade/07078f21.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/x3jade/fishtanks018.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/x3jade/fishtanks022.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/x3jade/fishtanks026.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c211/x3jade/fishtanks031.jpg

[Iknownothing]

OK got some pic's up please have a look and tell me what you think i need to do. TY

[hobogato]

from the looks of those pics, i can say you definitely need to stop using tap water and start using RO to controll the algae and cyano. also get some clean up critters like microhermits (scarlet or blueleg) and some good snails like astrea, margarita, nassarius, and cerith. lots of potential in both setups, and i really like the eels and the miniatus grouper.

[dwdenny]

exactly what hobogato said. They look good minus the hair algea and cyano. But they are looking good. and when you get the RO/DI it should help a little. Not sure what type of flow you have but some say that Cyano likes low flow so if you add a little more to those areas it might help too.

[GaryP]

Are you in Atlanta, TX or Atlanta, GA?

[Iknownothing]

OK spent half the night cleaning. Got the tank looking way better. I wonder if thats cool to have those crabs and snails in there with the zebra eel. And if so why on earth would they not set me up with those in the first place. They did do that with my reef tank. I have some serious lights and have run them almost 24 7. I am going to get out of that habbit and start a timer on them. which they should have done from the start!!!!!!!! do you know what the things are in my reef tank? id them if possible and let me know. I TY for all the help!

[akm]

You said that you bought a bunch of expensive equipment, so can you tell us what it was? Lights, filtration, circulation... Also you don't want to run the lights that much, 8 hours is sufficient.

The thrid picture is some kind of brain, the fourth picture is a fungi coral, the fifth is a green carpet anemone which won't do well without high light, the sixth picture on the left are yellow polyps(Parazoanthus) and on the right is a derasa clam.

[hammondegge]

do you have any mechanical filtration or a skimmer. if so, how often are you cleaning/changing the media?
Cleanup crews are the way to go if your water quality is good. (follow Bug's advise).
The RO filter will stop you from throwing algae food in every day.
Shorten the period that the lights are on and the algae will diminish.
when your water quality has improved you can add a lawnmower blenny or yellow tang to help control the algae growth.

and like all others have said. read, read, read, and look, look, look at other tanks in person or on the internet. like tank of the months on this site and on others so you can see what it is supposed to look like. it really isnt that hard once you get a grasp on what it is supposed to be. you are building a little micro-environment that must at once run itself and receive a little helping hand from you. the better that it is set up to run itself, the less you have to do to maintain it, but the hard work up front has to be done.

and one last thing for now. before you considering adding anything live to the tank research the compatibility with everything that is in your tank and everything that you may be planning to add. post a full list of inhabitants here with a full list of your equipment and water quality test results when you have those. many on this site can help you make the right descisions and help you understand why. looking forward to hearing more about your success in the near future.
robert

[hammondegge]

i just read about the "capfuls of chemicals" that you are adding somewhat infrequently. you should probably find out what these are right away and post that here. you should not be adding anything (except daily RO topoff water, and twice monthly Saltwater changes) that you are not testing for. as you must know how it is affecting your tank.
Consistency / Stability is very important for these animals. they are designed to live in the oceans where nothing (temp, ph, calcium, alk, salinity etc) varies much and definitly not quickly.

[Ram_Puppy]

Well, Everyone says read, and man do I agree with that. The question is.. what to read!

websites:

Here obviously
www.wetwebmedia.com <-- previously mentioned
www.liveaquaria.com <--- I know, online vendor, but they have little info tabs on all their fish that are great 'quickie' references.
www.reefcentral.com <--- informative, but generally not as nice as we are here. reefcentrals tang police and others gut new people that don't do their research because they are holier than the rest of us. be careful what you post there.

Books <-- books are great but their info can get out dated QUICKLY, but on the whole, the core strategies of husbandry in the hobby stay about the same.

Bob Fenner and Anthony Calfo's "Reef Invertebrates" <-- teach you all you need to know and more about refugiums
John Tullok's Natural Reef Aquariums
Bob Fenner's "THe Concientious Marine Aquarist" <-- get this book and treat it like a bible.
Michael S. Palletta's "The New Marine Aquarium" <-- updated info
Michael S. Palletta's "Ultimage Marine Aquariums" <-- not a 'how to' but great for seeing how people do it, these are some of the awesome tanks in the hobby.
Eric Bornermans "Aquarium Corals: Selection, H usbandry, and Natural History"

there are many more, but these are all GREAT books.

[lachrimae]

Your plate coral & clam look good.

I certainly understand your frustration... makes me mad that "pros" take advantage of people like that. On the other hand, it's very good to hear that you are now set on doing a lot of research. I would suggest that you don't buy anything but that RO/DI unit until you have done a lot of research.

My concern is that it seems like you are adding things to the tank (top-off water, additives) because someone told you to without telling you why.

If you study hard for the rest of this weekend you can get the fundamental basics at least. Keep at it & you'll start becoming more confident and knowledgeable every week.

Here are a couple of links with a ton of articles. I'd highly suggest that you read, read, and read more until your eyes bleed :blink

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=33928

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/subject/chemistry.php

In the mean time, if you have test kits, do tests on each of the tanks for the following and maybe we can help you to avoid disaster for now:

- Salinity or Specific Gravity (you might have a swing arm hydrometer for this)
- Ammonia
- Nitrite
- Nitrate
- Calcium
- Alkalinity (dKH)
- pH
- Water Temperature

If you take some pictures and post them of the equipment that each tank uses, that would help (i.e. protein skimmers, filtration).
What kind of salt are you using and how often do you do water changes?
Do you have many snails or hermit crabs?

Mark

[matt]

Wow, this is really something...I only got through your first couple of photos and skimmed through your post. My initial advice would be to pay a visit to the new huge aquarium in Atlanta and try to talk to one of the aquarists that work there, see if there's a group of hobbyists in Atlanta that really understand reefkeeping. The problems you have can't really be solved on this board, I have a feeling you need someone to teach you, in person, how to deal with the basic issues of reefkeeping. So you need to find someone in your town, that does NOT work at a fish store, who can help. On this board we can point you in some of the right directions only.

Okay, so first on my list would be to sell (or maybe donate to the new aquarium in exchange for membership and/or help?) everything that's alive in your tanks before those animals perish as well. Sorry to be harsh, but I think you'd be best served in the long run by starting completely from scratch learning the basics. There are a few books that can help; first would be "The coral reef aquarium" by Ron Shimek, in which the basics are explained in plain english. Then, with the help of a knowledgable, non commercial helper, you can learn how to set up the equipment and control the water quality so that marine animals can survive. I'm sure you understand that these animals come from the ocean, which has a very specific environment that MUST be duplicated in your aquarium for them to live. They need the right temp, salinity, water flow, basic chemistry, food, and absence of toxic substances. You need to have a basic understanding of ALL of these issues or your animals will die. And, of course, each animal is different with regards to specific needs. Unfortunately, your fish stores don't care as much about this as they do selling you expensive stuff and replacement animals.

Keep all the equipment; you paid for it and it's probably good stuff, at least good enough. The reason your tanks are failing is that you don't yet understand how the system works to provide the right environment. Don't despair...you can learn it, but you'll need some help. And I don't mean help in maintaining the tanks; I mean help in teaching YOU how to do it. If you don't want to learn, meaning if all you want is the finished product, you'll probably never have success at this. You talk about how this guy and that guy couldn't get the stuff to work so you fired him...this says to me that you have been unwilling or unable up to this point to take the responsibility for learning to make it work yourself. Of course, I'm sure the stores had something to do with it...they're happy to sell you expensive animals and live rock, whatever, before you had the skills to take care of them.

Good luck, man! Find a new home for those animals, dry out the tanks, and start learning...in the long run you'll be MUCH happier. Right now you're probably so frustrated that any problem is going to be a little demoralizing. Pretty much everyone in the reefkeeping hobby went through a learning curve (we're all still learning) during which we made mistakes and lost animals. Your situation is a little extreme, though. Smile!

[GaryP]

Bob Fenner and Anthony Calfo's "Reef Invertebrates" <-- teach you all you need to know and more about refugiums
John Tullok's Natural Reef Aquariums
Bob Fenner's "THe Concientious Marine Aquarist" <-- get this book and treat it like a bible.
Michael S. Palletta's "The New Marine Aquarium" <-- updated info
Michael S. Palletta's "Ultimage Marine Aquariums" <-- not a 'how to' but great for seeing how people do it, these are some of the awesome tanks in the hobby.
Eric Bornermans "Aquarium Corals: Selection, H usbandry, and Natural History"

there are many more, but these are all GREAT books.

He must have been peaking at my library. Palletta's New Marine Aquarium and Fenner's Conscientious Aquarist are both good books to start with. They are basically written for people at your stage in the hobby. I recommend them highly as a place to start out.

[GaryP]

Pretty much everyone in the reefkeeping hobby went through a learning curve (we're all still learning) during which we made mistakes and lost animals. Your situation is a little extreme, though. Smile!
Amen. Unfortunately most of my learning curve occured before there was an internet and any of the great books that were mentioned earlier. My first "newbie" book talked about undergravel filters and air lift protein skimmers were "cutting edge" technology. My biggest mistake as a beginner was listening to the advice I got from fish stores like it was gospel. I'm not saying that you can't get good advice from a fish store, its just that the beginner cant tell the difference from good and bad advice. In addition, its sorta like a doctor diagnosing a disease over the phone. Rarely does the beginner give all the information necessary to make a good diagnosis. The folks at the fish stores do their best to help, but its hard to do by remote control.

[witecap4u]

Can you take some pics of the equipment, filters, lights.... This would give us an idea of what the behind the scenes setup is like, and if its adequate...Also some pics of what your adding to the tanks.

Also, if you are strapped for cash, you might consider selling one of the setups in order to get the other one going how it needs to be. Not sure if you want to go that route, but for a newbie, taking care of 2 tanks, large tanks at that, can get overwhelming.

cs

[Iknownothing]

ok did what you said tanks are looking alot better TY all so much.

[Iknownothing]

i will take pictures now so you can see the equipment and have it all up in the morning.