ok, so i have this dilemma...

[tucker]

so, im on week 1 of my tank...everything looks good, i have calcium for my live rock, 2 crabs, 2-3 snails, and of course, live rock and live sand...
i had 3 little blue fish(cant remember the name, but they were very cheap), like 2 bux each, they were to "kick start" my cycle... i purchased them under the pretention that my water levels were ok. by ok, i mean i was able to support something other than crabs and snails....

SO.....

fast forward to wednesday...woke up, the fish looked good, fed them the day before(they eat frozen brine shrimp) and couldnt find one of em...looked in the back, and i see the carcass... figured, no biggie, just too stressed out perhaps? went to work, came home, another one bit the dust. at this point im thinking, maybe its the food, or something else? perhaps the crab is gettin medieval on that ***? well, i have been in ft worth for the past three days and my brother called me on friday and told me that the last of my 3 fish ate it(died)....

now, im home, and it looks like theres green hair (<--literally) all over the tank. on the glass, on the sand, on the live rock, and on the crabs. im assuming this the algae? or something else? what possibly could it be and how can i fix this? im not too worried about the fish, but moreso this green stuff...

on a side note, my live rock is blooming wonderfully(despite the green stuff) and the purple growth is all over. i also have an aneneome *sp? growing out of one of my rocks...not to mention those little maroon "tree like" things are growing everywhere...

anyhow, if someone could give me some insight i would appreciate it. (on anything) im not discouraged at all, but rather curious as to what happened to my tank.

[Bug_Power]

what water did you use to fill it? Tap water? I'd suggest a MAJOR water change and check your nitrates.

[NaCl_H2O]

Can you tell us a bit more about your tank, when you set it up, how large, filtration, etc. Sounds like you are simply going through normal cycling (nitrogen cycle) and probably added livestock a bit early.

Are you testing for Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate?

[Viet-Tin]

Sounds like your tank isnt quite cycled yet. You should allow atleast 4-6 weeks to allow your tank to cycle. That green hairy stuff is hair algea and is normal as your tank grows. What type of water are you using? This could also be a problem if you using tap water which gives the algea nutrients to feed on. That anemone is most likely an aiptasia or mojano both are pest anemones and should be irradicated. Best thing you can do is continue doing your research and ask many questions and have fun.

[tucker]

tap water with conditioner, and salt mix. 20lbs live sand and about 20lbs of live rock for 3 days before adding the fish...

[tucker]

Can you tell us a bit more about your tank, when you set it up, how large, filtration, etc. Sounds like you are simply going through normal cycling (nitrogen cycle) and probably added livestock a bit early.

Are you testing for Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate?

hey guys, thanks for the responses...

its a 38gal jebo, with hood filtration and lighting.

i was told that the water would be a little premature so im assuming thats what did them(the fish) in.

but for the algae, do i just let it sit? do i do a water change? do i ____? the only thing living in there now is the crabs and the snails. nothing else live save for the rock and sand.

should i leave the water thats in there in there and continue to wait out the 4 week period? what happens to the algae?

i dont have any testing equipment other than a spec grav tester (which is 1.0126) and ammonia, nothing for nitrites and nitrates...

my rock looks really good though... :) :P

[tucker]

also, if it does happen in the future, and a fish dies, should i take it out and remove it or leave it in there for the clean up crew to take care of?

[NaCl_H2O]

The tap water isn't a very good start, although I ran my 125g successfully for over a year with tap before moving to RO/DI. You will fight a longer algae cycle with tap, and eventually your total hardness could crash your tank. You should look into an RO/DI unit, or buying RO water from a LFS.

3 days is WAY too soon for livestock, esp the crabs and snails, they will likely perish also. Do a google search on "Nitrogen Cycle" and read up on the nitrogen cycle that needs to take place before your tank is ready for livestock.

Probably a 55g tank? What type of filtration and water circulation are you using?

[Viet-Tin]

I would discontinue using tap water and do your regular water changes as your tank cycles. The algea should die off as the eat up all the nutrients. You might want to purchase some of those test kits as they will be needed to tell you when your tank is doing good.

[Viet-Tin]

forgot to add do water changes with ro water

[tucker]

alright, well, i figured that i would eventually start changing out the tap with ro water so that eventually i would have ro in there. are the snails affected by the water? i thought they just pulled oxygen from the water with gills or something...lol

forgive my ignorance.. :)

[NaCl_H2O]

Pull out the dead fish, or anything else that dies. You can also pull out any of the algae that you can get ahold of - all of these measures will be "Exporting nutrients". You likely have a high Ammonia level right now, then you will get a high Nitrite level (which will likely knock out your snails), then high Nitrate. 20-25% water changes once a week and siphoning up ditritus and any algae are the measures you should be taking now.

Test kits can be bought at most LFSs

Patience + RO water would be your best route ;)

Oh yea - Welcome to MAAST!

[Bug_Power]

FWIW, I've been using well water from the Aquafer or lake corpus christi on my 180. I haven't had any blooms that my buddy with RO didn't have. We both had some brown algea that poped up after about a week or two. Did large water changes and most of it went away.

[GaryP]

Yep ammonia got the fish. Ammonia and nitrates will probably get the snails. Even if your clean up crew did survive, there are not enough of them to scratch the suface. Just manually clean the hair algae and wait for the tank to cycle. The hair algae will overgorw the coralline algae and choke it out.

The hair algae is from an excess of phosphates that is coming from the food and possibly some from the tap water, but primarily from the food.

[Grace]

How often were you feeding your fish, tucker and how much?

(Ignore this if you already knew)
When having fish in your tank remember when you feed that their stomach is around the size of their eye, so they don't need that much, whatever they can eat without it touching to the bottom. Also, they only need to be fed every other day. Feeding everyday builds up alot of waste in your tank, and feeds your algea nutrients (that you don't really want to give them). Hope this helps some :)

[PeeperKeeper]

(which is 1.0126) and ammonia, nothing for nitrites and nitrates...


Unless that's a typo, your salinity is really low. It should probably be between 1.022 and 1.025 or so (depending on whether you're doing just fish or inverts too). You can bring it up with your water changes, since you'll be doing a lot of them.

I agree, RO is the way to go. Even if you didn't have any problems with tap water for a while, you'd never know when something could pop up in it until your tank started to go bad.

"Harvest" that hair algae as much as you can. As NaCL-H2O said, when you do that you are removing the nutrients that the HA and other gunk use to grow. Some people even grow macroalgae in a separate compartment of their sump (called a refugium) just so they can harvest it to remove those nutrients.

Here's the nitrogen cycle: You put food in, either it rots or fish and critters eat it and produce waste. Either way, it creates ammonia. You see an increase in ammonia level if you test. Ammonia-eating bacteria come along (from live rock, sand, etc.) and turn the ammonia into nitrite. As these bacteria proliferate, you see a reduction in ammonia and a nitrite spike if you test for it. Then a new kind of bacteria begin to proliferate and they turn the nitrite into nitrate, which is less lethal to fish, snails, etc. When these last ones establish themselves, you see a reduction in ammonia and nitrite and begin to see nitrate in your tests.

At this point, your tank is cycled and it's okay to introduce more animals, but VERY SLOWLY. Every time you add more fish to a new tank, you feed more, they produce more waste and your bacterial bed has to catch up.

Even nitrates aren't good for many invertebrates, which is why a lot of people are doing these deep sand beds (DSB's) as well as using lots of live rock (LR). The kind of bacteria that eat nitrates live in anaerobic conditions (no oxygen) which can be found in LR and DSB's. From what I understand, DSB's are difficult to do well, especially as a novice. LR is no problem though, as long as you know if it is "cured" or not. If it's not cured, there is still stuff dying off on it after its trip from the ocean and it can foul your tank because the bacteria can't keep up with the waste. At any rate, as a novice, it's better to control nitrates with water changes and LR, and to not try to keep the very sensitive organisms yet.

Anyway, welcome to MAAST. I'm new here too. Just found the site last week, but I've been doing SW tanks a while. Good luck with your tank and let us know how it goes.

[Grace]

The salinity shouldn't effect the fish, they'd do fine in 1.019. But it is a good reminder to keep the salinity at 1.023ish for reef aquariums ^^v

[loans_n_fishes]

I know in the past it was very popular to cylce a tank with live fish. However, it is not necessary to subject any fish to the stress of tank cycling. Just let your live rock/live sand do it. You can also feed the cycle with a raw table shrimp. To speed up the cycle, you can add biospira after you see your spike in ammonia. Remember to keep feeding your tank to keep the bacteria alive and multiplying.

If you still have some fish in your tank, buy some biospira immediately. It should make things a lot more comfortable for them. ^_^

[GaryP]

Also, they only need to be fed every other day. Feeding everyday builds up alot of waste in your tank, and feeds your algea nutrients (that you don't really want to give them). Hope this helps some :)
Sorry, but I have to disagree on this one. Starving your fish is not the way to control nutrients. Fish on a reef are eating almost constantly. Of course it has fairly low nutritional value. They are sorta like cattle, grazing constantly. Feeding them every other day is like giving them an all you can eat smorgasbord every other day. I would suggest that rather then cutting back on their food, feeding a smaller amount a couple of times a day is a better option. Some fish HAVE to be fed multiple times a day, Anthais for example. Water quality is an issue here, but limiting food is not the solution. Filtration and chemical treatment are a better option.

[Grace]

Also, they only need to be fed every other day. Feeding everyday builds up alot of waste in your tank, and feeds your algea nutrients (that you don't really want to give them). Hope this helps some :)
Sorry, but I have to disagree on this one. Starving your fish is not the way to control nutrients. Fish on a reef are eating almost constantly. Of course it has fairly low nutritional value. They are sorta like cattle, grazing constantly. Feeding them every other day is like giving them an all you can eat smorgasbord every other day. I would suggest that rather then cutting back on their food, feeding a smaller amount a couple of times a day is a better option. Some fish HAVE to be fed multiple times a day, Anthais for example. Water quality is an issue here, but limiting food is not the solution. Filtration and chemical treatment are a better option.

I wasn't talking about anthias though. Yes, anthias have to be fed every day, twice a day at that. But green chromis' are really hardy and can be fed every other day. Tons of people feed there fish every other day, including our family. It's not a wrong solution Gary, but it's an opinion that works. It's okay to have different opinions but it's not okay to say I'm completely wrong on the subject. Our fish are quite fat and healthy, they have no problems being fed every other day.

[GaryP]

My opinion is simply based on the research that has been done on reef fish diets. I guess you may do OK if all you have is damsels in your tank. Who has that? What about tangs, or angelfish? They are grazers, not gorgers. You can't feed a cow like you feed a tiger. My point is that we have mixed populations of fish in our tanks. We have to feed the tank based on the lowest nutritional demand of the fish in the tank, not the highest.

[Grace]

I think you misread how I got to my opinion. He gave me his situation, that he had 3 chromis'. He didn't say, he had tangs, rabbitfish, mandarins, anthias, or anything else that has a specific diet. Please don't "jump" on what I write just because I may be new, or you think yourself superior. It doesn't make a good judgement. I was giving what I know to his certain situation. Thanks.

[hammondegge]

round 1 - Grace :D

[GaryP]

Grace,

I apologize if you thought I was "jumped" on you. That was not my intention. I just said that I disagreed. Its just easy to take things out of context here.

[hammondegge]

round 2 - Gary :)
on diplomacy pts

[GaryP]

Here is an interesting article that I am basing my coments on:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-02/rs/feature/index.php

[tucker]

alright, cool...

check this out...

i did a salinity test last night. it was right at about 1. 030. little above recommended value.

anywhoo....

i went to heb tonight and picked up 4 gallons of distilled water. took out 3 gallons of the original water and added 4 gallons of distilled water, no salt solution. is this going to drop my salinity levels too much? im thinking i will test the water in an hour or 2 and add salt solution as needed.

i also skimmed out a majority of the hair algae. i noticed earlier(before the water change) that its not really growing and it looks like most of it that was forming over the sand bed is gone and the remainder is on the rock. i managed to "sweep" some of it under the sand bed and its nowhere near as bad as it was yesterday...

on my ammonia levels...i have one of those "stick-in-the-tank" ammonia testers and it hasnt moved from the yellowish color. according to the directions, my ammonia levels are ok...

i added 1 tbsp of calcium for my live rock and my crabs and snails are still very active...

i also noticed that i have 2 starfish! i dont know where they came from( i didnt buy em), but i saw one earlier, came home from work, and he moved about 2 inches. hes very small, about the size of a cheerio. there is another, i can only see a "tentacled" arm but this one is much bigger. where are they coming from? are they microscopic in size and were on the live rock?


edit: while i was at heb, i noticed they had a few different kinds of water...obviously i purchased distilled water, but heres what they had...

spring water
drinking water
distilled water
purified water
mineral water

nothing said reverse osmosis water...did i just not find it or? nothing said r/o on the label and i perhaps i just didnt see it? doest it go by another name?

[C.Mydas]

Um RO and distilled are not the same. RO will be at your fish store or you could hook one up under your sink. Honestly time to go do some research. Buy a book, search the net etc. http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/a_3.htm?terms=saltwater+aquariums for starters. And talking to the guys who work at a fish store is NOT doing research.

You're obviously more than willing to put the work in but if you dont do some serious research fast and find out what you are dealing with you are going to be constantly battling the simplest of issues and never progress beyond them.

[Reef69]

Gonna go out on a limb here but..This tank started out wrong and its going to end up wrong. Those "stick in" test kits dont work..Anything other that RO water will cause way too many problems in the long run..This saltwater deal isnt easy and you need to go by the book when you start it up..RO (not even gonna say DI, dont wanna cause another thread on what DI is..) water, a perfect salinity check, watch your cycles, dont add supplements..What are you adding Ca. again for?? your rock and snails???...They dont need calcium right about now...Honestl. (and people dont like honesty).. Id go buy a book like C.Mydas said, research on reefcentral.com (lots of stuff to read) and you will get a rough idea on what it takes toset up a saltwater tank..

[hobogato]

if you dont want to buy book(s) you can get some good basic and not so basic info at this website - i agree with the previous two posts, you need to re-think and re-work what you have and how you do things.

EDIT : that sounded harsh, but wasn't meant to be. i just know and have helped many people who have the same problems you do because they tried to skimp on one thing or another. truth is, your setup is the cheapest thing in this hobby, and when you stock your tank with hundreds(maybe even thousands) of dollars of livestock, you don't want to lose things because of some basic problems.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/

[GaryP]

1. Just add the Distilled water slowly so that you don't bring your salinity down to fast and shock your critters. Distilled water is run through RO/DI before it is distilled, so it is fine. The high salinity could have contributed to the death of the fish. Just one more source of stress. It makes the fish's kidneys work harder trying to maintain their fluids levels.

2. I assume you are using a solid calcium supplement like Turbo calcium. You can't add it as a solid. That is a waste of product and time. It just causes your alkalinity to fall because it precipitates as calcium carbonate. It needs to be dissolved in the distilled water first and then slowly dripped in. I agree that calcium is not a major concern right now. I would be more concerned with your alkalinity. You can do the same thing with solid buffer to raise your alkalinity. However, in a tank your size, supplements shouldn't be a big issue if you are doing weekly water changes.

3. Get a reliable test kit for ammonia and nitrate that gives you an actual numerical value. Those stick in the tank things are only good to let you know you have a problem when a crisis occurs, not as a good way to determine actual values or how bad the problem actually is.

4. The little starfish are probably asterinas star. Do they have 6 legs and look like a Jewish Star of David? If so, that's an asterina. Some people freak out over them and say they kill corals. I have hundreds in my tanks and have never had a problem with them. The only good way to get rid of them is a certain kind of shrimp that you are not ready for right now anyway.

Hope that helps.

[Reef69]

The only good way to get rid of them is a certain kind of shrimp that you are not ready for right now anyway..

Yeah, if you get ich buy a cleaner wrasse and a ton of neon gobies..and if you get apstasia buy copperband butterflies and peppermint shrimps..If you get redbugs..you may want to buy a dragon pipefish.. :lol ..can we stick on the fundamentals of reefkeeping??????