RamPuppy's 120 cube - Oceans Motions - Replacing

[Ram_Puppy]

This is the tank itself. pay no attention to the clutter around it (Note the college dorm crap on the wall!) this room is in the middle of a MAJOR overhaul, everything in it is on death row. :) (except the tank)

It is a 120 gallon cube, 30" X 30" on all sides. the left back has all the plumbing done, and handi-foam sprayed over it to hide all the plumbing.

http://www.digitalflytrap.com/images/cube_construction/DSCN1116.jpg

This is a closeup of the handi-foam with some old liverock pieces and dead coral stuck in it. There are some gaps (I ran out) that I will fill in with more foam and rock when I get more foam in. It will take a few months, but this stuff will get covered with coraline algae first, and eventually star polyps and zoanthids, it will blend right in with the live rock. I had trouble making it stick on the left side, so I started adding in egg crate. On the right side of the picture above you can see pieces in place for that later this week. obviously there is some mess on the sides, that is what razor blades are for. :)

http://www.digitalflytrap.com/images/cube_construction/DSCN1108.jpg

This is the Sump, it's 26" on a side. On the right side there is a large chamber, this is for a relatively new concept called a deep carbon bed, and is why the sump is custom made.

The 3rd smaller chamber is for tossing in pillows of purigen or other chemical reagents that polish the water. It empties at the bottom.

http://www.digitalflytrap.com/images/cube_construction/DSCN1114.jpg

These two pumps and the associated nightmare of plumbing are the core of the system. The pump on the left is a closed loop notice the gray cylinder, that is the oceans motions 4-way wave maker. Water will only come out of 2 pipes at a time. the 3 open ended pipes are the only unfinished portion of the plumbing.

The pump on the right is the return pump on the sump. the two ball valves that go nowhere are for future expansion. (refugiums)

The Plumbing is an exercise in compromise, I wanted to make it more modular so I could pull stuff out, but there simply wasn't space. If there is a leak in there, it will be a nightmare! Heres hoping there won't be! Truth be told the whole plumbing architechture has me extremely worried, even more so it's my first real attempt at it.

http://www.digitalflytrap.com/images/cube_construction/DSCN1113.jpg

I am now waiting on the handi-foam order to come in so I can finish the right side. Out of the picture are 120 lbs of carib sea special grade.

I am starting the tank w/ reef crystals salt, but I am always one for experimenting, so before any livestock (except live rock) goes in, I am switching over to the new SeaChem reef salt, I have a bunch of it I got for free allready from a friend, but I want to finish off my old salt first.

more to follow later this week!

Oh, the front of the stand is done, just not installed. It is oak paneling w/ poplar trim. The platform the pumps are on is temporary, I am building a end table type cabinet to hide the pumps that will match the stand, and the canopy which is also still under construction.

[ansonluna]

Cool!!! It's coming along nicely!!!!!

[Ram_Puppy]

slowly, but it is reaching critical mass now.

I just ordered some of oceansmotions 1" flext tubes

[ReefOne]

Very Nice!

Looks like you could use a ROIII setup,lol, j/k. Keep posting as you progress.

[TexasTodd]

Cool, can't wait to see it up!

Todd

[Ram_Puppy]

I am guessing ROIII is a reverse osmosis system? I allready have a 9 stage. :)

[ReefOne]

no, Reef Optix III DE setup. I was just messing though, trying to sell mine.

[Ram_Puppy]

Ahhh... guess what. I have 2! :)

2 x 250 watt HQI RO3's driven by Icecap ballasts.

[ReefOne]

darn!

That's gonna be so sweet though. What temp bulbs are you going to run on this monster?

[Ram_Puppy]

10K Ushio to start and a 20K Ushio (not branded by ushio but it is an ushio bulb, can't remember the name though.)

[gjuarez]

Very nice Ram. THe pendants will light up the tank very nicely. What are your plans for livestock?

[Ram_Puppy]

Livestock:

Pair of maroon Clowns (allready paired and ready to go)
Purple Tang
Lemon Tang
1 More Tang (not sure which)
2 helfrichi Firefish
3 PJ Cardinals (have two of them allready, but I believe it is better to have odd numbers w/ this fish as the two I have now always fight.)
1 male, 1 female green mandarin

I am still undecided on whether I will get a flashlight fish or not. If i do, it will be the last fish to go in, and only if I can:
1) arrange an adequate cave space for it
2) have the fuges up and running and providing an over abbundance of of pods for him and the mandarins... I doubt I can do this so we will have to see as it 'goes along'.

invert wise, both soft and hard corals
rose anemone
coco worms
christmas tree worms
fire shrimp

I am worried about an urchin actually eating the foam in back, so when I get one, I will try it and see how it works, if not, then I will pawn him off on one of you (tuxedo.)

[Richard]

You gonna do the carbon thingy in the sump?

I can't wait until 2008 when you get water in it...LOL...HURRY UP!

[Richard]

Let me know how many cans of foam it takes to cover the back.

[Ram_Puppy]

what i have done so far took 2 cans, but it also didn't stick well w/out the egg crate, i am hoping less will be needed on the other side. but right now I am figuring a toatal of 6.

[blueboy]

quite a project! that's really looking nice, i'm anxious to see that running.

[donniekim]

Can someone explain to me the "deep carbon bed" method and theory behind it?

[Ram_Puppy]

Richard can probably do a much better job, but this is my understanding of it:

You use the Carbon that richard sells, I forget the name but I think he is the only distributor in the area. It's not special other than it's grade and porosity, I remember richard telling me how broad the applications for this stuff are, (not all of it) but the one that stuck in my head was that it is used to remove the odor from the air in slaughter houses. I used to work in a building that had been a slaughter house 30 years before and every now and again you could catch a wiff of it. I respect anything that can take care of that odor. uch.

Water is not forced through a deep carbon bed, it flows over it like a mud bed or like water through a refugium, slow and calm. bacteria colonize the carbon, both aerobic and anerobic (so they can complete both halves of the nitrogen cycle).

The Carbon absorbs waste, holds it, the bacteria process it and release it, using a portion of the carbon for their own biological needs as well. What you end up with, in theory, is a chemically renewing carbon bed that doesn't go bad (at least not very quickly) and continually re-processes itself all the while biologically filtering your tank as well.

If you search back you can find times where richard talks about how heavily he feeds, but he hardly ever has to deal with that film that grows on everyones glass.

I think the best way to think of it is like an extra refugium.

[donniekim]

Thanks Ram, I think I understand, but if it flows "over" it then how does it get both aerobic and anerobic bacteria? Wouldn't some of it have to be exposed to air?

Maybe Richard will let me know how this works exactly! I'm really intrigued by this idea.

[Ram_Puppy]

the water coming into the bed (at least in my sump) comes right out of the sumps tower, so it is freshly oxygenated. the carbon at the top of the bed will be aerobically active, but the water at the bottom of thebed will turnover less, and anerobic bacteria will have their home in the carbon down there.

[hobogato]

the water has oxygen in it. aerobic bacteria use the oxygen in the water, and facultative anaerobes use oxygen if it is present, but if they are deep enough in the sand bed or this case carbon bed, there is no oxygen left in the water by the time it gets down to them so they change nitrate to nitrogen gas among other things.

wow - that was a long sentence huh?

[Ram_Puppy]

but it worked!!!

[donniekim]

I see now
Thanks guys

[don-n-sa]

FYI....I started a "carbon fuge" like the one that is being talked about here. I added the fourth 5# bag about a month ago, so I still am waiting for the bacteria to establish itself...Richard said that it should take about 4 months. If this works on my tank that has 80++ nitrates then it will be a MIRALCE. I have messy eaters combined with heavy feeding and way too many fish. :)

[Ram_Puppy]

you know Don, I have had my carbon sitting in an old oceanic bucket w/ salt water, sealed, for about 3 months... when I started it, I threw in some old bio-spira I bought a long time ago, I am sure it had long expired...

but I wonder if your fuge wouldn't get up and running faster if stopped the flow on it for an hour or two and dumped an entire bottle of TLC on it and then let it settle, OR better yut, used a turkey baster to penetrate deeper into the bed and release a TLC culture there.

NO good thing happens fast in this hobby, but I still wonder. :)

[don-n-sa]

that is a great idea Ram...I will get some this weekend. 8)

[Ram_Puppy]

lol - glad I could help you spend your money. :)

[Richard]

I think there is a misunderstanding of what the carbon bed thingy is supposed to do. TLC is a live culture of aerobic nitrifying bacteria that is they take ammonia convert it to nitrite then convert that to nitrate. So they will not help at all.

The idea behind this method is to do two things.
1.) Reduce nitrate. Anaerobic bacteria complete the nitrogen cycle by reducing nitrate. The end result of this is nitrogen gas which just vents off the water. In waste water treatment these bacteria are "fed" an AVAILABLE carbon source, such as acetate, to favor these types of bacteria.
2.) Reduce Phosphate - Anaerobic bacteria called polyphosphate accummulating bacteria (PAB) are used waste water treatment to reduce phosphate levels in waste water. My basic understanding of these bacteria take phosphate out of the water, store it as polyphosphate, and then use that as an energy source to consume organics out of the water. What a bonus right? In waste water treatment these bacteria are "fed" an AVAILABLE carbon source, such as acetate, to favor these types of bacteria.

HIATT Tribase Carbon is a pelleted and very porous carbon. Each pellet contains 3 different types of carbon one of which is said to be an AVAILABLE carbon source for bacteria, according to the manfacturer. It is this AVAILABLE carbon which would make this carbon "special". If that is not true then this method would not be any different than any other DSB of sand, crushed coral, or any porous material. The key is an AVAILABLE carbon source. Let me know if I need to type AVAILABLE any more...LOL.

So the idea was to do a deep bed (6") of this carbon and see if nitrates and phosphates were removed. On my 215 I feed ALOT! I added a huge unicorn tang about a week or so ago so my feeding has increased alot more. On a light day now I am feeding the equivalent of about 12 cubes frozen food, 1 sheet of seaweed selects, and cyclopeeze. On my days off I feed aditional frozen food and some flake (Prime Reef) also. I just tested last night and my nitrates are at .2 ppm using salifert low range test and my phosphate is undetectable using seachem's phosphate test kit.

Can I prove this works...NOPE! But I do not have a dsb, refugium, no macro algaes, my skimmer collects about a cup of skimmate every week. So I can't see how this could be unless it was working.

For some reason it always seems to take 4-5 months to start working. Don't know why. Also, it will not give great results if you have some huge nutrient sink such as a non functional dsb or large amount of accumulated detritus. Nothing will fix that except cleaning up the tank.

I first tried this as a "modified" Haitt method since I had a hard time believing the Haitt method could work since it goes against everything I know (or thought I knew). The full blown HIATT method involves using the recommended amount of this carbon along with the manufacturers bacteria culture. This method is supposed to do all of the above aerobically and be so efficient that there is no need for a skimmer at all. I will be trying this system ths spring. The science behind it is controversial but I think it is going to work. I don't care about the theory, just interested in results. If you want more info on this method check out the link below. In that thread I posted a link to a DIY Haitt setup if anyone wants to give it a shot before me.

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66381

[Ram_Puppy]

Dang Richard, I am sorry I misunderstood the science you were telling me, but what I now understand is far more exciting because were talking about a far more efficient biological filtration system than we have seen in the past - essentially carbon is acting like nitrous in a drag racer, except that is a stable long term solution.

[Bill S]

Richard,

As I am just setting up mikeyboy's old 215, I MIGHT be interested in testing this theory... I don't have a sump/fuge picked out yet. Any thoughts?

P.S. - I'm a molecular biologist by education - shouldn't I know this stuff? :wacko But, it's been WAY too long ago!

[Richard]

bstreep - if yo mean the anaerobic method then I use a sump just like the one ram has in the pic. he little fuge section is just filled with 6" of the carbon. Do not put lr on top of it becase you need to keep the carbon free of building up detritus and lr rock will shed a lot of it and give you problems.

ram - just noticed you have bioballs in the sump. You can do what you want of course, but IMO they will do nothing for you biologically and will only serve to trap detritus and lower your ORP and eventually become a nutrient sink.

[Richard]

Oh...one last thing that seems to be tough for people to get past sometimes. In either the aerobic or anaerobic method the carbon is NOT intended to be used as a carbon. That is it adsorbs organics then you toss it and replace it.

Instead it is being used as a permanent media for bacteria to colonize. That is why the carbon must not be allowed to become clogged with detritus. Of course it will initially adsorb organics as any carbon does. The manufacturer says about 5 years before it will need to be replaced. My first test tank has been going about 3 years with the anaerobic method.

[Ram_Puppy]

Just got done reading through the other site, I am going through HDL's site as well...

Richard, how much do those big bags of Tribase weigh, I only have one right now, I think I will need another to totally use this method.. but my brain is working again...

I am thinking I could use 6" PVC pipe and put it all inside the stand, wound around like large intestine... but i probably won't.

[don-n-sa]

Great info Richard...thanks alot...I believe that my tank will be a great test for this theory...1 mor month to go!!!

[Ram_Puppy]

Richard, the more I think about it the more I think I might go full bore on the HIAT method along with you (I will kee my skimmer though), with a few modifications.

1) I have a ton of 6" PVC laying around my famly ranch from the construction of the house that I can use as tubing, I even have some endcaps and couplers I think. so my pipes would be larger.

2) I hate Magnum Filters w/ a passion. I will not knock that they are absolutely incredible when it comes to cleaning, but maintenance wise they are a nightmare. so I may just add another chamber BEFORE the carbon (small) and fill it with filter fiber and be abo****ely religious about changing it once a week.

3) I don't want to add another heat source to the tank, so I will just use one of those handy dandy future expansion spaces I programmed into the tank from the beginning. Aren't I smart.

I think I have all but a few of the materials I need to make this happen at home allready.. all it will take is a little poking around. I will finish plumbing the tank and get it up w/ water in it (as soon as the foam comes in, it shipped today so it may be next week before water goes in) but once the important plumbing is done, I think i will go ahead and build me on of these filters.

only one thing to consider now... what do I do with the chamber that WAS going to be my deep carbon bed. :)

[Richard]

Richard, the more I think about it the more I think I might go full bore on the HIAT method along with you (I will kee my skimmer though), with a few modifications.


I am planning to still use a skimmer as well. First to see if it will not skim anything as he says and second to provide excellent gas exchange since proper aeration is required for this method he says. Can't think of a better aerator than a skimmer.

The big bags of carbon are 5lbs. His formula for calculating the amount (lbs) of carbon required is water volume X .1667 = # lbs of carbon.

[don-n-sa]

[quote]
The big bags of carbon are 5lbs. His formula for calculating the amount (lbs) of carbon required is water volume X .1667 = # lbs of carbon.

I am not smart enough to figure that one out...so in my system ( about 300g water volume) ...how many pounds should I use?

I have 4 bags in their already.

thanks!

[Richard]

50 lbs.

That is for the aerobic method. My anaerobic method I am using much less. If I remember right. I used 12 lbs or so on my 215. My thinking on the anaerobic method is just that you need 5-6" depth to achieve an anaerobic environment. Snake (the manufacturers name) says that in my method his bacteria will not work and the carbon is eventually being colonized by other anaerobic bacteria and that is why it takes so long to start working.

[Richard]

Don, you could add some of his bacteria to the area and see if that will speed things up for you. Since the top of the carbon bed is aerobic it might help speed things along a bit. It's called "Right Now Bacteria".

[Ram_Puppy]

Ok, so assuming a final total volume for me around 200 gallons, I would need 6.6 bags worth of the stuff.

I think what, maybe 3 x 26" long tubes of 6 inch PVC would do it.

configure it like an RO filter sort of.

prefilter canister laying horizontal across the top w/ a union ball valve on either side. one side feeds it, the other goes into the first stage of Carbon on the top. Then a pipe between the next stage on the bottom, and the next stage exits on the top, and goes back into the tank.

What do you think about these other products richard, the Metal Gone and PH rocks? are you going to give those a try as well?

[Richard]

What do you think about these other products richard, the Metal Gone and PH rocks? are you going to give those a try as well?


PH Rock - I cannot comment since I have not used it. On my setup this spring I will employ the carbon torpedo canister followed by a canister containing the recommeded amount of ph rock. The theory is carbonic acid (CO2) produced by all the aerobic bacteria reacts with the ph rock and and releases ca & alk. Kinda like a ca reactor without a co2 tank. We shall see how it works.

Metal Gone - never used it. I forgot what he said it does...duh.

Chloradsorb - This is a dechlorinator +++. It cost big bucks with the epa to make certain claims so many of his products will simply say "prevents deadly eutrophication". Kinda of a catch all I guess. Basically, it gets rid of the bad stuff and leaves the good stuff. Anyway, he sent us a bottle of this stuff at least a year ago and told me to use tap water treated with it instead of ro/di. On my sps tank...yeah right! So it sat on my desk until two weeks ago. We've just started using it and doing water changes with tap water and chloradsord. I have done one large water change on my home sps tank using it and tap water. Corals stayed happy but I haven't used it enough yet to have a solid opinion.

Coral & Liverock Stimulator - You can read about that on my post in the retailers section "New Coral Food".

[Richard]

Ram - Since you will now be doing this setup before me...If you want I can ask Snake to come onto this thread and assist you with the setup. I don't know all the details as far as required flow rates through the carbon and such.

That is, if it's cool with you and the maast powers that be :unsure

[Ram_Puppy]

ok, so his formula for PH rocks is .6 tims the gallons = ph of 8.6

so .6 * 200 = 160lbs? if this stuff is not really dense then it's going to take up some realestate.

[Richard]

Also, on my setup I wil not be using a mechanical filter before the carbon. I hate mechanical filtration. Instead I will just do the plumbing with valves so that I can just turn the pump off, hook a hose up to it, turn some valves to reverse the flow through the canisters, and just backflush the canisters. Just like you do on a pool sand filter, if you've seen those.

I think he said backflushing 1-2 minutes per week will keep it clean. This works out well for me since I'm a firm believer in smaller weekly water changes.

[Richard]

ok, so his formula for PH rocks is .6 tims the gallons = ph of 8.6

so .6 * 200 = 160lbs? if this stuff is not really dense then it's going to take up some realestate.

Yep, you will use a good amount. Of course, it is much heavier than the carbon. Like I said, I cannot vouch for the ph rock since I haven't used it yet. You can always easily add that later and let me be the guinea pig first.

[Ram_Puppy]

well, backflushin like you say WOULD be easier... ok, you convinced me. The less I have to open it up the better.

[Ram_Puppy]

OK... Today was eventful!

I plumbed in one more of the closed loop returns, and I found the 2 bottles of missing handi-foam so I touched up the bear spots on the left side and foamed the bottom half of the tank on the right side.

Now here is where I am stupid. I should have put the pipes in and foamed it all in before I ever put the tank on the stand, while it was on it's back. I would probably have used less foam. AS it is, The left side fo the tank was easy to get to, the right side is not. I actually had to stand ontop of a old college dorm room fridge I had over there to get the foam all the way to the bottom.

This is where I lost my balance, fell, scraped my hands on god knows what when i hit the floor (the room is currently an explosion of tank crap and PVC parts) AND hit my head on the tank stand. I didn't go unconcious but I think I did get a mild concussion off it. I have a slight headache right now.

Anyhow, don't follow my example there should you ever have that peculiar confluence of furniture and events.

** Don't stop using handi-foam once you start. By the time I got back up and started doing it again the stuff had cured in the tube and wouldn't fire anymore. so I think I lost about 1/3 of a can.

I also added 2 bags of caribsea special grade to the floor of the tank... I bought another 80 lbs, but I think I am stopping with the 80 allready in there as I don't want to take to much space up in the tank with sand, and I allready decided to have a mud refugium which will handle the DSB activities. (if they are even needed if I go with the HIAT system.) (It will need to be a deep mud bed anyhow for the sea grasses.)

[hammondegge]

richard - i read up on the carbon and the bacteria. i am going to try this too. maybe we should start a new thread on this so that we dont stomp on Rams Cube. Actually i will do that right now.

[Ram_Puppy]

nahh... it's part of my cube now, so I don't mind it here! :) besides, it works towards one of those huge reefcentral'esq follow along threads! :)

and hey.. WHERE IS THE SYMPATHY FOR MY BUMPED HEAD! :)

lol

[hammondegge]

well there's that...i think this topic could be epic. it sure seems to excite people no matter thier allegiance

...do you want sympathy, an apology, or an ice cream cone ......... >_< ;) :P :D bump

[Ram_Puppy]

lol! :) I can't pass up ice creme! :)

I chatted with Pete today and he's got me back on track for my gravity fed refugium. gonna use heavy duty brackets and lag the sucker right into the wall. I don't know how bit it will be just yet, but I am excited that it's back on the menu.

So right now it's looking like:

Display - 120 gallons
Sump - ~ 30 gallons
Gravity Fed Fuge - ~ 30 gallons
Mangrove pot and live rock fuge - 10 - 15 gallons

Filtration:
Remora Pro skimmer
HIAT method bio filtration
-3 torpedoes 2 Tribase Carbon, 1 Mineral Rock/PH rock

I am all about simple, and if this mineral rock keeps me from having to do a lot of adjustment and eventually purchasing a kalk reactor, then man, i am SOOO on board.

[hammondegge]

i am interested to see how stable the PH rock is ~ Calcium no biggy, but PH/Alc? also i've been wondering if the 3base carbon and the bacteria produce enough acid to break down the calcium in the ph rock what does it do to a system without the rock???? seems like it would be driving the ph down pretty aggressively.

[Richard]

also i've been wondering if the 3base carbon and the bacteria produce enough acid to break down the calcium in the ph rock what does it do to a system without the rock???? seems like it would be driving the ph down pretty aggressively.


I can't answer this very well. Since I have not used the full blown system yet. Proper aeration is the most emphasized point in this system, without it it will not work he says. I suspect that even without the ph rock the co2 from respiration will just vent off like it does in any other properly aerated sytem. So it probably isn't that much co2 or at least nothing compared to a co2 tank on a Ca reactor. This might be why you use so much ph rock, I'm not sure.



Ram - Since you will now be doing this setup before me...If you want I can ask Snake to come onto this thread and assist you with the setup. I don't know all the details as far as required flow rates through the carbon and such.

That is, if it's cool with you and the maast powers that be :unsure

????

[GaryP]

I can see the logic behind the carbon, just basically a wet/wet filter with tons of surface area, but just consider me from Missouri on the pH rocks. Humbug. Please get someone to explain how the CO2 unreacts from the buffer it has already reacted with by the time it gets to the rocks. That's a simple neutralization reaction in a system with alkalinity, where its supposed to be, and it happens almost instantaneously. Isn't that what buffer (alkalinity) is supposed to do, prevent swings in pH by converting acid or base into something else? Both carbonate and carbonic acid gets converted to bicarbonate. How low is the pH supposed to get in this thing? You need a pH of way below 7 (such as in a calcium reactor) to get dissolution of calcium carbonate. If you are getting that, I would suggest you figure out where to hook up a Kalk reactor. Are you doing biological treatment or making beer?

[Ram_Puppy]

I certainly wouldn't mind if someone got the guy who makes/sells this stuff in here to answer more questions.

I am certianly not an expert on this, but seeing as how I have very little to lose in the trying, I don't have a problem spending a little money on some PVC joints and a few bags of carbon and rocks to fill them. like I said, I allready have almost everything.

[GaryP]

I just wanted to add one thing. Everyone seems to think that a calcium reactor works at a pH of 6.5 to 6.8. That's not true. That is the pH of the water on the outlet side of the reactor. If you ever measured the pH on the inlet side, before it is neutralized by the CaCO3, you would find it to be around 4-5. That is the pH that you get when most of your carbonate is converted to carbonic acid. At a ph of 6.5-6.8 the majority has already been converted back to bicarbonate. Pure sodium bicarbonate solution has a pH right around 7.0.

[Richard]

Gary - For me, this is an experiment to see IF this system works. This approach simply does not jive with all that is currently believed to be true about this hobby. My thinking is that someone has to setup a system and see IF it works. Debating why it will or will not work before knowing if it actually works or not work just does not make sense to me. I kinda like doing experiments just to see what will happen so I am approaching this with a completely open mind. So whether it works or not, I will not be disappointed. Hopefully Ram & Ham have the same attitude if they are going to try this.

Ok, I'll send him an email and see if he has time to come on here and give the requirements for setting up this system. If you have read the link I provided from another forum you will see that he will not reveal the details of "HOW" this system works.

[GaryP]

If you have read the link I provided from another forum you will see that he will not reveal the details of "HOW" this system works.
Can you say "red flag" boys and girls? This is right up there with the "proprietary" ingredients for the coral food. That means either 1. Its all smoke & mirrors, 2. No one knows how it works, or if it does actually work, or 3. there is nothing proprietary about it and can not stand up to the standards of a patent submission.

If it is something new and earth shattering, then why not get a patent on it? I'd be really interested to see if you can see what the pH is throughout the system. Please put in some sample points.

P.S. Does this system come with a big pyramid that goes over your tank? How about magic magnets?

[Richard]

Gary - If Ram decides to try this method it would be nice just to have a thread detailing the setup and then the results. Without you telling us to "be afraid be very afraid". Try reading this again....



Gary - For me, this is an experiment to see IF this system works. This approach simply does not jive with all that is currently believed to be true about this hobby. My thinking is that someone has to setup a system and see IF it works. Debating why it will or will not work before knowing if it actually works or not work just does not make sense to me. I kinda like doing experiments just to see what will happen so I am approaching this with a completely open mind. So whether it works or not, I will not be disappointed. Hopefully Ram & Ham have the same attitude if they are going to try this.

[Ram_Puppy]

Hopefully Ram & Ham have the same attitude if they are going to try this.


Absolutely, Am I not always looking for something new to play with? :)

Agreed that debating the how is not important at this point, however, if you had read the topic Richard linked to you would see that this guy has successfully patented the RightNow bacteria. his reasons for not sharing the inner workings with aquarium hobbyists are that this stuff was originally inteded for waste treatment plants, we are small potatoes here. For now, I can buy that and will try this stuff.

hell, I am halfway thinking of ordering that desecant off his website and tossing it in a pot of water for the sheer fun of watching water boil through 'molecular friction'.

besides, I have been using his carbon allready, and the stuff rocks. that alone proves to me he has at least one good product, I will take a risk on some others.

[Ram_Puppy]

OH, and my new bottles of handi-foam arrived today RIGHT before i left to come to work. I will try and foam up the tank and get it water in it tomorrow!

[GaryP]

Richard,

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying be afraid. At the very worst, all that will happen is that he will have more surface to grow bugs and he will be out a few bucks. My point was about my skepticism of counter intuitive technologies backed up with no data.

[Ram_Puppy]

ahh you silly scientists and your data!!!! :) lol...

like I said, it's only a few bucks for me as I have almost everything I need at home allready.

PVC pipe - check
End Caps - check
big bag o carbon - check (need more)
tubing - check
eg crate - check
screening - check
pvc primer and solvent - check
other stuff - check

[GaryP]

I was talking about the "PH rocks."

[Ram_Puppy]

well, yeah, who knows how that will work out.. worst case it's bio media like you said. :)

[GaryP]

Actually I like the idea of forcing water flow through LR. I have a feeling that will be what this will turn into. The tank I am planning right now is going to have a spreader bar hooked up to the closed loop that will be pushing water through the LR from the back. My thought is that will also help produce non-laminar flow as well as help prevent detritus buildup in the rockscape. The trick is going to be figuring out how to access the nozzles of the spreader bar so they can be removed and clean. Anytime you have an area where there is a pressure change its going to scale up first. The nozzles will be one of those areas because the water is going through a restriction.

[hammondegge]

I suspect that even without the ph rock the co2 from respiration will just vent off like it does in any other properly aerated sytem. So it probably isn't that much co2 or at least nothing compared to a co2 tank on a Ca reactor. This might be why you use so much ph rock, I'm not sure.


ahhh - didnt think about that.

[hammondegge]

How low is the pH supposed to get in this thing? You need a pH of way below 7 (such as in a calcium reactor) to get dissolution of calcium carbonate. If you are getting that, I would suggest you figure out where to hook up a Kalk reactor. Are you doing biological treatment or making beer?

now i need to plumb for a keg

[GaryP]

Joshua doses vodka, why not beer?

[Ram_Puppy]

well today is a momentus day, a day that will live in infamy!

I put 50 gallons of water in the tank before having to go to work. I stopped just before the intakes to the closed loop as I figure if something is gonna leak, I want it to leak while i am actually at home. :)

Plumbing is DONE
Sand is IN
Foam - DONE

now we pray my plumbing doesn't suck.

the only thing I am concerned about is the oceans motions revolutions.. .I am worried as they aim towards the back and sides they are going to cause water to rise up over the lip... we shall see.

[brewercm]

Dang I wanted to get in before you filled it up and put in a suggestion on your pumps that didn't look like it was raised because this turned into a thread about some kind of carbon filter thing. ;)

I was going to suggest ball valves and union valves at the inlet/outlets of your pumps for cleaning purposes. It lookes like your pumps were glued into place without a way to get them off for cleaning but I can't tell for sure. Just a thought for you while you still may be able to drain easily before adding salt and all.

[Richard]

Yikes, good point...I didn't even notice that.

[Ram_Puppy]

yup, that is definately an issue.

I got all the unions and what not when I planned the plumbin, but SPACE is a huge issue for me right now, and Jennifer and I will probably move in about a year or maybe two. because of the space situation I removed all the unions that were in a horizontal orientation and cut many inches off the design (so a sofa can sit next to the tank). when it comes time to clean, unfortunately I am going to be using a saw and replacing some of the plumbing. It's a nasty compromise, but there really wasn't a choice.

[Ram_Puppy]

oh...

I did my closed loop test today!

2 leaks, easily fixed as one was a bulkhead and the other could not even be defined as a leak, the primer valve for the pump was open. :)

took care of that real fast... the bulkhead was more of an issue which required some creative climbing and a new pipe wrench. :)

however, the sad thing is My Oceans Motions 4 way is not turning all the way... I probably damaged it by over-tightening - I got off the phone with Paul from oceans motions a couple minutes ago and he told me how to fix it, and if I can't, he will ship me replacement parts. :) that guys Customer service rocks!

[Ram_Puppy]

ok, I am not sure what happened witht he oceans motions, I took it apart as paul directed but couldn't find any imperfections, so I put it back together and tested it again, and it works just great!

So the closed loop is CHECKED OFF.

Leak Free
Operational.

I am gonna leave the water running all night and hopefully tomorrow I can put the HOT MAgnum on there with a micron screen and polish the water. :)

[Bill S]

Sorry, wrong subject... :sick

[Ram_Puppy]

was that last response supposed to be in another topic?

anyhow... I let my RO filter run all night and now I am only about an inch from the overflow's top.

I have the closed loop running full bore, and the Magnum is polishing the water, though I don't expect it to be running when I get home as it has allready showed signs of clogging.

I am filling up a 32 gallon trash can now, when I get home I will transfer the water into the sump and test it out to see how things go. if all goes well I will adjust the salinity to get it perfect, and buy some liverock on friday.

[LoneStar]

Which type of live rock are you planning to use?

[Ram_Puppy]

I really don't care where it comes from as long as it is:

A) Pacific in Origin
B) nice

I think CB Pets carries Kalini live rock which i like, and their rock is always very nice so I will probably get that, plus, it's allready cured. :)

[Ram_Puppy]

OK!! UPdate for today! (Pics later)

In the wee hours of the morning I started up the overflow and return pump. I took about 45 minutes of fine tuning to get the flushing and what not to stop, but it is a steady flow through the tank now.

The water is still a little milky but I have the canister running and a ton of floss in the tower.

Water is balanced at full strength 1.026

Today I went to CB pets and purchase 2 huge rocks, I would estimate one is about 60 lbs, the other is about 35 or so. Mark and Richard cut me one heck of a deal! Thanks guys!

I have 2 HUGE pieces of kalini in there, both are show pieces, fully cured, and gorgeous!

So the tank is fully up and running, just waiting for the water to go through it's final clearing up.

I would post pictures right now, but the rocks are nothing but vauge outlines w/ the milk effect going on from the sand. Soon as it clears, i will put some up! Oh, and Richard, Mark, thanks for the TLC to help start the tank up as well! between the TLC and the live rock I expect the bio-film should form over the sand rapidly and get the tank going all that much faster!

The only thing I am currently considering changing is to bring the OM revolutions further out into the tank.

[Richard]

I have 2 HUGE pieces of kalini


Those were walt smith premiun fiji. I was afraid you were going to drop that big one putting it in your tank.

[Ram_Puppy]

Ahh... I just called Tyler and he said Kalini. ;) no biggie! Heh, it all looks the same to me anyhow. but these are nice pieces, they have good 'form'.

When putting them in the tank I ended up just taking them out of the box, stood on a chair and SLOWLY lowered them into the tank allowing the overflow to pull out the displacement. Then I siphoned the excess water out of the sump.

[cpreefguy]

need pics!

[Ram_Puppy]

I took some pictures today, and before I could load them up noticed some standing water in the stand. curious, I started feeling around.

the 2 inch bulkhead that feeds the return pump has a 'weeping' leak. (very slow drip) I tightened it down, and it got worse. Sad thing is, my wrench worked with the bulkheand and working space to tighten, but it was to bulky to back the bulkhead off, so I had to make a quick dash to lowes and bought a cable wrench - biggest waste of 20 bucks EVER!!!, ran back and bought some 16 inch channel locks (NICE!) and backed it off, dried everything, re-tightened the bulkhead, filled it all back up, and it still leaks.

I stuck the channel locks in there water and all and started manipulating the bulkhead trying to find a spot where it wouldn't leak. there is no such spot, it goes straight from gush to drip, no inbetween.

So I am going to have to order a higher quality bulkhead I think... I am searching for those heavy duty ones on line right now, if you guys remember the link for them please post here so I can get the order in ASAP.

I am not worried about the tank, the closed loop is still pummeling at least 2800 GPH through the tank...

I observed little 'dust devils' from the current today, very cool. nice and clear finally!

[Richard]

Are you sure you haven't over tightened the bulkhead? That will cause them to leak as well.

[Richard]

Ahh... I just called Tyler and he said Kalini. no biggie!


He was just guessing since he never saw the rocks. He had a 50% chance of being right but still got it wrong LOL!

[Ram_Puppy]

lol! on Tyler...

Yeah, I am sure I didn't over tighten it, I hand tightened it the first time, I doubt I could have over tightened it that way.

After I noticed the leak I drained the tank, backed the nut off the bulkhead, made sure the gasket was intact, and then gently hand tightened it again, I stopped when I could still move it, then filled up the sump, and water was leaking pretty fast, so I kept turning the nut with my hand till it wouldn't move anymore, then it was dripping. I dried everything to make sure it wasn't just the remaining water, still dripped, so I used the channel locks and slowly turned and dried for a couple minutes. When the gasket started bulging out I knew it was over tightening, so I backed off back to a drip, drained the sump, sighed real loud, and came to work. :(

[Bill S]

I would also seal them with silicone...

[LoneStar]

What size hole was the sump drilled for? Possibly it could have been drilled too big where the gasket gets pushed in between the bulkhead and glass creating small enough hole for water to seap through....

[Ram_Puppy]

the hole was drilled correctly, it was done by mark (the other guy) and myself and was a nice clean tap, and it's a snug fit so I don't think that is the problem. I am hesitant to use siligone becuase I have heart id has poor adhesion to acrylic.

I don't mind shelling out for a better bulkhead so no worries!

[Ram_Puppy]

ok, I just ordered a Savko 2 inch schedule 80 bulkhead, along w/ a slip gasket for it (this fits around the wall of the tank wo assist in creating a tighter seal)

it should be here by wednesday.

[TheOtherGuy]

Ahhh. That sucks. Is the gasket on the correct side (not the big nut side) but on the lip side of the bulkhead?

[Ram_Puppy]

dude... that is so wrong! :) yeah, it's on the right side!

[TheOtherGuy]

Ah. Ya never know. LOL. It's late, I'm tired etc etc etc.

[Richard]

Steve, did you forget to put the gasket on the bulkhead? LOL!

[Ram_Puppy]

WHy yes I did! :) lol

here are some pics I felt I might never see.

I don't have the hood or structure built over the tank, so I set zip tied some PVC to some egg crate, made sure it was stable and put the halides on long enough to take this shot.

The halides are 10K and 20K, left and right respectively. I tilted each of them a little bit so their colors would merge in the center... not sure how well that is gonna work when I get the tank... I might sell these bulbs on ebay and go for 14Ks... but I will actually get the system up and running first!

ok!

Front Shot!

http://www.digitalflytrap.com/images/cube_construction/DSCN1131.jpg

From the left side - This rock is about 60 - 55-60 lbs I think (note the nice tunnel right through it!, there are several of these!)

http://www.digitalflytrap.com/images/cube_construction/DSCN1130.jpg

right side - This rock is I think is around 30 - 40 lbs I think.

http://www.digitalflytrap.com/images/cube_construction/DSCN1129.jpg

interesting how shooting on the left side got 10K coloration and the right got 20K coloration when to the eye there WAS a little bit of difference, but not as marked as in the pics.

I LOVE these rocks!

[TheOtherGuy]

Those rocks look good in there.

I would considering using the same bulb in both fixtures as I would go crazy seeing 2 different spectrums. I really like the RL 12K & 10K(my current bulbs). I first tried 12K because I feared 10K would not look good w/o actinic support but, the RL 10k are a very nice white light and corals/sps still have some great colors. We are gonna use the RL 12Ks on the mini Acro tank at the store.

[Ram_Puppy]

yeah, your right mark it is going to drive me nuts... I think I am going to switch them both out for 14K's.

[Ram_Puppy]

ok... I got sick of waiting for the Savko guys to approve the order and ship it, so that is cancelled. last night when I got home I used my finger to run a bead of silicone around the outer, inner, surfaces, and along the edge of the whole creating a sort of gasket. I let it dry and then a few minutes ago I Put the bulkhead back in, tightened her up gently, and filled the sump back up. NO LEAKS. :)

Tank is back up and running.

I am going out to the family ranch to build the canopy this weekend.

Oh, and I had a small diatom bloom as all the filtration is in the sump, and it was just live rock stewing in the main tank. water is a cloudy brown but clearing up rapidly now that the sump is back in the picture. I think the skimmer is pulling it out as it's frothin like a monster.

I do plan to turn the skimmer off once the water has cleared up as I think skimmers are a big reason for a lack of micro-fauna in some tanks (larvae get skimmed out) I will only have my clowns in the main tank for the next 6 months, to allow the system to develop more diversity.

allrighty! :)

[TheOtherGuy]

Silicon, 2 Part Epoxy, Duct Tape, 2 paper clips, 2 rubber bands and 2 zip ties and you can repair just about anything. LOL

[Ram_Puppy]

screw that, you can practically fix anything with just the duct tape! :)

[Bill S]

Nah. Have you seen the new Gorilla Tape! Puts duct tape to shame...

[Ram_Puppy]

umm.. hello, did you not see the pictures, My stand is MADE out of gorilla tape! :) jk

[Bug_Power]

FYI I had this stuff float 30lbs of concrete on me. That foam is VERY boyant. I would suggest you make sure you have something holding it down there!

[Ram_Puppy]

Thanks for the heads up Bug, there is egg crate in it, and it's attatched to the return pipes which are hard plumbed, and as you know that stuff adheres like no ones business, 3 weeks later and I just now got it off my hands and nails. :| I think it will be ok... if not, I will rip it out.

[Ram_Puppy]

All I have to say todya is I can NOT believe how much water evaporates out of this system! enough I thought I had another leak, I keep checking all the plumbing over and over... even though I can tell it is evap from the fact the SG goes up. Crazy! I need to start calculating it.

[LoneStar]

how much did you evap out? and over what time period?

[Ram_Puppy]

I am thinking 2 to 3 gallons a day. I haven't tracked it yet, but over the course of two days I went from 1.026 to 1.030.

I think it is because I don't have a canopy on the tank and the stand is open, there is a fan going in the room, and the cube shape has a ton of surface area.

[LoneStar]

Are you going to have any type of auto top off? I know my tank evaps about that much a day ;)

[Ram_Puppy]

yeah, I am still trying to figure out how I am going to do it though. ideally I would just run a line from the RO system, but I think I am going to be stuck with a trashcan in a nearby closet.

[donniekim]

Hey Ram check this link out! Really affordable option which I'm gonna use on my system! And he's a MARSH Sponsor

http://www.top-off.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=e138ac10c5f104c9d47ac866ac8392 10

Donnie

[Ram_Puppy]

Thanks Donnie, That is one of the nicest, and best documented as far as workings go, systems I have seen to date.

I think I might just have to place an order. :) (No cash for it until next week though. :( )

[Ram_Puppy]

oh, I don't think I mentioned this yet.

i have moonlights with a lunar tracker on them, and they were a great price.

http://thelebos.com/

I will be working on my canopy this weekend.

[Chicken_Eye]

Hey I know with my setup I am loosing about 1/2 to 1 gal a day between my DT my fuge and my sump
Ram what is a good set of least inexpensive 36" lights for a 72 gal corner bow front my uncle is wanting to try corals and is wanting a good set of lights

[Ram_Puppy]

Bump your gums Chicken_Eye! :) lol.

Lighting is dependent on what you want to keep. if he want's SPS I think he would probably want to just go with a 250 watt MH, and maybe some Actinic lights... if memory serves those corner bowfronts are a pain in the hind end to light, tight space. he might have to go with two very short VHO actinics on each side... not sure... someone else might have a better idea.

[Ram_Puppy]

Well yesterday the oceansmotions started making a 'click-thunk' sound. I called oceans motions and as always, the support was great even though Paul is down in florida playing in a golf tournament.

He had me remove the drum as he thought it was having problems because of my having plumbing hoses of a different length. When I got the drum out though, it was all torn up. it obviously got some aragonite grit in it somehow and that acted like sandpaper. the problem is, that the material the oceans motions is made out of actually holds the grit, so the aragonite is still in the drum.

I polished the hosings inside out, mase sure it wasn't to roughted up, and then sealed it back up w/out the drum (OceansMotions is sending me a new one at no cost.) unfortunately, my infinte strength and intelligence caused me to overtighten one of the nylon screws and it snapped. now it won't maintain a seal and I am up a creek w/ a very small paddle.

When I get home tonight i will try to cut a notch into the remains of the nylon screw and back it out with a flathead screwdriver. fi that doesn't work i will have to take it out to the ranch and tap the screw out. that would be a major pain in the butt.

so as of now, closed loop is down. :(

Clowns are back home and seem to love the little cave under the rocks though. :)

lesson of the month. 'let your aragonite storm settle before turning on your closed loop.' ;|

[Ram_Puppy]

well, there was a mix up with my drum at oceansmotions, apparently Cassie is under the weather and some guy in washington got my drum, and I got his shafts for his 8-way.

Anyway, being the adventursome person I am, I took a new razor blade and smoothed out the rough edges on the damaged drum and put it back in, presto, it works. :)

In another unexpected happy moment, 2 of the 4 1" omni-flex systems I hadn't gotten around to pay-palling paul came in as well. for reference, these are 1" diameter lock lines.

here is a pic, I threw my refractometer in there as a size reference.

http://www.digitalflytrap.com/images/cube_construction/DSCN1154.JPG

So, the closed loop is on, stirred up some detrius wo the tank got a little cloudy, and it smells a little from the water that went anoxic in the CL when it was off, but everone seems to be doing fine. once the water has cleared up a little bit I will go ahead and screw those puppies in.

progress is slow, but it's coming!