SPS Keepers, Anyone dosing Salifert Amino Acids?

[thedude]

The last few TOTM on reefcentral have all been dosing Amino Acids by Salifert so I got curious and did some searching. It seems like something worth checking out. I'll give you Habib's (CEO of Salifert's) short explanation of why we should dose amino acids.

"The calcium carbonate skeletal material of corals and other invertebrates contains layers of organic material which acts as a sort of glue between the calcium carbonate particles and possibly also as a template for a newer layer of calcium carbonate.


That organic layer is called the organic matrix and such a matrix 9albeit with different composition) is found in most, if not all, biologically deposited minerals.Thus also in teeth and bones of humans, animals and fish.


Some amino acids very likely have to be present in the diet of corals or in the water. If they are lacking then growth problems or brittle skeletons might result.


It also known that corals have reserves (pools) of some of the amino acids and that pool is rapidly depleted if the corals is e.g. stressed.


salifert's Coralline AminoAcids contains amino acids also found in the skeleton of corals and some of their reserve pools.

It can help to reduce stress and can aid in their growth.

It is not a miracle supplement and not everyone sees changes however many do. Of course it depends on if it really was lacking in the aquarium (each aquarium is different) and if other parameters are good enough."

Seems interesting enough to try IMO. Anyone using them currently?

John

[GaryP]

Well, I see one problem with this product. Most SPS guys I know are feeding various zooplankton such as cyclopeeze, baby brine, daphnia, oyster eggs, and rotifers. The purpose of these foods is to provide protein for coral growth in addition to the calcium and carbonate that is dosed.

Does Habib provide any support that SPS are even capable of absorbing amino acids directly from the water? I can see some soft corals doing this, but I am sketical about SPS that have a feeding mechanism.

This is similar to the argument that went on a few years ago about trace elements. Chemical analysis of corals showed significant levels of trace metals such as manganese, molybdenum, and strontium. Everyone rushed out to buy these sort of supplements. As it turns out they are probably not really required but rather get trapped in the calcium carbonate matrix as the coral grows. In other words, to some degree they are just chemical hitchhikers.

In this case I am sure that corals do need amino acids to grow, After all they are are not only their calcium carbonate skeleton but also have "meaty" parts. However, without seeing more evidence, I don't think that soluble amino acids are necessarily the way to go about delivering them to the corals. In addition to the zooplankton, we add a lot of amino acids in the form of proteins in the food we provide. These proteins are broken down by bacteria to their constituent amino acid building blocks. In addition, most amino acids can be produced by animals from sugars. SPS receive sugars from the zooanthellae in their tissues. I think we are already, for the most part, adding a lot of nutrients to the water. Adding another one may not be the best thing. I might see the case for the use of such a product in a nutrient poor, lightly fed, heavily filtered BB tank if they can show that SPS are capable of absorbing the amino acids directly from the water.

If you listen to the manufacturers, every supplement out there is essential for the growth of SPS. Where does it stop? In the mean time I will file this away in the category of "snake oil" until someone can show me otherwise.

[TexasTodd]

From Gary "I might see the case for the use of such a product in a nutrient poor, lightly fed, heavily filtered BB tank if they can show that SPS are capable of absorbing the amino acids directly from the water. "

This is what I'd have said too. On lightly fed, especially BB system, this I think can help pale colors some. But, I still think you're better off feeding a good varity of super small foods..

I've used it and didn't see any huge differences.

Todd

[GaryP]

Todd,

Did you ever get any feedback from Paletta on his experiments to find the optimum sized food for SPS? If not, could you ask him about this the next time you talk to him? I am currently using the shotgun approach. I feed a little bit of everything in the hopes that the corals will like something I am giving them.

[TexasTodd]

He's going to keep quiet about that. He's trying to doccument them feeding and the correct particle sizes for articles/books. :o

I use a shotgun too. :lol

Todd

[gjuarez]

Hmm, know you guys got me interested, well at least in doing some research on it. I wonder if these are similar to zeovit. There is so much out there to confuse our minds.

[thedude]

Gary,

I agree totally that it's rather sketchy to think that SPS can absorb amino acids directly from the water column. That being said, the recommended way of dosing the amino acid supplement is to use it as a food soak. Soaking your shotgun cocktail with it, then feeding a loading mix of DT's, golden pearls, etc.

[TexasTodd]

Ah, didn't know that! The GP's would suck it up well.

TT

[GaryP]

The folks at GARF recommend a product from Kent called coral vite. I believe one of its components is hydrolyzed protein. In other words, amino acids.

[Ed]

Gary,

Coral Vite lists these ingredients:

calcium chloride, strontium chloride, potassium chloride, manganese chloride, sodium EDTA, potassium iodide, calcium iodide, ferric sulfate, boric acid, calcium pantothenate, cholecalciferol, choline chloride, dipotassium ascorbate, folic acid, lithiumchloride, magnesium chloride, menadionesodium bisulfite complex, niacin, potassium bromide, cobalt chloride, riboflavin, rubidium chloride, sodium carbonate, sodium molybdate, thiamine hydrochloride, tocopherol, pyroxidine hydrochloride, vitamin Apropionate, vitamin A palmitate, vitamin B12, barium chloride, biotin.....and a partridge in a pear tree.....

Guraranteed Analysis:

Calcium (min) 1400.000 mg/oz
Iodine (min) 22.000 mg/oz
Iron (min) 3.380 mg/oz
Magnesium (min) 5.580 mg/oz
Potassium (min) 36.000 mg/oz
Strontium (min) 460.000 mg/oz
Vitamin A 25.000 IU/oz
Ascorbic Acid 2.000 mg/oz
Thiamine (Vitamin B-1) 2.000 mg/oz
Pyroxidine (Vitamin B-6) 2.000 mg/oz
Vitamin B-12 2.000 mcg/oz

:D

[GaryP]

OK, so I am wrong. My apologies. I must have thinking of something else. That's going to make me have to go look at my "supplement shelf." I could see how something like that would work for softies, just not SPS. Softies will absorb stuff out of the water since many don't really have a mouth to speak of.

[Ed]

Gary,

Looks to me like the Kent Coral Vite has a little bit of everything in it.:roll

Not sure what all of it is or how much value it has. I just had a bottle on the shelf and thought you might be interested in the ingredients. Wonder why GARF thinks it is special?

[thedude]

Yeah, I just find it odd that all of the last several stunning reefcentral TOTM's have used Salifert amino acids. Makes me feel like I'm missing out on something.

[JimD]

Gary, you might be thinking of a Mark Weiss product called 'coral vital' which has been said to be nothing more than plain old apple juice. Personaly, Im not sold on any of these types of additives, just because RC totm's use them means nothing to me. Theres been plenty of tanks highlighted that dont use anyhing but the basics that look as good or better.

[Ed]

Gary,

Both Kent Coral Accel and Kent Micro Vert contain the mystical "hydrolyzed marine protein." You might be thinking of one of these?

[GaryP]

Yeppers, Coral Accel is what I was thinking of. Wrong Kent product. Thanks.

[Richard]

Yeppers, Coral Accel is what I was thinking of. Wrong Kent product. Thanks.


How is it possible to get the products mixed up when they have so few additives to use LOL.

[GaryP]

I guess they ran out of new species of snakes to make oil out of.

[schprock]

They are some peer reviewed paper out there that strongly suggest that amino acid is incorporated from the water column.

Paste from discussion section:
Aspartic acid, for example, is one of the major and most abundant amino acids in the coral matrix (Young, 1971; Cuif and Gautret, 1995; Dauphin and Cuif, 1997). Allemand et al. (1998) also showed that no aspartic acid pool was present inside the coral tissue, suggesting the need for a constant supply from an exogenous source.

Here is the paper for those of you who are interested:
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/207/9/1461