Use of Cyanide (warning long post)

[falcondob]

Cyanide and Its Unfortunate Use

In the January 2006, Volume 4, Issue 12 of the online magazine "Reefkeeping" there is an article by Steven Pro, titled "Cyanide and Its Unfortunate Use in the Marine Ornamental Industry". Mr. Pro explores the effects of the use of the chemical "Cyanide" in a process employed by some harvesters of ornamental fish and some commercial fisherman (yes, they catch fish to eat this way also.)

He states that the effects on fish are inconclusive at this time. However, later in the article he reports:

"In contrast to fishes, the effects on corals is much more clear. In every study I have read, corals suffered bleaching or death depending on the dosage used and the duration of the exposure (Jones & Steven, 1997, Jones & Hoegh-Guldberg, 1999, and Cervino et al, 2003). So, regardless of what may or may not occur to fishes exposed to cyanide, it is clearly a destructive practice which should not be encouraged. Be sure to keep that in mind and vote with your dollars for clean and healthy fishes."

and

"As I have already alluded to, collection locale plays an extremely important role in avoiding fishes caught using cyanide. As of the time I am writing this piece, I have heard of cyanide usage only in the Philippines, parts of Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, the Maldives, Sabah, and possibly the Red Sea (Eritrea) and Tanzania (http://oneocean.org...cleansingourseas.html). Knowing this, and knowing the origin of the fish at the local fish store, goes a long way toward avoiding animals suspected to be captured using cyanide."

and

"Now, some shops will say they don't know where a particular fish came from. That is only half true. I have seen plenty of availability lists in my decade plus of working in this industry. Every one I have ever seen labels some fish as coming from certain areas. For example, a stock list may have a Hawaiian flame angel. Then, at a slightly cheaper price, a Christmas Island specimen may be listed. And finally, cheapest of all is the generic one with no location noted. It is possible that the wholesaler may not know where that fish came from, but I find that hard to believe. As an importer buying directly from exporters in the country of origin, they must know the flights and from where the boxes of fish are coming from. I find it easier to believe that in those cases they are simply not passing along the information because it is not a positive selling point."

Taking all this into consideration, I believe that, as a member of MAAST and holder of wild-captured livestock, I am obligated to ensure, that by my purchases, I am not indirectly validating the use of cyanide by the ornamental collection or commercial fishing industries.

I would like to ask that the local fish stores state from where their livestock comes. It then would become the decision of the aquarist as to whether or not to purchase the given item. This applies to fish and coral. Corals collected from countries that allow cyanide collection methods will probably be poisoned and/or stressed. Although we can't know for sure, this could be anecdotal evidence of why there seems to be a higher mortality percentage in wild colonies, as opposed to the aquacultured ones, placed in captive reef tanks.

If the local fish stores are unwilling to do so or give misleading information, I, for one, will take my business else where. As for anyone else, that has to be a call on your part. But, at least you would have the information by which you can make an informed decision.

History tells us that if we tolerate this kind of practice, government will step in. When they become involved it is usually with a heavy, indiscriminate, and almost irreversible hand. Like the old saying, "We will reap, what we have sown."

I have sent this out to the local stores (SA, Austin, and MAAST sponsors), that publish an email address, prior to posting it here on MAAST.

Thanks for reading,

John Wilkes (falcondob)


PS: If I get any feedback from the vendor/suppliers, I will post it to this thread.

[lachrimae]

FYI: I asked Austin Aquariums a few months back if they had a way of knowing for sure whether or not their fish were cyanide caught and they said "Yes". Michael(?) went in to some detail, stating that he had either met (in person) or had lengthy discussions with the people catching his fish and had full confidence in their catching methods. I certainly applaud this if true...
Incidentally, I asked another of the more respected Austin area LFS's about cyanide and they said there was no way to know for sure & that they wouldn't make such a promise. They even went as far as to call the bluff of Austin Aquariums.

I'd be interested in having some LFS views on this as well.

Thanks for bringing up an important issue.

Mark

[bigdscobra]

It is a shame.

[GaryP]

Michael speaks Filipino (actually its Tagalog)and Indonesian? Hmmmm. Good for him.

Seriously though, there is a movement to certify collectors and wholesalers to make sure they are meeting standards and best recommended practices. If you are interested in learning more, check this link.

http://aquariumcouncil.org/subpage.asp?section=13

[lachrimae]

GaryP, interesting link.

Looks like their FAQ is out-dated:

6. What does the certification label look like?

The design of the certification label is being finalized and will be unveiled when the MAC Core Standards are launched in late 2001.


Still reading the site to see if they're actually still functioning.

[lachrimae]

Ok, it looks like MAC has news updates on their site that are as recent as Q3 '05. I see a lot of references to Europe and other parts of the world but not much for the US. Do you know of any local MAC members?

[GaryP]

I know I have talked to a few LFS owners that have said its a pain to get "certified." There are alternative organization here:

http://www.amdareef.com/

You'd really need to talk to your local LFS about which organizations they belong to. The AMDA recommended practices page is pretty good reading, especially the section on LFS.

[lachrimae]

Richard, thank you for the AMDA link. Their guidelines fall right in line with my expectations.

Here is the Retailer excerpt for others to see:

Retailers Responsibilities

Accept responsibility for any fish ordered, even if delayed. After hours contact should be made available.

Unpack fish promptly, in dim light, and acclimated as previously designed.

Hold new fish separately from currently "in stock" fish, clearly marked and rested 48 hours or until normal behavior and feeding resumes..

Dispose of used packing materials, properly or disinfect used materials if they are to be re-used.

Acclimate new fish to holding system water and feed with appropriate food prior to selling.

Regard to the physical and behavior needs of each fish.

Use all reasonable precautions to prevent disease outbreak and spread, including the above mentioned means.

Treat appropriately any fish showing signs of disease and/or distress.
Utilize antibiotics with the guidance of a veterinarian.

Assess the water quality on a regular basis.

Keep records of fish purchased.

Keep records of fish moralities.

Not offer marine specimens shown to not survive in captivity, unless for research.

Offer captive raised specimens (when available) rather than sell wild stock.

Make available the special dietary needs for the fish to the hobbyist (consumer) to purchase.

Have their unsupervised staff to take and pass the AMDA Knowledge Assessment Test in order to provide the information the consumer needs to maintain a healthy aquarium and to reach a standard of consistency within the hobby and industry.

Retail Sales

All fish should be in good health, i.e. eating and swimming normally and not be exhibiting external signs of disease.

Before sale a careful visual examination of fish should be done, with any abnormalities noted and treated.

Records should be kept.

Any specimen with obvious abnormality(s), which could affect its quality of life, should not be offered for sale.

Fish should be caught in a manner to reduce stress and avoid physical damage.

Ensure that the customer purchases fish suitable for the aquarium intended.

Enable the staff a full range of books to be available for reference and senior staff should be available for consultation to the staff and customer.

Customers should be informed of risks associated with venomous or harmful species, including first aid measures.

Regarding transportation of the fish by the customers:
The fish should be placed in appropriate containers (bags large enough for the fish to turn around) with sufficient oxygen, water and if necessary insulation to protect from temperature variations.
Instructions for proper acclimation for the fish upon arrival of it’s new home.

After sales advice and support should remain available to the customer.

The customer should be given accurate instructions for the care and welfare of the animal purchased.

Records of moralities should be kept to track trends in location, species and disease problems for future reference.


Bold emphasis is mine.

[Richard]

MAC Certification is old news I think. It was a nice idea but became bogged down in politics and from what I have read some in the organization were more interested in getting $$$ into their pockets than achieving any useful purpose.

Search mac certification on WWM for much discussion between industry insiders on this subject.

I'll try to add some comments on this subject later when I have some more time.

[falcondob]

I have had several responses from vendors. I must say that they were all negative. The concensus is that the issue is too complicated, we cannot affect any change, and the cost of livestock may double, triple, or more. Here is my response:

I agree that this is not a simple issue. I also researched the subject before posting what I did. The bottom line is that I agree with almost all of your assertions, with a couple of exceptions.

First, you cannot get our government to move with a crowbar and an elephant, let alone the bureaucratic, and most times corrupt, government of these third world nations. If it takes fish costing 2 or even 3 times as much, that may be cheaper in the long run that what we may get if the importation of ornamental fish and coral is curtailed, restricted, or banned completely. The only real pressure that can be applied is monetary. Look at white-tailed deer. There are more white-tailed deer in America now, than when Columbus arrived. Why? The power of the dollar. The landowners will protect their resource, lest it be taken away. But, look at the effect that "canned" hunts are having on the hunt-lease industry. Some activist in New York can make a real federal issue out of those kind of stories. The same thing is going to happen with the reefs and harvesting the renewable resources there. We have the tendency in this country to throw the baby out with the bath water.

So, how can I affect the policy of these far-flung island governments? By my livestock expenditures. The pressure has to be brought to bear on the supply chain all the way back to the catchers. Just as some of the island nations have come to realize, these are resources they need to protect if they are to use them produce revenue. However that pressure has to start with the local supplier. I feel it is their responsibility to perform due diligence in determining the source of the livestock they buy. If they are lied to, what can I or they do? Well, spot testing of fish would be a start.

Second, is the that the impact to fish is only part of the story. This is probably the biggest bullet of them all. It is the impact to the reef's sessile inhabitants that is the most quantifiable and documented. This we be the one that gets us all. Imagine the cost of wild colonies of coral if 2/3 of the countries are banned from importing into this country. It will be astronomical.
For me this is a ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't issue. But, I would rather be ****ed by proactively trying to protect the wild take off reefs, than to be setting ****ed in my living room with only frags and domestic aquaculture to choose from.

I will continue to post information in this thread. I intend on contact DFMAS and MARSH to get the position of those clubs also. Any other information I find I will also post a link to.

I think this is an issue we need to take very seriously. The future of how we practice our hobby is, I believe, at stake.

Thanks for your comments.
John

[Richard]

I have had several responses from vendors. I must say that they were all negative.


Can you elaborate on what was a negative response? What exactly are you asking of them? Lot's of words here but the only thing I have seen specifically asked is that retailers give you the location of where a fish was collected. FWIW, we used to list that on all of our fish labels but no one cared so I quit wasting my time doing it. It takes alot of time to track data on every fish that comes in a store so why do it if very few people even care.

Knowing or thinking you know where a fish was collected doesn't ensure anything. There are many ethical wholesalers who have sent up their own collection stations and supply quality net caught fish.

You might not like hearing this but you can stomp your feet all you want at "the industry" and it won't make any difference. This industry like any other is consumer driven. The thing that always bugs me about these types of discussion is that ANY responsibility of the hobbyist is always noticably absent. If you really want to put and end to cyanide caught fish then it's a simple matter of convincing EVERY hobbyist to not purchase a fish until it has been in the shop for several day AND require that the see the fish eating before they purchase it. If you can pull that off then there will simply not be a market for cyanide caught fish. Of course this will drive the price up and eliminate online vendors from the market, so good luck!

The US government has spent trillions on the war on drugs but it isn't like drugs aren't available here. As long is there is a market for something then there will be people who will try to make money off of that market.

IMO, the answer lies with the consumer not the LFS, Wholesalers & Collectors. I think that's where hobbyist forums such as this one can be most useful.

EDIT...I think the seahorse market is a good example. All of the seahorse folks I've dealt with are very concerned about them being captive bred and "Are they eating frozen?" "Really, show me!". The wholesalers I prefer to deal with don't even stock wild horses anymore because there isn't a good enough market for them and they just end up being a loss for the wholesaler.

[GaryP]

This sorta reminds me ofg the official response to global warming.

"It costs to much to save the world from traumatic climate change." Personally, I'm going to start investing in beach front property in Floresville.

[falcondob]

I have had several responses from vendors. I must say that they were all negative.


Can you elaborate on what was a negative response? What exactly are you asking of them? Lot's of words here but the only thing I have seen specifically asked is that retailers give you the location of where a fish was collected

I have asked nothing of anyone. I merely sent them an email in advance of posting on MAAST. If I didn't send one to you, then it is my very unfortunate oversight and I apologize.

However, I do not apologize for the thread. The response has basically been pretty much the same as yours. It is too complicated, to costly, and won't solve the problem. I just cannot buy into that argument. The source of the fish is not readily available because we (as you state) as consumers do not insist on it. I am sure there are many marine societies and organizations that would love to police this.

Richard, my points are based on the two following personal observations:

(1) As a falconer, I have seen the kind on ridiculous, capricious, bureaucratic regulation that comes when a wild resource becomes regulated. I promise you, that as a vendor, and me, as a consumer, do not want to that kind of regulation. It will make ensuring the source of fish seem like a cake walk.
(2) It is problematic in even determining the effect on fish by cyanide. However, the impact to the reef itself is beyond question. It is bad enough that they use this on the fish, but it is destroying the reef structure as collateral damage.

What would you have me do? Nothing? Your comparison to the traffic in drugs is an apt one. We are ALL culpable in this. The producers, the dealers, and the users. I am just trying to do what I can. That is too affect change at the "user" level. I don't want to hurt the fish stores, but I don't want to hurt the reefs even more. What I am saying is that we need to be partners (albeit, possibly reluctant ones) in this effort.

From a martketing standpoint, I think it would a fine tool to be able to ensure to the clients of "my" LFS store that I sold only livestock gathered from nations where it known that cyanide collection is not used. As a LFS, if I don't act now, in the future I may be required to do so.

[Richard]

However, I do not apologize for the thread.


I don't think you have anything to apologize for. I certainly am not offended.



The response has basically been pretty much the same as yours. It is too complicated, to costly, and won't solve the problem.


I don't think that accurately sums up my response. As I stated, we used to do this (state collection locale) but there simply wasn't enough hobbyist interest to continue devoting time to that. There's alot to get done everyday at a pet shop.

Having an LFS give you a collection locality is just not a very good assurance that a fish was net caught IMO. What's to stop an a store from just saying Hawaii or New Caledonia on every fish? Or a wholesaler from bringing in yellow tangs from the phillipines and calling them hawaiin. It's not like they have a label stamped "made in hawaii" on them.

What I was suggesting is that you observe the fish eating and don't buy it immediately upon arrival. To me this would be a much better assurance that the fish was not cyanide caught. There is no simple test to see if fish are cyanide caught at this time. Although there is supposed to be work being done to develop an affordable, simple test so wholesalers can detect the presence of cyanide in the fish they are receiving. Judging the health of the animal you are purchasing and the overall health of the animals at whatever store you shopping at is a better indication of whether or not your dealing with an ethical store or not. Cyanide caught fish just don't tend to be very healthy fish.



This sorta reminds me ofg the official response to global warming.

"It costs to much to save the world from traumatic climate change."


Hmmm...again I just don't see where that was what I posted. You know I've never been accused of being the cheapest store. The fact that it costs more to catch fish with a net than it does to squirt cyanide in the water should be a no brainer. My point on cost is...you can't say "I only want responsibly collected fish!" and then walk into some store that has twenty "white" yellow tangs with sunken bellies all shoved in a 55 gallon tank and then say "Oh only $8.99, gimme three". That would be a bit hypocritical don't you think, even if they had a label saying "collected in hawaii".


It's not like nobody in the industry cares about this issue. Strict government regulation would ruin this hobby and I think most people know that. As I said there are some very good suppliers around doing their best to do it the right way. And at least for the SA area there are a number of shops using these wholesalers (we see each others stuff at the airport). I just don't see where stating the collection site for a fish would offer any real assurance or encourage the industry to change much. To easy to fake IMO. Healthy fish - not so easy to fake ;) .

[falcondob]

Richard,

Upon reading your response with more reflection, I must agree that you are not disagreeing with me in principle, just in application. So for that rush to judgement, I apologize.

I still feel that the only method for us (reef inhabitant consumers) to affect change it to apply pressure at every level.

If a LFS tells me that the fish comes from "Bongo Bongo" and that is a country that does to allow the use of cyanide, then I would like to know the name of the wholesaler. I am not going to tell the wholesaler who gave me their name. I am then going to contact them and ask if that is really true. Do they get livestock from nations where cyanide is used? All or just part? Why do they support such activity? How do they KNOW is was not caught with cyanide? Where do they get there stock? If they won't tell me, I will tell my LFS and, if they don't change suppliers, I won't buy there. They might not care, but it is all I can do.

If I find out the supplier is using cyanide, then I will turn them into what ever societies or agencies there are that are activists in this area. At that level, there IS little or nothing I can do. The source suppliers are shooting themselves in the foot, they just don't know it yet.

Thanks for responding and discussing this in an intelligent manner with me. I think this is a big shoe that is getting ready to drop. I would like to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Take care,
John

[GaryP]

Richard,

I was simply making a comment about the acceptance of short term profit with no consideration for long term costs. Those costs can be either economic or environmental, or more likely both.

It costs to much to limit the emissions of CO2. Compared to what? Relocating most of the seaside cities in the world and global famine?

[falcondob]

Richard,

I was simply making a comment about the acceptance of short term profit with no consideration for long term costs. Those costs can be either economic or environmental, or more likely both.

It costs to much to limit the emissions of CO2. Compared to what? Relocating most of the seaside cities in the world and global famine?

Yep, Gary I agree. Although I am not a blindered, intracable environmentalist, I do believe in the saying, "Not even a dog will urinate where it sleeps." In many ways that is just what we have (are) doing and for far too long a time.
I also believe that the natural world cares not a twit for the human species or any species for that matter. If you ascribe to the concept, we have been here a little over a million years as a viable species. A mere speck in the span of life on earth. Current conventional wisdom states that life is not necessarily easy to get started, but pretty difficult to wipe out.
The problem is that these big ole brains of our's have let all of the evolutionary armament fall by the wayside. We are ill equipped to weather drastic changes in our environment. It worries me that the full effects of this will be borne by my children and their children, leaving our trash for them to pick up. For the "tuned-in" generation, we sure seem to have drifted off frequency.
Besides, according to Martin Moe, who runs the world? Us? Animals? Plants? Nope, bacteria. Been here since the opening act and no sign of leaving. I would guess that certainly in terms of number of individuals and maybe in terms of total biomass, we are just detritus in their world. I would guess if we keep urinating in their pool, they are gonna get pretty ticked off.
John

[GaryP]

Actually it was our good friends the cyanobacteria that converted CO2 to O2 in the beginning and allowed us to show up on the planet. So, the next time we are cursing that red slime in our tanks, maybe we should stop and thank them. That is, before siphoning them out and flushing them down the toilet.

[falcondob]

HONOLULU STAR-BULLETIN
Friday, September 30, 2005

Fishing will be now banned and public access limited in the state waters surrounding the tiny islands and atolls of the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands, which stretch 1,200 miles across the Pacific Ocean. .....

Young (director of the state Department of Land and Natural Resources) said that if fishing and other types of harvesting, such as gathering of precious corals, are banned from all waters in the islands, the area would become the largest marine protected area in the world. ....

Stephanie Fried, senior scientist with the New York-based Environmental Defense, said, "(The governor) has completely raised the bar by stating, 'This is what the state is going to do, and more than that we want to see this in all surrounding federal waters.' It is an extraordinary surprise and extraordinary day."

Stay tuned..more to follow...

[GaryP]

There goes SamIam's business. Probably a lot of others too. I'm sure they only mean commercial fishing and collecting, not recreational. Right?

[falcondob]

I will try and find the link. Should have put that there anyway. The way I read it, the were talking total protection.

[Instar]

AMDA (American Marine Dealers Assoc) is the Politics site and basically dead on the vine for all intents and purposes from what I can tell.

Marine Aquarium Council (MAC) on the otherhand, is certifying collectors and then hooking them to certified wholesalers. A fish labeled MAC certified has made it from collector to you in all certified holding stations. It covers collection, maint, min H2O volume per, etc. Many fish are MAC cert but the wholesalers are not complying or certified (yet maybe) so the fish can not be sold as certified because its mixed with others that are not. If it is certified, the systems (and maint, feeding, etc.) are separate and apart from the holding systems of non-certifieds.

Alamo, BTW, is getting MAC certified fish in now. They look fantastic and I saw them eating! Even the Orange Spot Filefish were eating!

There are issues at all levels, but, could we expect anything else? Looks like they are working through it. And the process, however evolving, is starting to work.

For more recent news than this link below, go to the site and click the Jan 2 link.

http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/docs/library/19/MAC%20News%203rd%20Q%2004%20final.PDF

http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/

[falcondob]

Marine Aquarium Council (MAC) on the otherhand, is certifying collectors and then hooking them to certified wholesalers. A fish labeled MAC certified has made it from collector to you in all certified holding stations. It covers collection, maint, min H2O volume per, etc. Many fish are MAC cert but the wholesalers are not complying or certified (yet maybe) so the fish can not be sold as certified because its mixed with others that are not. If it is certified, the systems (and maint, feeding, etc.) are separate and apart from the holding systems of non-certifieds.

Alamo, BTW, is getting MAC certified fish in now. They look fantastic and I saw them eating! Even the Orange Spot Filefish were eating!

There are issues at all levels, but, could we expect anything else? Looks like they are working through it. And the process, however evolving, is starting to work.


Great Stuff! Kudos to MAC. I plan on paying their website a visit and see what I can do to help.

Thanks again for the leg work.
John

[Thunderkat]

At the first store I bought fish from in SA it was pretty much hit or miss as to what fish lived. I lost quite a bit, but I did get my cleaner wrasse from there. Then I went to Wolf Reef (Alex's store) and out of all the things I have bought from him the only thing I have lost is an astea snail that fell on the sand on its back and I didn't see it behind the rock to turn it and unfortunately lost it. I don't know if the livestock he gets is cyanide caught but I would bet the ones he gets are net caught since I have not lost anything from him.