Serious Reef help please

[SLAYCHILD]

Ok guys and ladies. I need some serious reef help with my calcium. Im adding AK and CAL to my along with MAG. But my CAL levels are not going up. There at 10ppm. And Ive been adding them all for about 2 weeks now with no change. Please help. :(

[ansonluna]

What size tank do you have and what do you have in it? What test kit are you using? Your CAL is way low.....so low that I think you are not doing the test right. The salt from water changes will put more CAL in the tank than what you are reading. #1, stop dosing all that stuff until you figure out what is going on or you're gonna crash your tank. ;)

[hobogato]

definitely sounds like a testing problem to me.

[ansonluna]

I know I have gotten confused doing some of these complex tests.....divide by 6, multiply by .2538, subtract by the square root of the 5th number, then flip it upside down and compare that to the chart they provided :wacko

[scuba_steveo]

Yep...sounds like a bad test. Try taking a water sample to a fellow reefer or a LFS with another test kit.

[SLAYCHILD]

Salifert Calcium Test Kit. Im using ESV B-Ionic Calcium Buffer and ESV B-Ionic Magnesium. I have a 29 gallon with live rock and a pink open brain. Thats all for now. I went to Alamo Aquatics and they tested the water and it didnt even show up on th e test kit. They told me to add Magnesium.

[ansonluna]

What side of town are you on?

[SLAYCHILD]

Im off of Marbach and 410

[Dozer]

sounds strange...

What's your kH at? When did you buy the B-Ionic, is there a possibility it is too old or spoiled or something? I don't have experience with B-Ionic but that's all I can think of. Are you SURE you're adding the right amounts?

[SLAYCHILD]

Your telling me. I just set up my 20 gallon and I used the Seachem Reef salt, witch by the way is great. And tested it with the same test kit and it read 420 ppm. So i did a water change on the 29 and used that Seachem salt and tested it a day later and still nothing. Im screwed i guess. :(

[bigdscobra]

Werid, I would try taking a sample to a LFS and see if they could test it too.

[brewercm]

Just curious, but can those test kits only read to a certain level and then they fall off the chart, I've never used that brand so I don't know myseof/ Basically it sounds like you don't have anything in the tank that is really using much calcium, so are you putting in more additives to your tank than is required by what is in your system.

Try and get someone to test it also, maybe with a different kit if possible. How often do you do water changes, and how much water changed at a time?

Gary, where are you. You may also want to PM GaryP. He's the local chemist here.

[SLAYCHILD]

I have taken it to a LFS and had them test it and nothing. They just told me I need to add Magnesium to pull the calcium out of the water. Well thats what they said. I do water changes when ever my Nitrates are around 20. Witch is once a month or so. Sometimes twice cause I have an eel.

[bigdscobra]

Sounds like you have more than one thing out of wack, I would try and do more water changes once a week or maybe twice a week for a little while 10%change this should get you back under normal. Also with as much cal, alk, mag and everything else thats in the salts if you do a water cange every week 10% than I wouldnt dose anything. I dont dose a single think except phyto for the clams and dont have a problem. Also do you have skimmers on these tanks??

[bigdscobra]

Also if these tanks are close to each other you may want to connect them like I did makes it ALOT easier and you increases the amout of water wich equals more stability.

[SLAYCHILD]

Well I do have a skimmer. Im running a Proclear slim line 60 wet/dry with a in sump proclear skimmer. So you think 10% water changes would help out alot. What is that? About 5 gallons or so.

[alton]

Change 5 gal. a week for a month and see if your levels don't even out. And then just get into a routine of 5 gal. a week water changes. P. S. Throw your additives in the trash, in a nano it is easier to do water changes to keep your levels normal then add a little of this and a little of that.

[brewercm]

P. S. Throw your additives in the trash, in a nano it is easier to do water changes to keep your levels normal then add a little of this and a little of that.

I agree, it's like turning your fishies and such into little junkies. :D

[SLAYCHILD]

Ok I see now. I just wish I had someone to like really show me how to do everything. ive only learned from reading the internet or LFS. Thanks

[demodiki]

The learning is just beginning my friend.

[bigdscobra]

10% of the water thats in the tanks/sump/fuge what ever is in your system. On my little system thats the 29g reef, 20g angler, 20g fuge, 10g prop, and the 35g sump is ~105g of water so I do 10g ever week.

I would do the 5g for a couple of weeks than go down to 2.5g a week on the 29g since with sand, rock and other stuff you prob only have ~24 of actuall water you may also want to figure out how much water is in the wet/dry so maybe 3g a week change. ;)

[SLAYCHILD]

Thank you guys. Is anyone one of you going to the meeting on the 22nd. Cause I would like to meet you guy and tell yo uthank you in person. :-)

[bigdscobra]

No problem, I should be there. The fin-addict meeting last year was my first too. LOL

[brewercm]

Hmmmmm, with that username I'm not sure I want to meet. :lol

I'm definately going, it's just down the road for me. Hope to see you there, it looks like we are getting more and more new folks on here all the time.

[SLAYCHILD]

Dude, you have all that many gallons just for a 29 gallon. WOW :unsure

[bigdscobra]

Yeah LOL Check it out here is some older pics may give you and Idea.

http://www.maast.org/modules.php?set_albumName=bigdscobra&op=modload&na me=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php


or here

http://www.maast.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&re q=viewarticle&artid=30&page=1

[SLAYCHILD]

So thats you!!! Tank of the month. Looks great man. Wish mine looked like that.

[bigdscobra]

In time it will ;)

[GaryP]

Ok guys and ladies. I need some serious reef help with my calcium. Im adding AK and CAL to my along with MAG. But my CAL levels are not going up. There at 10ppm. And Ive been adding them all for about 2 weeks now with no change. Please help. :(

10 ppm calcium is almost impossible. Tap water in SA is 180 ppm. This is very weird. I can only think of 2 possibilities: 1. There is some interference in the water causing you to not get a good result with the test kit or 2. they forgot to put the calcium in your salt and the ESV. Not likely.

What is your alkalinity level? If your alkalinity is to high, it can cause the calcium to precipitate out. If that was the case you would notice it though because the water would turn white.

I think the best thing you could do now is perhaps do a couple of 25% water changes over the next couple of weeks. Test the water you make up before doing the water change to see what result you get with your kit. Then test the tank water again after the water change. Allow 30 min. for it to circulate and mix after the water change.

BTW, water changes are not a very good way of managing nitrates, especially when you have a predator like an eeel in a tank that size. I'm surprised they are as low as 20 ppm. Check the nitrates thread for more info on that.

[SLAYCHILD]

I have the Salifert test kit. When I do the low test it shows up. And when I did my 20 gallon. I did the high test and it came out to 420ppm. And I just set that one up.

[scuba_steveo]

I am confused.
Is the eel in the same tank?
I had a 37 gallon for a few years.
If your nitrates get high do a large water change, like 50%, or more. One 50% water chage will cut the nitrate levels in 1/2, where 5-10% water changes will only reduce the levels about 40% and it will take 5 times longer to do. So if you are doing weekly changes you can reduce your nitrate level in a few minutes by 50% or take 5 weeks and reduce it by 40%.

[bigdscobra]

I wouldnt do the 50% water change you would be shocking the tank tooo much! The reason we were saying do the 10% every week is to keep the tank more stable.

For the nitrates,
A fuge or a deeper sand bed or more live rock should help out that.

[GaryP]

I wouldnt do the 50% water change you would be shocking the tank tooo much! The reason we were saying do the 10% every week is to keep the tank more stable.

That's exactly why I recommended weekly 25% water changes. 25% is about the max water change that I would recommend.

There is something seriously out of wack with his water. IMO the best thing to do is a complete turn over in water over a few months and start over from scratch. Here's another issue. Low calcium levels can act as a appetite suppresant for a fish. They're not going to eat well. A tank that size should be getting 10% weekly water changes anyway.

The only way I can see the calcium being that low is if the alkalinity was seriously overdosed and the magnesium levels were also at very low levels. If buffer is not dosed properly it can precipitate out calcium. Even in that case I don't see how it could get that low though. For a decent water chemistry diagnosis I would need to know:

Salinity
Alkalinity
Magnesium
Calcium

[bigdscobra]

Yep ;)

[scuba_steveo]

We may have to choose to disagree. If tank levels are getting out of wack then I would perform a 50% water change. Normal water changes do not have to be this high but I do not believe it would shock the system.

[GaryP]

Steve,

Current Ca = 10 ppm.
Fresh Salt, Ca =~ 400 ppm

After water 50% water change = (400 + 10)/2 = 205

Change = 205-10 = 195 ppm

195 ppm swing in just one component in just a few minutes isn't a major change? That was the basis for my reasoning on this.

[scuba_steveo]

But there is no way the Calcium is at 10ppm now.

[GaryP]

Personally I think there is some sort of interference that is causing the result to be as low as he is getting. That's a best guess. All of these kits have a potential for intereferences. The only way he could get 10 ppm calcium is if the alkalinity is super high and the magnesium is super low. Even in that case, I would think he would see some sort of precipitation of calcium carbonate when he adds ESV.

My previous post was really more about what sorts of changes can occur when trying to make rapid corrections in a system. We sometimes painstakingly take hours, or even days, to acclimate a new critter in our tanks but sometimes don't think twice about dumping in new water during a water change that changes the composition of water in seconds or minutes. How long does it take to add 10 gal. of water to a 20 gal. tank? 2 min? If that long?

We're talking a Nano here, not a system like your's that tilts the foundation of your house.

[scuba_steveo]

We're talking a Nano here, not a system like your's that tilts the foundation of your house.

Very true and good points. I did have a smaller tank at one time! lol.
I remember when I first started someone tolld me a few go bys
1. You cannot have too much light
2. You cannot skim too much
and 3. There is nothing that a big water change will not fix.

If your levels are out of wack in a small tank I would do at least 25% changes at least every other day until everthing is back on track.

I still am not sure that the levels in Slaychild's tank are out of wack.

[scuba_steveo]

See, I have experience with a small tank

[bigdscobra]

Nice tank steve,

I just know from what a 50% water change can do, I went to check out this guys 180g he had some of the biggest clams and brains that I have seen in a tank yet, of corse he didnt know what he was doing and paid a guy that worked at LFS to do a water change the guy recomended a 90g change since it wasnt done in a longe time. Well everything DIED with in the next day, He had thousands in clams and LPS and fish gone from a ~50% water change. So this could still affect a larger system. Just a thought.

[SLAYCHILD]

Ok guys. Anson came over on Sunday and tested the tank. The reason it was not showing up on the test is because my calcium leaves are to high. Around 520ppm. So im just waiting it out so it will go down, thanks guys

[scuba_steveo]

That makes more sense

[bigdscobra]

Cool I would still suggest doing the water changes every week.

[Dozer]

I'm glad you got it figured out. I think I would not be happy that the fish store wasn't more help in that case... But hey, at least MAAST is there!

[SLAYCHILD]

Yes sir, thank guys for all the help.

[GaryP]

Ok guys. Anson came over on Sunday and tested the tank. The reason it was not showing up on the test is because my calcium leaves are to high. Around 520ppm. So im just waiting it out so it will go down, thanks guys
Let me guess, you are using Oceanic salt? What about your alkalinity and pH? I'm willing to bet your alkalinity is low and therefore your pH is low too, especially if you are just pouring in your ESV supplements. .

Alkalinity and Calcium are like jelly beans in a jar. You can put just so many of both in the same jar. If your calcium is high, your alkalinity has to be low and vice versa. You can help this a little by keeping your magnesium levels up. This has the effect of making the jar a little bigger. 520 ppm isn't super high, but I would suggest you do some more testing. I try to keep mine in the 420-450 range.

Credit to Richard for the jelly bean analogy. I blatantly stole it from him.

[bigdscobra]

Gary,

I think he said he was using Seachem Reef salt, Havent really heard any bad/good things about this salt.

[alton]

Gary it was all the additives that raised his levels out of wack. I couldn't remember if it was Richard or Ken who told me about the jelly beans/marbles in a bowl? Glad the problem is solved, good luck in the future.

[GaryP]

Is that the new Seachem Salt that just came out? I talked to their rep at a LFS a few months ago. I think its supposed to be a higher calcium competitor to Oceanic.

I think the lesson here is if you dose it, then you need to test for it. I'm not knocking Slaychild here. Its a common mistake. To many new reefers are sold these additives and told to "just follow the directions on the bottle" That rarely, if ever works. You usually end up over or under dosing.

Alton, maybe it was Ken originally. Now I know who Richard stole it from. :)

[Richard]

Now I know who Richard stole it from.


LOL...I never use the jelly bean analogy. I use the marbles in a jar one. I stole that from Calfo here....

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/calcalkmar.htm

FYI...the hardcore chemists hate that analogy cause it is technically not true since there are things like precipitation to consider bla bla bla...It gets the point across so I like it.

[GaryP]

I hope Anthony didn't copyright that. We both may be in trouble. :)

I consider myself a pretty hardcore chemist, but jelly beans are easier to explain than solubility quotients. Jelly beans don't require upper level math to explain.

[brewercm]

Yeah baby, sounds like I nailed it on the first page of this thread. (As he does his best Ace Ventura dance, if you remember that part of the movie). :lol

Hey, not too often I get something correct while in the presence of greatness like Gary. I'm not worthy. :D

Glad the problem was figured out though, I am curious about the salt though since I do a alternate between Oceanic and IO for water changes.

[GaryP]

I am curious about the salt though since I do a alternate between Oceanic and IO for water changes.
http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/ReefSalt05.html

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/MarineSalt.html

I believe is actually manufactured by the same company that makes Kent and IO.

[gjuarez]

I guess you could use both salts though, but personally I would stick with only one to keep the parameters consistent. Oceanic is very high in calcium and low in alkalinity and Instant ocean is very high in alkalinity and low in calcium. For a while I messed with a 50/50 combination of both but just decided to stay with Instant Ocean. I get better results and I know what I have to adjust with every water change.

[alton]

I knew it was marbles, thanks Richard. Of course Gary you could say jelly beans in a jar and someone else could say black eye peas in a pot? Boy this is getting confusing, lets just stick with the marbles in a bowl.

[SLAYCHILD]

Thanks guys. I understand Gary. I tested my Alk and it was a little high and calcium is around the same. Ph is at 8.2 also. I dont know if that is werd but thats what my test are saying. I dont have a Mag test kit but will buy one as soon as I can. The Seachem salt is amazing if you ask me. I really suggest everyone to use it if they have a reef tank. I set up my 20 gallon and tested it 4 days later and my calcium levels were at 420ppm and the ALK was perfect also. PH was low but just added some buffer and it went back up. Also Gary, I remember you talking about water changes are not a good way of getting rid of nitrates. I have a wet/dry and I cant think of any other way of getting them down except a nitrates sponge, witch I do have or 10% water changes every week. I would like some info on that. Thanks again!!

[GaryP]

Ahhh nitrates!!!! How to get them down? Two ways to do that. A deep sand bed ( at least 4 inches of sugar fine sand) or a refugium. You can put a coarser sand like special grade over the sugar fine to keep it from blowing around. Doing both is what I normally recommend. There are other advantages to a fuge and DSB besides nitrates.

[SLAYCHILD]

I dont know if I can fit a fuge on my tank. Maybe a small hang on.

[bigdscobra]

maybe you can fit a 10g next to your tank and use that as a fuge with a deep sand bed, and some macro algea.

[GaryP]

Here you go:

http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_miscellaneous_cpr_aquafuge_refugiums.asp? ast=overture&key=