Barebottom Tank

[ansonluna]

I am going to be starting a smaller tank here in the distant future. Barebottom was all the buzz not to long ago and I know some of you guys have tried it out and some are running successful systems doing it. My question is....are there any drawbacks that anyone could give me to not do barebottom? Basically, I am wanting the negatives because I know what all the positive are and I would like to use this info to decide which to do. Speaking with GaryP in the past, he has told me about the possibility of having nitrate problems by doing this. Anyone else have more input?

[Flobex]

less space for beneficial bacteria is all i can think of now, though ive never had a bare bottom tank.

[ansonluna]

Well I plan to have a DSB in the fuge and live rubble in one of the sump chambers. I have alot of live rock also, so that wouldn't be a problem. I am downgrading from a 125gal to a 60gal cube.

[ansonluna]

i guess i just like to cleaner look of a barebottom.

[oceancube]

BAREBOTTOM ALL THE WAY.......... :wacko

[ansonluna]

cube, are you saying i'm crazy, or are you for it. :huh

[Ross]

I agree BB rocks. My 12g is barebottom and i love it, zoos and GSP and stuff will attach to the bottom which looks sweet. My nitrates are less than 5, but then again i do water changes like 1 or 2 times a week. I dont have a skimmer though...

[Ram_Puppy]

one of the guys of RC... I think Steve Weast, with the big ol 800 gal? he runs bare bottom but puts a smattering of sand on the bottom for looks, when he cleans, he takes the sand with it, and just replaces the sand each time.

personally, I am going with a shallow 'for show only' sand bed in the main tank, and a deep mud bed in my refugium.

[cpreefguy]

If you attended the Paletta event, he was saying that the only negative aspect of BB was that you lose the reflectivity of the light off of the sand. That could easily be fixed with starboard, or even painting the bottom of the tank white.

[pickle311]

I'll list them all for you here in order.
1. none
2. none
3. none

[JimD]

Un-natural looking,
Doesnt lend itself to sps coloration because of the low nutrients,
Cant keep sand living anmals,
Just plain looks fake.
Bring it on Josh... lol
My prop tanks bare bottom, but I painted the underside white for the reflectiveness. For this application, it works, for a display, not for me. Ive had a sand bed for over five years now and my acros seem happy, (those that have seen my tank can attest to that), and the sand is white a s snow.

[pickle311]

Doesnt lend itself to sps coloration because of the low nutrients,

you lost me there, have you seen the color of SPS in high nutrient tanks? they turn brown, not what most of us are looking for

[JimD]

If your corals are brown, theres most likely other factors involved besides nutrients. Balance is whats needed whether bare bottom or sand bed. Each has its pros & cons.

[ansonluna]

Anson, IME the live rock rubble in the sump ends up being a detritus trap and is not very easy to clean out.

I have cleanup critters in there with the rock and I have powerhead moving things around. What I do is have the drain from the tank empty below the live rock rubble, via egg crate, and so the water runs up through the rubble to fall into the fuge. Then I use a powerhead in the area below the rubble to keep the detris from building up down there.

[gjuarez]

Hey Anson, I posted this at the sps discussion thread last week. This may not answer your question but I thought it would be an interesting read. The negative aspect of going barebottom is that you will have to spend more money in upgradig skimmers and flow: This is my post and only my opinions:



I feel like talking about Barebottom tanks. Anyone else want to join me? I have been barebottom for close to 2 years and it has worked well for me. One day I will have a sand bed again but not until I understand them more thoroughly. Lets talk about why sometimes barebottom tanks dont work. Here is a list of my OPINIONS.

1) Perhaps the biggest reason is the lack of knowledge on how it works. Many aquarist see that some people have great results and jump right into it without doing extensive research on what makes it work. One of the key factors to understand is that a barebottom tank lacks the denitrifying bacteria (anaerobic) that a DSB provides. Hence, without appropriate biological filtration nitrates will not be processed efficiently. A bb tank has less of certain bacterias that a DSB has so an upgrade in mechanical filtration needs to done in order to compensate for the lack of biological filtration. A big skimmer and a lot of flow is the key. Detritus has to be kept in suspension by the flow in order for the skimmer to take it out. Now that we know that organics cannot be processed efficiently in a bb tank, lets prevent nitrates by taking all nutrients out before they break down.

2) Second reason is not cooking the live rock. IMO, an aquarist keeping a bb tank can be succesfull without doing so but it makes it ten times more difficult. Cooking the live rock helps in reducing the amounts of detritus being leached by the rock. Less detritus, less nutrients. With time, rocks store phosphates and by cooking the rock we eliminate all the sources of food for algae. By doing 100% water changes and having zero nutirents, algae is forced to feed of the stored phosphates until it finishes them and starves to death. THe algae eats the phosphates, it dies and in doing so also provides more surface for bacteria to grow. Cant go wrong, its like recharging the rock. Makes the job easier for the skimmer.

3) THird, lack of dedication. Although this is true for any method of reefkeeping, IMO it is more critical for BB. BB offers no forgiveness, not as flexible as DSB. Although most detritus will be swept away by hte flow, there will be some that just wont go. Detritus needs to be siphoned regularly. Some of it also will also settle inside the sump and it must be syphoned out. Since I have a small tank and sump, it is easy for me to dismantle the sump and dispose of all the water and detritus very easily.

4) SOme bb users over do it and make their tank too sterile. Corals need a little bit of nutrients too and thats including phosphates, just a little bit though. A common problem is feeding too lightly in order to keep nutrients low. IMO, the key is to feed plenty but also have the appropirate mechanical filtration to take it out. Low nutrient has been reported in a couple of articles as the cause of discoloration of sps.

I have no scientific proof to offer, I can only state the opinions I have developed through research and experince. I know i didnt not state some of the things appropriately but this is why this is a discussion thread, so we can talk about it. I also encourage people who understand how DSBs work to post and we can compare them both and see how they both manage to work even though they are different. Not trying to say one is better than the other, there is proof that both work. Lets make it a nice discussion without flaming. Gary and Todd, any chance that you guys might be interested in a healthy debate? Common, I miss those informative threads. Richard, you too. Larry (Instar)?
Jerry

[ansonluna]

Thanks, that was informative.

[gjuarez]

Anson, like I said, I have no scientific research. Its just my understanding through my experience and research, strictly my opinions based from my experience and others as well. I am not close to being expert at this hobby, I encourage you to keep doing more research because others give more detailed info, maybe more accurate as well. This is only my take or barebottom methodology. The only thing I can say that is certain is that it has worked for me.

[Bill S]

Well, frankly, I LIKE a thin sand bottom - my 55 has about 1/2 inch. My Nassarius snails keep it white. When I do my new tank, I'll probably do the same.

[gjuarez]

SPS thrive in a barebottom tank because of low nutrients, NO nutrients though could cause discoloration.

[JimD]

Yup....

[TheOtherGuy]

Sadly, the waterless reef tank just never caught on. :o

[hobogato]

sure would have been a lot easier to clean ^^^^ :lol :lol

[gjuarez]

So Anson, did you finally figured out what you were going to do? Keep us posted and lets discuss more about this.

[GaryP]

I doubt that an apprpriately fed tank can be too low in nutrients unless you have some sort of filtration system that takes everything but the salt out. For example, most food contains about 1% phosphate based on dry weight. If you feed 1 oz. of food per day, that's equal to .3 gm. of phosphate being introduced to the system per day. That's every day you feed. A larger percentage of that will be passed through your critters in the form of waste. The nitrogen numbers are even higher. No filtration system is 100% efficient, so you are going to have some sort of accumulation.

The BB system is largely based on the control of solid wastes in the form of detritus. What about soluble wastes such as ammonia? No matter how much siphoning you do, you aren't doing to remove ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Ammonia is excreted by fish the same way we excrete urea to eliminate excess nitrogen. This is going to be converted to nitrate in a mature system fairly quickly. Where does it go in a BB system?

Likewise, meta phosphate may be removed by skimming, but where does the water soluble, inorganic ortho phosphate go?

For me, its hard to debate something where there is no data, only a lot of personal theory based on individual observations. Show me the Money! Or rather in this case, "Show me the Data"

[gjuarez]

Gary, let me take advantage that you are online and ask for you opinion. I think Anson will benefit as well so I am not worried about hijacking. Let me give you some specs on my setup and please help me in forseeing any problems that I may encounter. Here we go:

29 Gallon barebottom Tank
50-60 pounds of live rock for filtration
Turboflotor 1000 - ordering next week
Tunze 6060 and a couple of maxijets for flow
250w mh setup with reeflux bulb
Icecap 430 with 75w URI actinic bulbs
Ultralife auto top off to maintain gravity and salinty

Maintenance and Filtration:
Biological
-55-60 live rock

Mechanical
-Turboflotor 1000 skimming very wet, tunze 6060 to keep detritus suspended
-20% water changes per week
-regularly syphoning and tearing sump apart weekly to dispose of settled detritus in the sump

THe plan in simple, try to take out stuff before it breaks down in the tank, I am sure you have heard that a thousand times. LOL Can't I just count on the live rock to handle the nitrogen cycle? Are the 20 water changes per week enough? WHat problems down the road may I encounter? I dont plan on using any phosphate removers, pretty much no other chemical filtration except for a little carbon. As far as nitrates, are the water changes enough?

[GaryP]

OK, let me rattle off a few observations.

1. Why not install a sock filter on your drain line coming into the sump? Then you won't have to clean the sump. I swap out sock filters weekly, rinse and bleach the dirty one and then hang it up and let it dry in the sun. Just a lower labor alternative.

2. Water Changes are a very poor method for managing nutrients IMO. Remember that if you do a 20% water change, you are only reducing mutrients by 20% too. If you have 10 ppm nitrates, you will still have 8 ppm after the water change. Even after 4 X 20% water changes, if no additional nitrate is added (impossible) you will still have 4 ppm nitrates. I have a feeling the skimmer will do a better job then water changes will. I think the water changes are a bit excessive.

3. I think you should reconsider your phosphate management strategy. Where are phosphates being exported in your system other then binding to live rock?

The problem with taking it out before it breaks down is that there is no mechanism to remove the soluble stuff being excreted by your critters. The fish are going to excrete soluble ammonia and phosphates. I'm not the BB expert aropund here. Maybe Todd or Joshua can jump in here.

[hobogato]

if im not mistaken, gary - correct me if im wrong - , the live rock is great for bacteria that change the ammonia into nitrite and nitrite into nitrate, but not so good for the facultative anaerobes that will not change the nitrite into nitrate if they are given oxygen. the liverock is usually too porous, and allows too much oxygenated water to get to those bacteria.

the water changes will work, but if you add in more nitrates than you are taking out with a water change, it can build up

for example: if you add in 10 ppm nitrate thru feeding and the nitrogen cycle, when you do a 20% water change, you only take that level down to 8 ppm. add 10 the next week and another water change, and you are around 13%. obviously, there are other things that will help with the nitrate reduction besides water changes, otherwise, you wouldn't hear of all the success of barebottom tanks.

i just like to give myself a little more room to play with, so if i overfeed or miss a water change, i dont have a nitrate spike.

now the disclaimer - just my opinion, my experience and a little bit of bio knowledge from college.

[GaryP]

Ace,

I think we are on the same track here. There is some anaerobic activity in the deep pores of the LR, but there is so little flow through there that its not a major contributor to the total denitrification mass balance.

[hobogato]

i do like the idea of the barebottom system with the giant ball of chaeto in the sump - i forgot who has that setup. as long as you manage phosphates (so they dont inhibit the growth of the chaeto - from the paletta talk), it will do a good job of exporting nitrate as it grows.

[GaryP]

I'd like to see someone try Richard's deep carbon bed with a BB main tank in conjunction with the Chaeto.

I can't help tinkering.

[gjuarez]

Sorry, I guess I forgot to mention that I built a DIY sump/refugium. It will be barebottom and it has some eggcrate to keep the macro (most likely chaeto) from being sucked by the pump. That is my main source to help with nitrates and phosphates. THe micro algae being grown in the fuge should be of some help as well. I totally forgot to mention this. WIth this being said, do you guys think that I still will have problems.

[gjuarez]

Thanks Brian, I have read that. Pretty much all of it as well as Bomber's original thread on barebottoms(the modern way). Let me add that I have had a barebottom tank before, the only thing is that I only had if for about 10 months, had to take it down because it was leaking. I had excellent results but I must admit that I dont consider that long term results. That is why I am getting second opinions. First time I did it, I didnt have an adequate skimmer and my maintenance routine wasnt very well planned. Even like that I had success. This time I want to do everything perfect and make sure my corals grow like crazy. I believe I am ready and have all necessary equipment to be successfull. Its good great to get second opinions to prevent future problems.

[hobogato]

most of the barebottom setups i have seen dont have a very big fish bioload. if you ever get a chance jerry, go see brian's tank, nice clean barebottom, but not skimpy on the fish. most BB tanks dont have very many fish.

[GaryP]

most BB tanks dont have very many fish.
And there lies the root of my problem with a BB system. There is something wrong with a reef with no fish IMO.

[GaryP]

So when are you going to put some fish in there? :)

[gjuarez]

Ace, I would have to put that on my itenerary during my next trip to San Antonio, thats if its allright with Brian. ;) Brian, for a skimmer I think the turboflotor I am planning on getting for my 29g should be more than enough, possibly even a small euroreef, what do you think? FOr flow, I have a tunze 6060 and a couple of maxijets, good enough? I tried it the other day and my tank looks like a flushing toilet. Detritus will hate it and the corals will love it. The water changes I am planning on doing are not only for dillution, but also to replace trace elements as well. I dont plan on adding anything to the tank, just B-Ionic and drip Kalkwasser to maintain levels. I cant wait to set it up. Right now I am still cooking some of the live rock.

[hobogato]

heck jerry - id even let you come see my cruddy sandy bottom tank if you want - maybe i could bring you over to the dark side! ;)

[gjuarez]

LOl. I would love to see your setup. Heck, maybe I can coordinate myself a tank tour. The only tank I have seen is Pete's, great setup btw. I would love to see other's people tanks, I havent seen many except for the ones online. I also would like to see Gary's and Todd's tank. Oh, and Joshuas amazing zoos. Little tank tour for the valley reefer, or maybe even reefers. What do ya'll say?

[hobogato]

the big one's i have seen are steve rogers, gary, pete, mikeyboy, todd, and brian. its amazing to see the variety, but if you wanted to do a tour, that's where you should start. i have also heard of many other nice setups like don and jimd.

[gjuarez]

Ace, that sounds like a good lineup. I would like to see Steve's tank, he has invited me previously, dont know if he remembers though. I would like to spend some time learning a little from each tank so I guess the one's closest to each other would be more feasible. I think I am PMing everyone on the list and see what they say. Do all these people live in San ANtonio? Joshua, what about you? I sure would like to get a glimpse of your zoos.

[hobogato]

pete, brian, steve, and joshua are close together on the NW side, then todd and scuba steve (sorry forgot him on the list) are close together and not too far from mikeyboy. im farthest from everyone, on the NE side of town.

[cpreefguy]

Ive had a 2-3" sandbed, DSB, DSB with the Jaubert plenum, and currently have 1/4" of sand. Ive seen the best results with a 1/4" of sand. My next tank is definatly going to be BB. After you see Brians tank, why wouldnt you? :)

[NaCl_H2O]

Un-natural looking,
Doesnt lend itself to sps coloration because of the low nutrients,
Cant keep sand living anmals,
Just plain looks fake.
Bring it on Josh... lol
My prop tanks bare bottom, but I painted the underside white for the reflectiveness. For this application, it works, for a display, not for me. Ive had a sand bed for over five years now and my acros seem happy, (those that have seen my tank can attest to that), and the sand is white a s snow.

Getting into this post really late, but ... yea, what JimD said!

Tank tour, sure ... bring your frags :skeezy

[NaCl_H2O]

Sold my tank! :cry
The "Ultimate Bare Bottom Tank" :P :P

[cpreefguy]

yeah, 'twas sweet

[gjuarez]

LOl. Joshua you are not alone buddy. You can count on the maast mafia if you need help. We are taking over the dark side. :)

[ansonluna]

juarez, thanks for hijacking the thread!!! :D i am really learning alot. I haven't recieved the tank yet, hopefully it will come in this week, so i haven't really made a desicion yet on what i want to do, as far as very thin layer or bb completely. although if a i have a fuge with a DSB, is it really a bb?

[v2k]

I have a barebottom tank, with a BB refugium stuffed with macroalgae, and a home made protein skimmer (counter current)...am tremendously enjoying the results...iit's about 5 months old. I would feel very lucky to participate in conversations with Gerry and Brian, and view Brian's tank. May I join you? I still have many adjustments to make.

[hobogato]

anson - when i was setting up my tank, i had this discussion with todd, and he said that a BB system means that it is sand free. i was gonna set mine up just like your discription, but when it came time, i just couldnt get past the fact that i like the look of sand in the bottom of the tank.

[gjuarez]

V, you can certainly join the conversation. Anydoby can. We would love your feedback.

[brewercm]

I was thinking of doing the same when I set up this tank. Go BB on the tank and have a fuge with a DSB, actually was going to have white starboard in the main tank. At the very end I desided to go with a thin layer (.5 to 1 inch) of sand just for looks. I've seen some BB and loved one I saw with the starboard, it just wasn't for me in the end, personal decision.

[GaryP]

According to Todd, you don't want any sand in a BB tank, even in the fuge, in order to lower the total bioload.

[ansonluna]

so will the system fail if I do a DSB? what if i went with a non-DSB in fuge, like a couple of inches.

[hobogato]

i think the point of barebottom is to keep the bioload as low as possible and keep the bottom clean so it is easy to syphon detritus. if you have a sand bed anywhere in your system, it will collect detritus so you have to maintain it or have some snails and other critters in it to maintain it for you.

[gjuarez]

Yup, what ace said. You can go with a barebottom fuge as well. I modified my sump/fuge to be able to do so.

[ansonluna]

so what the heck do you keep in a fuge with no sand?!?!?!? :w00t Obviously cheato, I have tons of that stuff. hmmm, i guess the thought is just scary, i have been into SW for a little over a year now, and my goal was always to get a good amount of critters in my sand to maintain the overall cleanliness of the tank and now i would be going against that. SCARY :blink

[gjuarez]

Well the critters maintain the sand, not necessarily the tank. No sand, not that much need for critters, except for and adequate cleaning crew for the live rock.

[ansonluna]

BOOO AND HISSSSS I SAY!!!! I just named the three gigantic bristle woms I can see from underneath my tank.......or maybe it is just one big one leaving a trail along all 6 feet of my tank :blink , oh well. I will definitely ponder the fully BB system and decide what I am going to do.

[gjuarez]

good luck with whatever you decide to do. If you go with a DSB, start a thread on that as well. I wouldnt mind learning more about them. Gary will give you some useful info on that. I think you can even do a search and get all the info you need.

[TexasState]

One of my tank has been bare bottom for over a year. It's bare bottom, no water, nothing. Except for dusting, it's a hassle free system.

[gjuarez]

Brian, did you make pvc racks? If so, how did you keep the racks from sliding on the surface of the starboard.

[ansonluna]

what did you chissel into the rock? i guess can you be more specific :) .

[Ross]

a chisel and hammer works good.

[ansonluna]

;) ahhh. there are never stupid questions, only stupid people :D .

[JeffCo]

To create more open space within the rockwork for fish and flow I used a big milk crate. Then piled the rocks all over it. The fish love the Cove it made and I get great flow through the rocks.

[gjuarez]

Hey Anson, what did you decide on?

[ansonluna]

Going BB. I have just had to have the stand, hood and sump built. Will be showing it off next week, when it is in the new place. I will just move this thread to the "equipment and do it yourself".

[Thunderkat]

I have a plenum system (deep sand bed) and the one thing I really like about it is how fast my soft corals grow (lots of food produced for them by the deep sand bed). I also just checked my calcium and I am sitting at 500 ppm and still have my bottle of B-ionic in the shrink wrap still unopened waititng for the day they are needed. My coralline algae grows so fast that I see the hermit crabs tearing off big chunks from the glass and eating it just to see it grow back faster than the hermit crabs can eat it.

I also love to watch all the worms in the sand, not to mention my 2 fighting conches and nessarius snails submerging and surfacing from the sand to eat.

I don't know if I can attribute this to my sand bed but I have also bought a fish with ich (didn't see it until it was too late) and it recovered quickly in my tank, and I even bought a LPS coral that was very damaged when I acquired it (again didn't see it until I got home) and now it is doing great.

Gary taught me about the plenum system and I am so happy I followed his advice and tried it, it made a tremendous difference (see my gallery for before and after pictures).

I am not saying barebottoms are bad, some of my friends have magazines full of pictures of them :skeezy but they are just not for me.

[Brian1f1]

I really don't like the look of bb's. Its just not natural. At least put some rock rubble down there! I have a 2 to 3 inch sand bed in my reef and it has been perfectly stable with tons of life. Mine is very uneven so I have some area's with little sand and some with 5 or even 6 inches. This alows you to keep all sorts of cool sand dwelling animals. Your going to Exclude yourself from the Jawfish party!!