taking the plunge into my first SW setup

[Flobex]

the title says it all. the first of the year i am going to set my 20 gallon tank up as a SW tank. this will be my very first SW trank, so i will be asking ALOT of questions :P. first off. the equipment i already have is the 20 gallon tank, and a filter, a rio 200 powerhead, and a cheapy hydrometer.. At first im juts going to do a FOWLR setup, untill i can afford to get some corals. but im going to go ahead, and buy the upgraded lights now. im getting the orbit compact flourescent light, with 130 watts, and 2 lunar lights. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=11348&N=2004+113345
That lighting should be plenty to grow corals in the future... right?
also i was thinking of getting another powerhead, or will the rio 200, and the top fin 20 filter be enough?
im also going to buy a floating hydrometer for more exact specific gravity readings. (i cant afford a digital recractometer or whatever)
then im going to buy a heater, salt, and sand.
so the final list of equipment- tank, filter, rio powerhead, lights, heater, hydrometer. is this all the equipment i need, or is theer more you can think of? also, ive been told by many aquarists that protien skimmers are not nessecarry on tanks under 29 gallons. so im going to go without, but maybe in the later future i will get one. will this be ok, or should i get one now?

so then im going to get 20 LBS of sand, and im goiung to gte some porous rock (maybe ill make some of my own...) and ill get about 20-30 LBS of live rock, and let it seed the porous rock, and sand.

as for fish i have no clue what to do... if possible i would LOVE to get a maroon clownfish, but will he be comftorble in a 20 gallon forever, or would he eventually need a bigger tank. and if i get the maroon, could i put anything else in with him? like a YT damsel. i want to start with cheaper, hardy fish, since this is my firsat setup, and god only knows what can go wrong :P

thanks a ton, ill probably add whatever i forgot, or think of soon. please give me any advice, or anything that could help me. tell me what you would have done different your first time. i really want to get this right.
also, i have 250 bucks to spend, and i'd like to get the tank filled with salt, sand and all the equipment with that. maybe even a little rock. if you have any extra equipment that you dotn need, let me know also.
again, thaks a ton!!!

Edit** i forgot the most important part!! a SW test kit :P (told ya id forget something:P)

[demodiki]

You can get away without a skimmer if you are diligent with your water changes and other maintenance. I just think the skimmer gives you a lot of breathing room...especially as a noob.

I would stay away from the Rio powerheads. They do have a nasty reputation. I would look in on the Maxijets, instead.

The maroon will get too big for that tank. I would also stay away from damsels. Damsels in that size of a tank will be very territorial. Shoot..the maroon will be very territorial!

Your lights will be fine for many corals...zoos, shrooms, lps...it may be okay for some sps but I will let those experts answer that question.

Good luck!

[Flobex]

awesome, thank you. i will invest in a maxijet, and ill try to get a small skimmer, but that may not happen for a few months. ill ask for one for my b-day in april :P

also does anyone have a link on how to make the rock out of foam? i know you use the foam, and make the shape, and all, but what do you cover it with? just a thin layer of silicone, and some sand?

ill look into soem different fish, and also. what kind of skimmer does anyone reccomend?

[mathias]

get away as soon as a possible... RUN RUN RUN don't do salt


:)

[Flobex]

LOL! ive been wanting to do it for so long, my dream is to eventually have this tank full of corals, there just so beautiful.

[Shark_Bait]

Learn from my mistakes... Make sure the tank is level !! Check in all directions check at the top and bottom. Looks kinda funny when the water is below the cap on one side and not the other. Or you could call one end the deep end of the pool.
Good luck. As I feel the smaller the tank the more diligent you have to be. Bigger is easier. You are doing the right thing by buying good lights now instead of trying to update later. Your in the right place and keep asking questions.

[tony]

i just started my first nano (pics: http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16124

check out nano-reef.com along with maast for information there are tons of info on 20g tanks out there

good luck and ask plenty of questions,

tony

[tony]

oops

[Flobex]

thanks a bunch guys!! and shark bait, i did the same thing with my firsat tank :P the difference in the water below, and above the black strip bugged the crap outa mne :P
ive been in FW for about a year, and a half, and ive been looking in to SW for about 6 months. thanks for the links, i will check those out. i chose the 20 gallon, becaus ei knew 10 gallons was to small to keep up with, like evaporation, and my 58 is to expensive to make into a SW, so i decided the 20 would be a little easy to start with on maitinence, and it is right in my price range, so its perfect :P

nice looking tank purejoy.

[hobogato]

if i were in your place, knowing what i do now, i would keep the 58 gal. for SW and sell the 20 gal. it wouldn't be that much more to set the 58 gallon tank up the way you were gonna do the 20, except lighting and liverock, which you can find here pretty cheap in the for sale forum. just from past experience (i have had 20gal, 58gal, 60gal, 125gal and now 240gal tanks thru the years) that 20 gallon tank is gonna make you more of a slave than the 58 gallon would. more water is more stable. just an opinion.

[Flobex]

yes i realize this, but when i get to buying corals, and LR the price is very dif. from what ive found. also i am in 10th grade, and i would just have to tear apart the 58 gallon in 2 years, where the 20 gallon i will more than likley be able to keep in my college dorm. i'd love to set up the 58, but its just not practical (plus my room right now is extremley tiny :P)
as for fish, how many could i do in there? about 2 small fish or 3? i need some reef safe fish also. ill look on the webv, and if you have any suggestions, lemme knwo :)

[tony]

small clown
gobys
cardinals
etc . . .


decent list: http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/scateg.cfm?pCatId=2124

[Flobex]

thanks purejoy.
how about...
1 purple firefish
1 hi fin red banded goby
1 percula clownfish.
would these be compatible together? and with corals?

[tony]

thanks purejoy.
how about...
1 purple firefish
1 hi fin red banded goby
1 percula clownfish.
would these be compatible together? and with corals?

never owned any of them

this would be well worth your $19 investment:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1890087386/qid=1135280963/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-8962363-5250225?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

[Flobex]

next time im by Barnes and nobles i will look into that. ill deffinetly buy it :)

[Flobex]

also, ive heard its bad to have a cover on SW tanks, should i juts go coverless, or would it be wise to buy a glass canopy, and leave the front open?

[Shark_Bait]

The reason some people go coverless is for heat. Unless you get a chiller the only real way for a tank to cool down is through evaporation. A cover slows that down. But I'm not sure what's best for a smaller tank like a 20. Because in my 75 I loose 1 gallon a day. If you were to loose a gallon in your tank that would throw all sorts of things off. As just H2O evaporates and would leave behind the salt and all the other trace elemnts making thier contration higher. Hopefull one of the nano guys will chime in and give thier opinion on covers on smaller tanks.

[gjuarez]

I have a 29g tank, is that still considered a nano? Anyways, I wouldnt go with a canopy simply because of the heat issue. Evaporation is the way to go if you dont have a chiller and you can add a couple of computer fans to help with the evaporation. IF you go without the canopy, that will give you better light penetration as well.

[tony]

ive had both open and a canopy on my 12g and see benefits of both

mine stays cooler open but evaporates much more (@ 1L/day)

when i had the canopy on mine the evaporation was hardly noticeable each day

[Flobex]

hmmm.... so i dunno... i think i may just get the canopy, and try both... il try half open, half closed, and see how that goes...

[chrismikea]

i have a 20 gallon tank that has been running for a long time now with fish and coral. and i love it, the only fish i have are a pair or black clowns there home, got tons of zoos,some hammers,mushrooms,rics. i love having a smaller sized tank. you can see everything that goes on in there

[Flobex]

do you hahve a hood on you tank?

[Andrew]

thanks purejoy.
how about...
1 purple firefish
1 hi fin red banded goby
1 percula clownfish.
would these be compatible together? and with corals?

The above list sounds good. :)

I wouldn't add any more fish (than in this list) unless you add a protein skimmer. In my experience, AquaC makes the best hang on back (HOB) protein skimmers for the money. The others such as the red sea and back pack brands need constant adjustment to be of much use.

Concerning corals, the orbit fixture will be adequate for most corals, but may not provide enough light for some small polyp stonies (SPS). Since you may be moving to college soon, I'd recommend many of the soft corals such as leathers, star polyps, ricordia etc. and/or large polyp stonies like open brain, bubble, Turbinaria, etc. The orbit is plenty powerfull enough for these.

HTH
and welcome to an extremely addicting hobby.
Don't let it consume you ;)

Andrew

[Flobex]

^ it already has :P as of last month i was up to 6 tanks, but now im back down to 3.

[Instar]

Flobex, Buyng online is great and may save a buck on things like lighting, but I think you should also get at least some of your equipment and help from your neighbor in Spring Branch, Richard at CB Pets. He's one of the most knowledgeable, helpful and accurate people in your area and Richard will give you accurate information and great advice on what you need to do what you want to do with your tank. If you get into a bind later or have some disease take hold, he's your source for help and he's right there, basically next door, so thats why I mention it early on here.

[GaryP]

CB Pets also quarantines and treats their fish for parasites. That can be very beneficial, especially with a small tank.

[Flobex]

yes, i purchase all of my fish from CB pets. there tanks are wonderful. ive yet to talk to Richard about anything, because ussually when i go there i have limited time, but i am hoping to get to talk to him very soon.

Another question, would 375 watts be way to much for this tank? would evaporation be un controllable with all that light?

also i found a decent priced portable refractometer, so im going to get that instead of the floating hydrometer.

[Flobex]

http://cgi.ebay.com/OCTOPUS-HOB-PROTEIN-SKIMMER-BH-100-by-CoralVue_W0QQitemZ7732595485QQcategoryZ46313QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
is this a good protien skimmer? the aquaC skimmers were way to expensive. also i found everything i was looking for brand new on ebay, so if i bbuy it all on ebay i can get everything i wnated plus a skimmer :)

[GaryP]

also, ive heard its bad to have a cover on SW tanks, should i juts go coverless, or would it be wise to buy a glass canopy, and leave the front open?

There are a couple of issues with glass covers on a tank:

1. No matter how often you clean it, its going to build up stuff on it that will prevent transmission of light. We spend a lot of money on lighting and electricity for it, you don't want to lose any of it.

2. The glass itself, even if perfectly clean, its going to absorb some percentage of the light.

3. Evaporation is how most tanks cool themselves. No evaporation = no cooling = hot water = dead livestock. Glass covered tanks are primarily for freshwater or fish only tanks where lighting isn't such a big issue. The purpose of computer cooling fans as was mentioned earlier is to actually increase cooling by moving more lower humidity air into the tank. If you are going to build a hood with fans, over design it. I have found that the worst time of the year for cooling is the spring and fall when the windows are open, or AC isn't running very much. The humidity is higher in the house because of this. I have additional cooling capacity available to me by plugging in an extra set of fans at this time of the year. Most of the rest of the year I just run a few fans on my 125 on a timer so they are only running when the lights are on.

4. One disadvantage of a totally open topped tank (no hood) is that a lot of fish have a tendency to be jumpers. You can loose a lot of fish that way. I plan on putting some mesh screen on the back of my next hood. I call it a "fish trampoline." I may end up with some salt creep issues, but I'm going to give it a try.

[hammondegge]

i run a 20gal seahorse tank uncovered. only looses about 1/2 gallon per day. i think another issue might be gas exchange. this tank has a 175mh about 18in above it and would cook if the glass was there. also would take daily maintenance to keep glass clean

[Flobex]

hmmm... now i underdstand the evaporation thing, but im not goiung to have a hood at all, just a light. im not building a canopy for this tank at the moment, so it will just have the light with legs, and nothing on top of the tank, should i try mesh as a cover? just small enough, so no fish can get through it... i think ill try that, and see how it goes.

also, with all the evaporation, i realize the salt will stay in the water, so ill just need to add FW mostly, and maybe a little salt? im going to get the tank running, maybe with a little live rock, but no fish or inverts, so i can get used to the maitinence, and get the salinity right. ill just have to play around untill i get it.

[hammondegge]

add only ph adjusted fresh water (RO or distilled). adjust ph with a buffer.

[hammondegge]

hood and mesh depends on the fish. i have a yellow watchman goby in with the seahorses and he has been jump free for a few months. though i think i tried to partially cover the tank for a few days after introducing him.

[Flobex]

ill have to see with how my fish act on the cover, and as for buffers do i really need any, because we have well water, so the water was naturally buffered with limestone. the ph is 8.2

[hammondegge]

i would think not, unless you filter out the minerals before adding it to the tank.

[Flobex]

ok cool beans.

[dpantle]

You might want to give Richard at CB Pets a try on that protien skimmer. By the time you pay for shipping on ebay, it's about the same price.

http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16472

[Richard]

there tanks are wonderful. ive yet to talk to Richard about anything, because ussually when i go there i have limited time, but i am hoping to get to talk to him very soon.


I'm there Sunday thru Thursday so introduce yourself when you have time and we can talk. I'm usually in the fish area or in the back so just ask for me.

If there are a bunch of little kids in the store running around, screaming and stuff then just look for the irritated guy, that will be me :) .

[Flobex]

lol. i will do. i will deffinetlly be stopping by after the first of theh year, to buy some stuff. if your prices can beat dr fosater ill be buying alota stuff :P. i will ask for ya :)

[tony]

there tanks are wonderful. ive yet to talk to Richard about anything, because ussually when i go there i have limited time, but i am hoping to get to talk to him very soon.


I'm there Sunday thru Thursday so introduce yourself when you have time and we can talk. I'm usually in the fish area or in the back so just ask for me.

If there are a bunch of little kids in the store running around, screaming and stuff then just look for the irritated guy, that will be me :) .


haha you are never around when i come up, i have to "settle" for mark. lol j/k hes answered tons of stupid questions for me. wifey and i love your store and the help we receive there. well worth the drive for us!

[Richard]

ill have to see with how my fish act on the cover, and as for buffers do i really need any, because we have well water, so the water was naturally buffered with limestone. the ph is 8.2


Actually you would do well to use di water. If your well water is anything like mine ,which I'm sure it is, then it will have low (but still too high) phosphate and that alkalinity will be around 6 meq/l (15 - 16 dKH). That's really too high and will give you some problems. Fish will tolerate it but you may have problems with corals.

[Richard]

haha you are never around when i come up, i have to "settle" for mark. lol j/k hes answered tons of stupid questions for me. wifey and i love your store and the help we receive there. well worth the drive for us!


Well I thank you for coming all the way to our store. Funny, there are people who think I never work and people who think Mark never works. Not like the first couple years when we both worked ALL the time. I'm so glad those days are over.

[Flobex]

ill have to see with how my fish act on the cover, and as for buffers do i really need any, because we have well water, so the water was naturally buffered with limestone. the ph is 8.2


Actually you would do well to use di water. If your well water is anything like mine ,which I'm sure it is, then it will have low (but still too high) phosphate and that alkalinity will be around 6 meq/l (15 - 16 dKH). That's really too high and will give you some problems. Fish will tolerate it but you may have problems with corals.

di? whats that? is that a chemical i can put inn there? ill try to come by a soon as i can (i dotn drive, so i have to go when my parents go to HEB :P) maybe you can show me some stuff you have at CB pets...

[Ram_Puppy]

Di = Dionized water. you can buy it cheap at CB pets if you don't have a filter, it's actually taking stuff out of the water (almost everything) not putting stuff in, so no additived. CB pets has an awesome commercial grade DI system that will make the best water you can absolutely get.

As for the other stuff: I have had some bad experiences (great for learning!) that will hopefully guide you.

1) 20 is small, heat WILL be an issue. be careful how many power heads you add to the tank, this includes filters, skimmers, etc.. anything that has a moving part will add heat. (then add light heat and your actual heater.) I stewed my 30 gallon by putting in to many pumps, I was pushing the upper limit on heat, then one went bad and presto. coral stew.

Even though people knock them, I like the powersweep powerheads, they are a cheap ecenomical source of flow in your tank, but you have to be 'religious' in your maintenance of them, luckily, this is easy enough thanks to a lesson from richard. buy a 5 dollar bottle of muratic acid from home depot and dunk your powersweeps (take them apart first and wear gloves!) in a weak solution, and watch your powerheads make like an alka-seltzer tablet. I cleaned one 4 weeks ago that I thought was a lost cause, works like a champ now, looks like it was fresh out of the box! I would think that a better solution than putting in lots of power heads, or bigger ones, for more flow.

2) don't skimp on a skimmer. as was said, you can get away without having one if your dilligent in your tank maintenance. But I would say there is good argument that a cheap skimmer is not better than no skimmer, for instance, I had a prizm overflow it's collection cup once because they are darn near friggin IMPOSSIBLE to dial in... (at least for me) and the mess, well, it was smelly... People who buy cheap skimmers almost always end up buying better skimmers later.

I don't know anyone who has experience with the coralvue octopus skimmer, so I can't comment on that.

However, I do have experience with a Remora that makes stinky nasty skimate!

And it just so happens, that AquaC is FINALLY releasing their NANO Remora this year, designed for tanks in your size range, and undoubtedly cheaper than what they have out now. That would be my buy if I was doing a tank that small again.

[Richard]

Here's an really good article for you (or anyone) on things to consider when choosing a skimmer. Rather long but worth the read.

http://www.proteinskimmer.com/skimmerdatabase.htm

[Flobex]

thanks a bunch guys. ram pouppy, i was looking into those sweepinf power heads, ill probably get one. also how much is the DI water? and how much is the system to make it?
i will readf that article, thanks Richard.

[Flobex]

wooohooo!! i got a 50 dollar gift certificate to CB Pets :):):):). see ya soon richard!!!! lol.

[Flobex]

hmmm... i got to thinking today, and i was thinking of maybe gettiong the stand, and sump from my 58 gallon, and put a piece if plywood on top of the stand, so i can put the 20 gallon tank on there, and using a sump for this tank... it would be much n9icer to be able to put all theh equipment in the sump, and a 20 gallonj sump for a 20 gallon tank would be extremley nice, as trhat will almost double the amount of water in my system, so it wioll be alittle more stable, and it wouldnt cost to much more.

[Flobex]

well im gonna drill the 20, and do the sump, annd also ive priced evrything, down to the last elbow :P and it came out around 315 dollars. and that is everything except sand, and LR (and salt and a SW test kit, but i already bought those.) so im happy. then that leaves me with about 35 bucks for some LR. im getting sand with a gift certificate, so yea... ill be ready to fill her up sooner than i thought :)

i also think im going to start putting in all my prices in heer, so another beginner can have an idea of what they are gonna be spending. im thinking once i get a protien skimmer, corals, fish and its all setup, and an RO/DI unit, ill have probably spent around 900 dollors.
so this is what ive bought so far-
Tank-50$
stand/sump-40$
sand, test kit, salt-50$
thats what ive gotten so far.
my prices for what equipment im getting is an estimate,
about 315 for the lights, portable refractometer, heater, sump media, return pump, and all plumbing. and 25' of airline tubing.
then about another 150 for fish, and cleanup crews, shrimp ect.
then about 75 for a protien skimmer.
about 200(?) for corals?
and maybe in the distant future a RO/DI unti, and an auto topoff unit (ill leave those out of the budget for now :P) so that puts me ayt a total of... 880 dollars.

[Flobex]

aha! i thought of another question, what is the difference between cured, and uncured live rock? if i got uncured live rock is it neccesarry to cure it? if so, how do i do this?