Skimmer gurus need opinions

[dwdenny]

Here is a link (http://www.nautilusreef.com/html/protein_skimmers.html) to a skimmer that I am thinking trying to DIY myself. I like the design but not sure if it will be good to make something simular too. I may end up talkin with pete to make a skimmer but I think I might want to try myself.

Difference from one posted

Reaction chamber from 6"ODX12"H to 6"ODX20"H
Collection Cup 6"ODX5"H to 6"ODX7"H
Foam Riser tube 2.5"ODX5" not sure if I need to change this?

I have 33" space under my stand to play with and I want a skimmer that I can move to a larger tank if(I mean when) I upgrade to a larger tank.

Last question is a NW skimmer better then a venturi skimmer or not. In the above skimmer I may not do the vortex part and go with a NW style pump. What is your opinions.

Thanks
Doug

[matt]

I couldn't get the link to work, so my comment is based on the photo you posted. If your tank is 100 gallons or bigger, maybe you should make a beckett skimmer. I bet that would be much more powerful than the one in the photo. For a small tank, some sort of design like the one you posted would be okay.

In general, I think it's a bad idea to drill a hole in the side of tube and try to make a pipe fitting go through it. I've done that on injector housings, but that's much smaller tube and there's almost no pressure on the joint. The big companies that do this like PM have special molded bulkheads that seal well against the tube. There are still lots of problems...

It's better to make a box under the tube and then run your plumbing through the box, where you have nice flat surfaces to put a bulkhead or glue in a PVC fitting with weldon #40. Then you just run the plumbing up through the box into the tube.

[::pete::]

I have drilled the tube through the side and insert a uniseal (http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/8600/cid/2009) there are no problems and no leaks at all. This is what you see in the picture also.

[dwdenny]

Pete that is what I was noticing. Seems to be a fairly easy to build skimmer as well. As noted above though I would like to make some changes so that I can upgarde to a bigger tank and not have to buy or make another skimmer unless I want to of course. Is there anyhting that you would change. I was personally thing of a NW instead of a standard pump without the vortex looking inlet there. I am not sure though. Pete what do you think. We know what Matt thinks alread and I do agree with him on some things. But this is a small reef tank 60 gallons total with sump.

These are the changes that I would like to make:

Reaction chamber from 6"ODX12"H to 6"ODX20"H
Collection Cup 6"ODX5"H to 6"ODX7"H
Foam Riser tube 2.5"ODX5" not sure if I need to change this?

I was thinking that I would need about a 1000gph pump to run it if I go straight as it is. Just not sure about what and how to change for a NW design.

Thanks

[::pete::]

NW?

I dont see any problem with making it bigger for the possibility of a bigger tank later. I honestly dont get the whole "rated for" deal anyway. If a skimmer is skimming then its working yes? A small skimmer on a big tank is better than no skimmer.

That picture above is a very simple design taht would be easy to duplicate and I would just leave the riser tube as is even with the changes.

[Ed]

NW = Needle Wheel ;)

[::pete::]

DOH !!!!

Thanks Ed

[don-n-sa]

I bought that same skimmer a few years back and I ran it on my 100g...it worked great!

[dwdenny]

thanks for the comments I think that I can build it for about $80 in parts not including the pump of course. Pete thanks for the feedback. I will build as is with the changes that I want to make little taller and larger collection cup as well as a gate valve to better control water level. Once again thanks for everyones input.

[matt]

That uniseal looks like a useful thing. For my own stuff, I'd still avoid drilling the main tube, but to each his own!

[dwdenny]

I understand where you are coming from Matt. I am still thinking about how to do this skimmer as well. It will be in sump so if it leaks a little it wont be that bad. lol

[brewercm]

I would think the Sedra 5000 NW pump would work fine on that setup and be plenty of pump and reaction chamber for any tank up to a 180 or so. I'm running the ASM G3 with the sedra 5000 that has a reaction chamber that is approximately 6.5 inches by 18 tall. The rating from the company is 250, probably better for a 180 or smaller, but still much higher quality than any other skimmer I had rated for 250.

I can't speak on a bekett because I've never owned one myself. The only down side I see to those are the pumps required to run them.

[dwdenny]

The original design is not setup for a NW pump but I an not sure if a NW will have enough power to push the vortex design. What do you all think?

[brewercm]

I dont' see why it wouldn't work, the vortex design is strictly an open flow with the only real restriction being in the venturi. The biggest difference in a regular venturi and the NW design is where the air is injected (before wheel, after wheel) and how it's chopped up. In my experience with both I prefer the NW over the standard venturi any day of the week. The bubbles that are created are just much more fine in the NW. The closest I even came to creating that with a venturi was was by forcing an air water mixture through the venturi rather than sucking the air in at the venturi. I did this by brining the air in at the outlet of the pump and also including the air inlet of the venturi. This worked pretty decent but I still got much more foam out of the NW.

If you are afraid that the Sedra 5000 wouldn't be enough you can move up to the 9000, that would definately get the job done.

OK, that was a long answer to your question.

[matt]

I'm really interested in building a NW skimmer for a 60 gallon tank, but I know very little about how they actually work, unless it's just as simple as the pump/NW set up circulating water throughout the tube with an air inlet, and another pump pushing water through the tube. Is that right, or does the sedra pump do both? I really need to have a look at a euroreef. Anyhow, I guess the sedra pump with the NW is what I need to get for this first. Where can I get the pump with the NW, and about how much does it cost? (Sorry for the brief hijack)

[dwdenny]

No problem the cheapest I found it was at www.asmskimmer.com for the 5000 it is like $99.00 I think. But I am thinking that you need a venturi as well not sure though. If you do they ar like $12.00 extra. I will be a guine pig if you need one. lol

[brewercm]

You can buy the pump and other parts line the uniseals from this site.

www.asmskimmer.com

They now have two styles of skimmers available, one is the original which just has a tube off the side that the water exits through and you adjust the water height inside the reaction chamber from the height. On this type the pump pulls water in from the sump and into the skimmer, there is very littel pressure in this system which is the need for less pump than a beckett.
The new versions work the same basic way but are called recirculation models. The major difference on these is they have a direct feed into the skimmer from the tank and then the pumps input and outputs are both from the reaction chamber area. These have been designed where they can feed back into a sump but be run external on some models.

Just noticed the post before. They do sell the the venturi seperate, but the sedras they sell I believe are setup as a kit with the needle wheel, venturi, and air hose. May want to check with them for sure though.

[matt]

Champion's got 'em a little cheaper, and the ocean runner as well. Anyone know which to use? I'll probably build this in the next month or so. You could try it out on your set up, (although you really should build one yourself if you have the interest) because it'll be months before I set up my aquarium, get it plumbed, build the kalk reactor, sump, refugium, get the electrical outlets I need installed, run the top off hose under the house from the bathroom, etc... all for 2 fish and an anemone!

[dwdenny]

LOL. Yeah I am going to be building my own. I was just kidding. It will be a while here as well. I still need to build the sump, install the T5 4X39w retro in to the half way finished canopy :roll Finish the 95% complete stand. :blink figure out some type of ATO system(as this a rent place can't just tear down walls. :( but that is another thread. :) Drill the tank for the overflow still looking into a closed loop but not sure on a 40g breeder tank and what ever else I plan to do as well. So you can see that we are in the same boat here matt. Also champions are not the needle wheel pumps just the regular pumps.

[matt]

If you search "needle wheel" on the champion site, you'll find them. They're not listed in the regular pump section.

[dwdenny]

Wow thanks for the heads up. Comparing pumps not sure if you can or not the Oceanruner is 900gph at 65w while the sedra 5000 is 500gph at 50w. I think I might use the oceanrunner.

[::pete::]

I understand where you are coming from Matt. I am still thinking about how to do this skimmer as well. It will be in sump so if it leaks a little it wont be that bad. lol

They dont leak ... come take a look. I have them in 1/8" wall extruded tube as well as in the bottom of a 55gal drum that is always full of water.

[matt]

Okay, so with the recirculating skimmers, you use the sedra or ocean runner pump only for making foam, and the skimmer is gravity fed, correct?. Then you adjust contact time by slowing down the gravity feed? How do you adjust water volume in the skimmer? Is there a valve on the output to create some pressure to raise the level? Or is it strictly by sump water level?

[dwdenny]

Most incorporate a gate valve mod like the one on www.asmskimmer.com look under mods and you will find it. The rest is correct. I have attached a reciruclating skimmer.

[matt]

Thanks, this photo clears up alot. Why is the pump output so close to the input? I would think ideally you'd have the pump input up high, output down low, so the recirculating flow is down/up, like a reverse flow reactor. This way it's countercurrent with the flow through the skimmer. Maybe it's like this because that's the water level; everything above that is foam. And I suppose that the recirc flow direction doesn't make that much difference.

Anyhow, I have a much clearer idea how I want to make one now. Thanks!

[dwdenny]

I am not sure why it is not higher other then the reason you just stated. I was thinking of making the one I am going to build a recirc as well but not sure yet. Is a reciculating skimmer better then a standard NW skimmer?

[jim1000]

Matt, I have built this same skimmer with several different dem., works very well with a 900-1000 gph pump. to go to a nw pump you lose about 25-30% of flow but get much finer bubbles in the system. If you need, I have all the diagrams and instruction for setup for this skimmer, just pm me and will email to you.
Jim1000

[dwdenny]

what thickness would be best? I was thinking 3/16" and should I use cast or extruded or does it really matter.

[brewercm]

I wouldn't think it would matter on extruded or cast since there is not pressure inside like in a pressure pump fed beckett.
Also you can get the sedra 9000 which is 900gph, but honestly I'm not sure of the watts it's using. I guess I'm also a little biased since I've seen the sedra in action but have not been able to see the ocean runner in action yet.

[captexas]

Euroreef has had the recirculating skimmers out for awhile and for their most recent models they changed not only the brand of pump but also played with the placement of them. I haven't been on there in awhile, but on RC in the equiment forum, there are threads for owners of ER and for ASM skimmers with various mods discussed.

Matt - on the recirculating skimmers you can gravity feed or pump from your sump. The RC skimmers offer much more in making adjustments. You can adjust the water flow going into the skimmer body with valves or by pump size, adjust water level in the body by adjusting the output, and adjusting the air input into the recirculation pumps with air valves similar to the ones you use on your calcium reactors. I've got a ER 12-2 RC skimmer I still need to get plumbed into my 240 someday!

[matt]

I wouldn't think it would matter on extruded or cast since there is not pressure inside like in a pressure pump fed beckett.


Unfortunately, this is not true. If you have water inside the tube which is at a higher level than the water around it in the sump, there's pressure inside the tube. The amount of pressure is entirely dependent on the volume of water and height. So in a big beckett skimmer with 5 gallons+ in the tube, the pressure at the bottom of the tube is much higher than in a smaller skimmer, but it has nothing to do with the pump you use to run the skimmer.

I'll build mine out of 6" cast tube, 1/4" wall. I'll use 3/8" cast for the flanges and box. Probably extruded tube would work fine, maybe Euro reef uses it for some of their skimmers, but I don't think I've ever seen 6" extruded tube. I'm sure it's available. I was checking out the price of 10" cast tube for a big skimmer; over $100 ft. Looks like I'll have to find another source for that.

[dwdenny]

yeah I would at least look. lol I foud the 6"OD at usplastics.com for $9 somthing a foot and the cast was like $22.95 that is a huge difference but a much better product. The old ES euroreef skimmers where extruded acrylic the new CS ones are cast.

[brewercm]

The ASM versions are also extruded, part of the cost difference.

[dwdenny]

that is what I was thinking but was not sure. I know that the ES series from euroreef where extruded. I think I will be making it a recirculating skimmer as well with a gate valve to control the level. I will feeding it through a 3/4" bulkhead with internal surface skimmer to collect all the nasties that are always on the surface.

[brewercm]

Can you show pics of the process and finished products?

[dwdenny]

I will but probably wont start until Jan. with christmas and all low on funds. I fingure it is going to cost ma about $100 or so without the pump.

[dwdenny]

So how much do you run through a recirculating skimmer. I was researching and seems like most are running 2X tank turnover per hour. I was going to put a 3/4" bulkhead with a gate valve so that should be able to control the flow.