Cyano again or still

[texasranchers]

I've done the chemi clean x 2 + wc, nothing happened(4 days)
waited a week
Did chemi clean X 2 + wc again(4 days)

Next month repeated above steps.

Had my water tested at the LFS and we came up with the same numbers:

NO3 less then 5.0 ppm
NO2 0.0 ppm
pH 8.2 ppm (raised to 8.3)
NH3/NH4 less then .50
Salinty 28 (raised to 31)
Specific Gravity 1.020 (raised to 1.023)

Lighting:
2 x 175 MH
2 x 110 VHO

Inside the tank:
2 x 1200 MJ PHs
1 x 900 MJ PH
1 x 1200 MJ PH on HOB PS(just reinstalled)
1" PVC return
1 single chamber Regent HOB filter from Wal Mart(desperate) Just added today

Outside the tank:
Overflow box with 1 "(?) u tube
Only 1 sump (Slim Line150) about 25 gl water
1 x 1200 MJph for sump PS
1 x mag drive return pump 500 gph

Total gph:
1200's produce about 295 gph x 4 = 895
900's produce about 230 gph x 1 = 230
Regent 1 chamber about 250 gph = 250
Return mag drive pump 500 gph = 500 Total overall: 1865 gph

wc once a month except when I treat with chemi clean

QUESTION:

The recipee for cooking rock is going around for algea laden rock. Will it work on cyano? TR

[matt]

I'd be a little cautious with your flow calculations, for example if you're using a mag 5 as a return pump, and there's any sort of head pressure, you're definitely not pushing 500GPH through it. And mj1200, while they're good powerheads, cannot really push 300gph for very long, they get dirty and slow down quickly.

How big is your tank, and what's living in it? Since you're registering ammonia, something's up with your bioload, and it's the nutrient production that's fueling the algae. You've got to lower your bioload and increase your nutrient export, best done with a GOOD skimmer (hint, a remora or bakpak is not really good enough unless your tank is very small, maybe 30gal or less IMO) and a refguium in which you can grow macroalgae which will hopefully use up some of the nutrients that your cyano is now enjoying. BTW, "nutrients" in this case refers to pollutants; waste products of fish and invertebrates, die off from any liverock, etc...

[texasranchers]

[quote="matt"]I'd be a little cautious with your flow calculations, for example if you're using a mag 5 as a return pump, and there's any sort of head pressure, you're definitely not pushing 500GPH through it.

REPLY: Going by box/package

And mj1200, while they're good powerheads, cannot really push 300gph for very long, they get dirty and slow down quickly.

REPLY: I clean them out frequently especially with all this trouble. But I do remember the rep. telling me that if I used them with a PS that my volume would drop to about 110 gph.

How big is your tank, and what's living in it?

REPLY: OOPs blush 55 gal, Maroon clown since Nov 2001
Yellow tail damsel probably 18 months, Lawnmower blenny several months maybe a year.
Cleanup crew would be snails, emeralds(2), red leg scarlet hermits, Inverts: asteria stars (many), 3 anemones, plate coral skeleton with new small ones growing on it, flower anemone, mushrooms, button polyps, ricordea, green stars, a half moon shaped thing that is beautiful when it feeds and sways. Other soft corals I moved to my seahorse tank.

Since you're registering ammonia, something's up with your bioload, and it's the nutrient production that's fueling the algae. You've got to lower your bioload and increase your nutrient export, best done with a GOOD skimmer (hint, a remora or bakpak is not really good enough unless your tank is very small, maybe 30gal or less IMO) and a refguium in which you can grow macroalgae which will hopefully use up some of the nutrients that your cyano is now enjoying. BTW, "nutrients" in this case refers to pollutants; waste products of fish and invertebrates, die off from any liverock, etc...[quote]

REPLY: Dead Rock I think. But I have been battling with this for so long that I don't know what I need to do anymore.

[Shark_Bait]

How about phosphates? For me that's my big cyano cause. Agreed that there is some nutrients that are fueling the growth. In my experience when my phosphates (po4) start to climb so does the cyano.

[texasranchers]

Matt and Rob, thank you so much for your input. I will try whatever you suggest. TR

[Ed]

Overfeeding is also a possible cause of excess nutrients and phosphates. Many of us are guilty of overfeeding at times. Are you adding any coral foods? How often are you feeding the anemones? The fish?

[NaCl_H2O]

Another Q, how much LR do you have in the tank? If I read the above correct, you just reinstaled the skimmer and just added a HOB filter - so you had nothing providing nutrint export before? For how long?

Also, once/month water changes aren't enough. At least 15-25% every two weeks, maybe weekly for awhile depending on how long you were without any export.

[matt]

I'd stop using the chemi-clean, it's really just masking your problem. I'd try increasing the flow by putting 4 mj1200s in the tank, and consider something like a mag 9 for your return, or much better, a good external like an iwaki or pan world that's conservatively rated at 750gph or so; you won't believe the difference. You can also rearrange the rock so that there's really good flow behind and all around the rock. This can really help. Sounds like you're not overloaded with fish, but you might try to get some really good live sand loaded with worms. This will really help to keep your sand clean. I hope your hermits are very small, as they can be pretty destructive little critters and will eat beneficial sand fauna.

If possible, try turning as much of your sump as possible into a refugium; really it's mostly a matter of getting some light on it and growing caulerpa to suck up the phosphate and nitrates.

I would suggest doing as many of those steps as possible and wait out the ammonia issue until there's no detectable ammonia or nitrate. Most nitrate kits are pretty inaccurate, so any that shows up should be considered too much. In the meantime, just keep siphoning out the cyano whenever it builds up. Oh yeah, how are you keeping up with Calcium and Alkalinity? Now would be a good time to drip some kalkwasser if you're not doing so; the high ph tends to discourage microalgae. One last thing; specific gravity of 1.023 at 80F is not saline enough for invertebrates, go for 1.025 to 1.026. I think that's about 30ppt.

Good luck!

[texasranchers]

Well and WOW. We had a PS in the sump but we added a second PS inside tank to help with this massive amount of floating, sticking to rock stuff in our tank. We have never been without a PS.

Rock? 200lbs + Some of it is our original rock, Nov., 2000
Invert feedings? Yes DT's, Koral Vit, and Fritz Invertebrate Banquet.
Anemones? Yes, (same as above plus)Direct turkey baster feed with frozen shrimp.

So, back to my original question, do you not think the 'cooking' rock recipee would work in my case? I am ready to tear down tank.

Thanks for all the suggestions. The only fish I want to keep at this time is my Clown. TR

[demodiki]

I think there is a good chance that this is a phosphate issue (along with nutrient export). What kind of water are you using? Top offs? Make sure you are testing these for phosphates. Have you used phosphate sponges? Have you considered a phosphate reactor?

I would also cut down on feeding...especially the inverts. It takes a lot of work to get through bad cyano but it is by no means impossible. I just got through one myself. Manually remove the cyano everyday and do 20% water changes weekly.

[NaCl_H2O]

You mentioned a "Seahorse Tank" - having any problems with it? If not, your water source probably isn't the problem.

I wouldn't "Cook LR" - seems that would only create "Dead Rock", which would just introduce more nutrients back into the tank.

Are you sure what you have is cyanobacteria? When I get cyano it is mostly on the sand/substrate and not on the rock. If on the rock, it easy is washed off with a turkey baster. Could be some other type of algae - can you describe or post a pic?

[gjuarez]

I wouldnt cook all of the rock, but I would cook a little of it, *(if nothing else works) but do it slowly and a couple of pieces at a time. Cooking the rock will help break down the stored phosphates and it will also keep it detritrus free. Cyano loves dead spots where there is low flow. You might want to consider adding perhaps another powerhead with an indirect flow at the sand bed or wherever the cyano is growing. Do weekly water changes until the cyano is gone, and once it is gone do it for a couple of weeks more. Good luck with it and keep us posted.
Jerry

[matt]

200 lbs of live rock in a 55? Sounds like you need to have a sale. I'm amazed you can fit all that rock in there and still have room for water! Live rock will certainly help with filtration, but only up to a point. Since there are all sorts of thngs living on the rock, it also presents a bioload to the tank. Plus, with that much rock, there's almost no way you can get decent flow in and around it all. Try taking half of it out, and I'm assuming you have a sand bed, get the rock up off the sand and off the back glass so you can get some real flow in there. You can use PVC tubing, cut into rings, to get most of the rock out of the sand, then just bury the PVC in sand.

If you have no sand bed, which some people like but not me, you can have more rock in there, but you're more dependent on aggressive skimming and macroalgae for filtration.

edit: oh yeah, I almost forgot. "Cooking" the live rock, I assume in order to sterilize it, is a really bad idea. You'll essentially be introducing huge amounts of dead stuff into your system. Forget you ever heard this extremely questionable idea, no matter where it came from. You pay $5/lb for rock that has marine life on it and then kill all the life? Come on....

[JimD]

Matt, "cooking" the rock is a term used to re-cure old rock and allow any embeded detritus to be evacuated/leached. Not literaly putting it in the oven. lol. Thats what I thought also when I first saw the word "cooked". Check out this link.
www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=437342

[texasranchers]

OOOH nooo. My hubby, the chef, would hurt me if I put rocks in his oven.

RO DI water

Seahorse tank is great. TR

[matt]

Thanks Jim, got it. Sorry about the rant!

[NaCl_H2O]

:blush Yea, I thought "cooking" involved an oven too :blush

[gjuarez]

Sorry for not specifying the cooking the live rock concept Matt. LOL Like JIm, when i first read about it I though people were boiling or baking the rock. THis concept has been around for a while. Cooking the rock is like recharging the rock. It becomes bacteria oriented again by starving the algae to death that otherwhise inhibits bacteria from growing more densely. The way it is done is to take the algae's main source of nutrition away, which are phosphates and light. THe algae dies including the coraline but you do get detritus free rock and an awesome biological filter.

[texasranchers]

I just caught up to last night's posts. Speaking of water, I did not have anything like this until I started using my RO DI unit. We set it up in Jan 2005, started having this trouble in June or July. BUT the main seahorse tank and the juvy seahorse tank uses the same water.
Our fresh planted/community tank and the Oranda tank uses tap water.

Well anyway, let me make notes on what was suggested and get started. Hope to have it fixed or sold by Christmas. Can't stand this awful mess. Trying to get pics to show you. It is thick enough I can cut it with scissors, won't 'blow' off, can't 'scrubbed' some pieces of rock that holds some of the remaining corals. TR

[gjuarez]

I wouldnt sell it man. Just keep asking questions and fighting it. You will miss it a week later if you sell it.