Organic phosphate kit MICHAEL PALETTA SPECIFIED IN TALK.

[TexasTodd]

Hi everyone. This is the specific kit from Deltec that Mike mentioned.

You still need your Salifert double dose kit for non-organic phosphate, but, also truly need this one too.

If you are keeping sps corals, I'd see this as a must, especially if you are using any type of phosphate binder like Rowaphos, Phosban, etc. I can tell you from personal experience that these compounds can be very dangerous without ALL test kits.

Below is special group pricing Deltec has extended to us in an e-mail I received today.

1-4 kits $89.99/kit
5-9 kits $74.99/kit
10+ kits $64.99/kit

I'd like to CLOSE this thread on the MONDAY AFTER THANKS GIVING.

Thanks all.

Todd

[TexasTodd]

I'll start is off.

ONE kit for Todd.

TT

[::pete::]

Ok ... what snake oil is this? ;)

[falcondob]

How can I argue with Mike Paletta AND Todd? I am in for one.
John

[MikeyBoy]

Im in too...................MP

[NaCl_H2O]

The price is kinda steep :o How many tests per kit?

What's your's and Mike's profit per kit sold ;) ;)

[TexasTodd]

I think it does a 100 tests.

OH, FORGOT TO ADD, YOU CAN THEN ORDER A REFILL KIT FOR $40 FOR ANOTHER 100 TESTS.

Mike and I make nothing.

Pete, this is the only kit I've heard about that measures ORGANIC phosphate, all the others for tanks measure INORGANIC PO4. There's no way I'd use a phosphate binder ever again without this test. I lost probably $700 in corals at the "end" of the last round with this stuff.

Todd

[Richard]

What happened that caused your losses? Details?

I'm thinking about a kit. It might be a nice toy but I'm not sure if it's worth it for me since I don't use phosphate binders and I don't know if it would change anything that I do.

Refresh my memory...why is this kit necessary to use phosban/rowaphos?

[TexasTodd]

Hey Richard, I want to do some tests on your water anyway, as I'm considering some of your methods too. But want to "look" at your water first if that is "o.k.".

The phosphate binders can make your corals grow like freaking weeds! But, there are many theroys on the problems people run in to. Either the "dust" that comes off them and settles, or, the phosphate levels actually get TOO LOW for sps corals, or possibly people don't know for sure.

These binders also tend to "suck" alkalinatiy (spelling?) out of the water. Many believe this the root problem, but I know for sure that wasn't a problem in mine because I watch it like a hawk.

What happens is you'll start to see recession around the BASE of some sps. Not all. They will STN from the base up fairly fast, but not like RTN. They are almost impossible to save.

I have a Lamott PO4 test kit which is supposed to be one of the best, but it measures the in-organic po4. It's always read "zero" on my systems. But there HAS to be phosphate there if you're growing things. :)

This kit from Deltec detects and measures very low levels of organic phosphate...po4.

Personally I believe I was getting actually too low on phosphate for the sps to live. I could not grow macro algae either.

But, from what I've read, the "ideal" phosphate level is between--not enought to grow macro and zero. And, it's a fairly narrow range. I think this kit may be the tool to manage the use of binders properly.

Also, he uses a new one from Leng Sy --Eco Systems that doesn't seem to have as much "dust" and Mike said in rinses clean very quickly-----combining these two ---the low dust and a good test kit-----helps with two of the four possible avenues for problems.

We'll see.

Todd

[NaCl_H2O]

Well, I started running PhosBan this week - nothing noticeably better or worse so far. This stuff definately has a high "dust" level and I put a very fine filter sock on the exit hose.

This stuff is "ferric oxide hydroxide" which doesn't sound like a "good" think to have settling on your corals :o

Todd, how long was it runing in yours before you had problems, and where did you have the reactor placed?

[TexasTodd]

Steve you MUST rinse the stuf for a long time with RO/DI until it runs mostly clear before you put it on/in your tank.

I had mine pull from my refugium and dump to the outflow area. Should have had it dump back to the ref to help even more settle out.

I used it for about 6 months without problems. I started to use it a little heavier---like the amount on the directions, and started having the classic problems.

I would NEVER put this stuff on my system again with out both test kits unless I was using a very little amount. Like 60ml for 300 gallons or more.

You also must ramp up starting with just a little and gradually up from there in weekly increments.

All these products say to change it out every three months. Many on RC decided to use less and change monthly with the thought that by three months the stuff is exhausted and by changing out the full directions volume at three months you are shocking the crap out of your system. MOST side affects were noticed about 6 weeks AFTER one of these media change outs.

To this affect, I personally think you need to feed a good amount while using it. Michael is using the FULL label direction amount and changing every three months also. But he feeds quite a bit. I actually now believe I've been an "under feeder" which sounds nuts since it's the single most over done task in reefkeeping. But I'd been wondering and when Mike saw my system live, and some of his own corals, he said it looked like the system was not getting enough nutrients.

Michael's take on this seems a little different than most I've looked at. People mention over and over again to have super low nutrients in reef tanks. I could be off, by my tank from talking and listening to mike is: Feed well, but have the products and methods to GET THE WASTE OUT.

My thoughts looking back are that the more I used the product and saw amazing growth, the less I fed hoping to enhance the process even more.

Anyway, this stuff is a double edged sword. BE CAREFUL, START LOW, RINSE IT, AND TEST, TEST, TEST. I would use both the double dose Salefert and this Deltec along with a good Alk test 2x per week minimum for the first 3 months. Then probably 1x a week.

I e-mailed Mike to get what he thinks is the "IDEAL" range for your Organic PO4.

He said " You want to keep PO4 at 0.015-0.025 ppm. That seems to be the range that works best. I use the Ecophos at a lower amount at first and then over a month or two get up to the recommended amount".


HOW COOL IS IT TO GET REALLY GOOD ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FROM SPEAKERS WE'VE HAD IN! It is definately at a different "level" than from people who have no idea who you are. :D

Michael, add anything here I may have missed! I know you've been on the site for follow up lately. We really appreciate it!

Todd

[Richard]

Couple of questions Todd

I'm not clear on what you think caused your losses with using GFO. Are you thinking you reached true zero on phosphate? That would be very bad indeed since phosphate is an essential nutrient. I use seachem Po4 test kit and it reads zero but I know it isn't really zero. That's just because the PO4 kits we use (seachem, salifert, lamonte) are not very accurate in the low range that we care about. That's why I always recommend that people test for phosphate because if it is easily detectable with these types of kits then it's too high really. I do agree with you (palleta) concerning low nutrients though. The goal is to have low residual nutrients and not a nutrient starved tank. That's never an issue on my tank since I feed pretty heavily. Generally at least 6 to 8 cubes of food per feeding. And I generally feed that once a day but sometimes 2 or 3 times per day.

I looked at Deltec's site and they don't mention that the kit tests for organic phosphate just that it test low range PO4. Did the deltec people verify what this kit is testing? It is the D-D phosphate kit I'm looking at. Is this the same one your talking about about?

I would actually be more interested in the kit if it can accurately test orthophosphate in the range we care about, <.03 ppm.

[TexasTodd]

Hmm, not sure on exact testing. GARY will be able to go in to more detail.

Gary was there when we discussed it! Thank God!

It uses acid to break down the blah, blah, blah in order to test. :wacko

Only one test kit on Deltec site. ;)

Todd

[NaCl_H2O]

Ok, so you scared the crap out of me ... took out the reactors and washed the PhosBan really good in RO/DI and decreased the amount in the reactor ... a bunch went down the sink when I was washing it ;)

I have three reactors in the sump: Pump - (1)PhosBan - (2)PhosBan - (3)Richard's Pelletized Carbon - fine mesh filter sock - drain back into sump

PhosBan reactors are about half full (when not tumbling), I have a ~500g system.

Guess I'm in for a Phosphate test kit!

[MikeyBoy]

Wow, this is getting complex................and a bit confusing.
I have ran Phosban or Rowaphos since I have had my system up and running.
Always through a fluidized bed with pump........
Who knows if it is causing me troubles.

[Richard]

It uses acid to break down the blah, blah, blah in order to test.


Well Hell! You should have said it could break down the blah, blah, blah to begin with ;)

Put me down for one :) .

[NaCl_H2O]

Well Hell! You should have said it could break down the blah, blah, blah to begin with ;)

Put me down for one :) .
ROFLMAO :lol :lol :lol That's Funny!

So, why is this hobby so expensive?

[TexasTodd]

It's a VERY GOOD thing I scared the **** out of you. You were headed for a serious crash.

I'd start at NO MORE than 1/4 the amount on the directions for your system size.

I do accept frags for saving! :angel :innocent

Just kidding, but that's why I posted that way, I had an idea you may not have rinsed and started with too much.

Glad you were able to fix quickly.

Todd

[TexasTodd]

You guys ALL crack me up!

Steve, why do you think I'm going through the work to line up the group order? I freaked out at the standard 1-4 price too!!!!

:)

Todd

[TexasTodd]

UP TO SIX NOW. WE NEED JUST 4 MORE. CONTACT OTHERS YOU KNOW PLEASE TO LOOK AT THREAD. I'M NOT GOING TO RUN THIS ONE FOREVER LIKE SOME OF THESS GROUP BUY DEALS. :0

Gary, GET YOUR ORDER IN! LARRY?

Todd

[falcondob]

Todd, I am a little confused (what are the odds of that?). How does the amount of Phosban in the reactor affect things, shouldn't it be amount of water through the reactor? I am getting ready to bring my Phosban reactor back online and I feel like I need to notify the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. :unsure :cry :o :unsure

[Richard]

I think I will withdraw my commitment for a kit for now. I'll have to think about it a little bit more to decide if it's worth the money to me since I don't use GFO on my tanks.

Some things to consider....

Deltec's response to my questions (great response time from them)....
"The test measures orthophosphate, or inorganic phosphate. If you are using
Rowaphos, do not use the salifert test kit, as it is incapable of measuring
down to the level required to determined when the Rowaphos has expired."

Randy Holmes Farley's response to my questions...
"Many organics, both those that contain phosphate and those that do not, will bind to GFO.

FWIW, I've never found enough reason to want to measure organic phosphate. Since it includes everything up to and including suspended bacteria and phytoplankton, I wouldn't be sure how to interpret the results."

[NaCl_H2O]

:unsure :huh :blink

[MikeyBoy]

I will add a third to that :wacko :huh :blink :unsure



plus one

[TexasTodd]

Good information Richard.

Here's why I'm getting one.
1. Use of the GFOs have increased growth big time in all tanks I've seen it used on.
2. Michael has given his tested and tried "RANGE" of levels off this kit that both help his growth AND has not seen the coral loss issues.
3. In my own system I was blown away by the growth difference when using GFOs without changing anything else.
4. Heavy nutrients slows sps growth. Great articles on this in Coral tm mag. But, low nutrients is not so good for the colors. So, my reasoning is, it I can use these products safely (by testing and trying Mike's range), it is yet anothe way to pull more of the food out that I'm putting in.

Richard, as mentioned, I'd really like to test the water from your carbon DCB :) anyway, so you shouldn't need to buy a kit at first. ;)

SOMETHING that plays in to Richard's response from Deltec is: as mentioned before, people were unsure if, when going 3 months between changing the media, if they were "SHOCKING" their system because the media was fully expired and then they put in a completely new batch. This is why some went to less used and changing out every 30 days. I personally think it had to do with PO4 getting too low as I tried the 30 day deal and was feeding super light and this is when I ran in to the problems.

Falcondob, I believe it has to do with surface area increased with more media.

Todd

Todd

[GaryP]

OK, let me jump in here.

The kit as I understand it digests meta (organic) phosphate with acid and converts it into ortho phosphate which is then analyzed and gives you a value for total phosphate. You have to run a seperate kit for ortho phosphate and subtract the value for it from the Deltec value in order to get the meta phosphate value. Here are the issues with phosphate as I understand them.

1. The obvious - to much phosphate leads to algal blooms
2. The majority of phosphate exists in the meta form.
3. Ortho phosphate is more readily utilized then meta and as a result it will reside for a very short time in the water. This is why most people usually get a "zero" value with the normal test kits. They may have a large amount of phosphate in their water in the form of meta, but will show zero as ortho.
4. The other problem with phosphate is that it acts as an inhibitor for calcification in corals. When I worked in the water treatment industry we added meta phosphates (phosphate amine esters and phosphonates) to the water to prevent calcium carbonate and calcium sulfate scaling.
5. While having high phosphates is bad, so is having low phosphates. All organism utilize phosphates to produce Adenosine Tri Phosphate (ATP). ATP is what all animals and plants use to store energy on the cellular level.
6. Calcium carbonate (LR and LS) acts as a reservoir for phosphate. Ortho phosphate is held there, bound as calcium phosphate. There is some turn over in these reservoirs as bacterial produced organic acids acidize the calcium phosphate and it leaches out of the LS and LR. New LS and LR eventually becomes coated with a layer of phosphate.
7. Phosphate is constantly being introduced in the aquarium in the form of food. Most foods contain up to 1% phosphate based on their dry weight.
8. Fish and other critters excrete the excess phosphate that they do not need for growth and maintenance as both ortho and meta phosphate. This is the primary source of phosphate in the water.

[NaCl_H2O]

As always Gary, thank you for that information :wacko
Seriously, you are wealth of information when it comes to chemistry in the Aquarium. I think we are all very new to this topic of Phosphates and how to measure & control at desired levels. As everyone else, I have measured "Zero" and knew that was wrong but had no method to do anything but shrug my sholders.

Looking forward to getting this new test kit so I can measure and then shrug my shoulders ;)

[TexasTodd]

THANK YOU GARY!

FINALLY! Where the heck were you! :)

So, with Gary's input, I still feel good using this test kit and "Michael's range" that has worked for him. But, I'll SLOWLY work up to the full amount.

WE NEED 10 ORDERED! E-mail anyone you think might want one please.

Todd

[GaryP]

Todd,

I'd like to take a good look at yours when you get it. I see a DIY project in my future. I feel a "mad scientist" thing coming over me.

You may have posted it earlier, but what is Mike's range? Is that in the form of total or only meta?

P.S. Sorry for my absence. I didn't think it was a situation where rampant phosphate molecules were going to eat the MAAST collective. :)

[TexasTodd]

Oh, those PO4 particles were out and MEAN! Except at my house where I decided to starve my stuff. :)

Mike's reading is just off the test kit from deltec I believe, but will make sure he isn't deducting.

You know more about the kit and how it works than Deltec! ;)

Range from Michael is.." 0.015-0.025 ppm".

TT

[GaryP]

What I am wondering is this, how do you prevent over binding phosphate so that your levels are to low? Its not like a fluidized bed is a precision piece of equipment that can be dialed in and calibrated. Are we looking at phosphate additives to prevent this? I know this sounds a little rediculous, but how is it different than peeing in the aquarium or adding vodka? If you change out the phosphate binder you are going to get different levels of phosphate removal efficiency based on the age of the binder. Its never going to be in a steady state equilibrium. So what do you do, try to average out the range so that new binder gives you values at the bottom of Mike's range and the old, almost exhausted binder is at the top of the range.

I gues the question really comes down to this. Now that you have all this additional phosphate data, how do you use it to better manage water quality? Is this a matter of generating data for data's sake or is there some utility here that I am missing?

In the past, before I was aware of this type of kit, I had always preached that the best phosphate test kit available was a Mod 1 Mark 1 eyeball. Regardless of how many zero values you got from your ortho test kit, the best indicator of excess phosphates is nuisance algae growth. I suppose the new question is whether you can have excess phosphates even if you are not having algae problems. For the sake of this discussion I will define a phosphate problem as a concentration sufficient to inhibit coral growth. Is there a new paradigm here and are we raising the bar on the requirements for phosphate control?

[NaCl_H2O]

Is there a new paradigm here and are we raising the bar on the requirements for phosphate control?
Like I said, now I wil be able to measure Phosphate and THEN shrug my shoulders ;)

Gary, I have two Phosban reactors hooked up in series (large water volume) - I was thinking I can stagger them and change out the binder in one every other 30-90 days based on measurements, maybe this would tend to keep things a bit more stable?

[GaryP]

Range from Michael is.." 0.015-0.025 ppm".

My guess this is based on values from natural sea water and not any testing or evaluation conducted by Deltec. That's a pretty narrow range to nail without being able to control the efficiency of a fluidized bed. I suppose the only way to do that would be put a timer on the feed pump or vary the amount of binder in the reactor.

I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic here. I'm just trying to figure out how this is going to work. I can see myself getting a lot of PMs in the next few months saying "my phosphate reading with the Deltec kit is .010, what do I do? Am I starving my corals?" Right now, my best response would be to feed more.

There's another issue here. What happens to the phosphate in the particulate food that is ingested by corals? Do they need .015-.025 in addition to the phosphate in the food? The more I think about this, the more it makes my head hurt. Todd, its all your fault.

[GaryP]

Gary, I have two Phosban reactors hooked up in series (large water volume) - I was thinking I can stagger them and change out the binder in one every other 30-90 days based on measurements, maybe this would tend to keep things a bit more stable?

If the goal was to scrub to zero I could see why you would want to hook them up in series. The first would take out the bulk of PO4, and the second would polish what was left. Having them in series would not increase the water volume, parallel would. In series, both would see exactly the same volume of water. The only difference would be the concentration of PO4 that the second one would see. Here is a little math for you:

Assume 90% removal efficiency.

Reactor one removes 90% of the PO4.
Reactor two removes 90% of the remaining PO4

Result = 90% + 9% = 99%

This occurs every time the water makes a pass through the reactors. I think you could see that even with a fairly small feed pump that you would quickly either exhaust the media, or exhaust the phosphate. If you down size the pump, then what is the purpose of running two reactors?

Just something to think about. Now you really have my head hurting.

[GaryP]

Besides Steve and Todd is anyone following any of this? Is there anyone else left out there? Should we move to a smaller room and let the rest of you talk about how big your skimmer is?

See what happens when you turn me loose and let me start talking chemistry? Sorry folks.

OK, now onto the molecular weight of kryptonite and its importance in oocyte production in mermaids and other important matters.

[MikeyBoy]

Its' always Todd's fault ;) ;) , he now has me convinced that I need to more OceanRunner 3700 pumps on my 6' tall skimmer!! :blink :blink :sick



and 2 -- 1'1/4 gate valves for the outgoing sides!!


:unsure :unsure :wacko :wacko


We shall be experimenting soon!! :blink :blink

[JimD]

This is where I get my best sleep. lol

[TexasTodd]

:) Hey MIKE! :)

You know I didn't want to be bored with so many days off!!!

Gary, I agree with everything you are saying. The range is actually what Mike has found to work well in his system I believe. I guess you regulate it with: amount of media used, how often changed out, flow through fluidized media device, and feeding.

PO4 has been the #1 topic it seems for the last 1.5 years or so. Yes you can "eye it" but I think that most tanks are still too high on PO4 ( in the skelital-spelling growth) for sps corals.

One real key will be to test our systems before we add the binders and TO START SLOWLY!

Always more to learn. I will say again everyone I know who have used these saw an increase in growth. 100% of them. But, it can be like playing with the devil!

Todd

[NaCl_H2O]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I'm just gonna go pee in my tank >_<

Better yet, let's all go pee in Todd's tank ;)

[GaryP]

Better yet, lets all drink a six pack and go pee in yours. You have a multiple six pack sized sysytem. Just think, your clams will double in size overnight. What kind of beer do your clams prefer? Mine like Shiner. They're Texas clams (Tridacna tejas).

[falcondob]

I love it! New series from Lucas Films "Chemistry Wars". Starring 3SeeP04, H2O2, Puke SkimWater, Hands SoLow, the evil Kalk Vasser, Favia the Hut, and Oh Be One Goby. (Stay tuned for "Revenge of the Salt" and "Attack of the SeaClones")

[GaryP]

Gary, I agree with everything you are saying. The range is actually what Mike has found to work well in his system I believe. I guess you regulate it with: amount of media used, how often changed out, flow through fluidized media device, and feeding.

This is a good example of the art of reef keeping making the transition to the science of reefkeeping. My Mark 1 Mod 1 Eyeball versus the Deltec kit. Can you tell I like to stir things up and get people thinking? :)

I like the idea of using two reactors in parallel with alternating change outs so to help minimize swings in skimmer efficiency and thus allow for more of a steady state situation. You could even use one pump to feed them. When I worked with fluidized beds in chemical plants we were looking for maximum efficiency, not some level of minimal through-put. That was a situation where we would use them in series. The water was being discharged to a river and when we came close to the regulatory limit we just shut them down and did a changeout. We weren't looking for just a "little bit" of efficiecy. In addition, this was a once through system, not a closed loop like we have with an aquarium. I have a feeling that what we may find is that answer will be in running your reactors on a timer. That way you will minimize the swings to that on a daily level rather then on a monthly level. Logic would seem to indicate that your max phosphate levels will occur after feeding time and have a tendency to drop off after that. So perhaps you might want to consider only running your reactors for a few hours after you normally feed.

I forsee a talk by Todd on phosphate control strategies in his future.

P.S. I'm off to the Hach website to go see what goodies they have over there that we might want to snag and bring back to the hobby. I know some of the test kits such as Seatest use reagents from Hach. Those foil pouches are a Hach trademark.

[NaCl_H2O]

Assume 90% removal efficiency ... blah, blah, blah
Okay, Okay .. they are hooked up in parallel now, one pump running both!
You happy now ;)

Amazing how many of the spare sprinkler system parts I have come in handy at times like these ;)

Where is that **** test kit :P

[GaryP]

Please allow me to muddy the water. What if you could get a test kit that runs both ortho AND meta phosphate?

http://www.hach.com/hc/search.product.details.invoker/VendorProductCode=225001/View=PRODUCT_OVERVIEW/NewLinkLabel=Phosphate%2C+total+ortho-%26frasl%3Bmeta-+PO-24/PREVIOUS_BREADCRUMB_ID=HC_SEARCH_PRODUCT224800/SESSIONID|CWpjNU16RTVOakExTWlabmRXVnpkRTVXU2c9PUEx aFVNVEV6TQ==|

[NaCl_H2O]

:unsure :huh :blink
Gee, thanks Gary!
:unsure :huh :blink
:unsure :huh :blink
:unsure :huh :blink

[LoneStar]

:zzz

[GaryP]

:zzz

Like I said, you can always stand around and see who has got the biggest skimmer if we are boring you. While you are doing that we will be watching our corals grow out of the tank.

[NaCl_H2O]

Please allow me to muddy the water.

Read this :o
http://www.hach.com/fmmimghach?/CODE%3A225001909%7C1

Gary - are you going to conduct a Chemistry lab training session, it has been a few years since I was in a chem lab :innocent

[LoneStar]

Like I said, you can always stand around and see who has got the biggest skimmer if we are boring you. While you are doing that we will be watching our corals grow out of the tank.


Huh?

[TexasTodd]

Mommy, Gary made my brain hurt!

:)

Here's Michael's reply, which, interestingly enough, also mentions the Hach! :)

"It is the reading from the Deltec kit. I think it shows .018 as the reading
after 0.00, but if you use the Hach total phosphate it shows the second
reading as .015-.025. Not sure if there is a difference though. I also try
to get a reading of 0.00 as the reading coming out of the reactor, then just
adjust the flow rate to get the level down to where i want it. Hope this
helps. Tell Gary to email me any time it is not a bother. Happy
Thanksgiving,
Mike
"

Also discusses a little on the regulating Gary.

HAPPY TURKEY DAY EVERYONE!

TT

[GaryP]

Gary - are you going to conduct a Chemistry lab training session, it has been a few years since I was in a chem lab

Its not that complicated, just cook book chemistry.

I'm going to put on my Education Chairman hat for a minute. One word of caution to the folks getting thses kits. Please go down to Home Depot and get an inexpensive pair of safety glasses. Some of these products can blind you if you get them in your eyes. Likewise, if you get them on your skin, wash it offimmediately and thoroughly. This also applies to a lot of the regular test kits too. Most contain strong acids and bases. And lets not forget goold ole Kalk. Either in the liquid or solid form its just like oven cleaner. A package of latex or nitrile gloves wouldn't be a bad thing to add to your collection of aquarium supplies too.

[GaryP]

Can you forward the whole email to me Todd? Send it my PM here. Your excerpt is a little hard to understand when taken out of context.

You can cut out the parts where you and Mike are plotting to take over the world.

[NaCl_H2O]

Can you forward the whole email to me Todd?
Mee too, but I want to see the parts where y'all are planning ...

[TexasTodd]

Sorry for the dissapointment Steve and G! That's all there was to the e-mail response...even signed "Mike" at the bottom. :)

Hmmm, the world. :blink

Now I have to get that turkey in!

Todd

[gjuarez]

I want to join but I am totally clueless on phosphates. All I know is that when I tested for mine it always said zero, but the algae let me to believe other wise and my corals didnt grow at an unbelievable rate. From what I have read on this thread, too little phosphates could be harmful to corals and too much phosphates can inhibit growth and could cause the coral too perish. Phosphate level should be kept in check especially after changing and recharging the phosphate removal media because the rapid change the new media causes could shock the corals. This is what I have understood and if its true it does make sense to me for the use of a test kit like this. In other words, the test kit will be used to regulate the use of Phosguard and phosban, and how much of it should be used to maintain appropriate levels. This is some great info guys, I think the thread should remain open after you order your kits. Results could be posted here and Gary and Todd could keep on enlighting us. I really wish Mike would visit us and the thread every once in a while.

[bigdscobra]

Well after reading all this great info I think I will just stick to the old test kit like Gary was saying the good O'l eyeball kit. There is no noticable growth in my macro and no algea blooms so the levels have to be pritty good and Iam not running a reactor. I haven't had SPS long enough to know if the growth is normal or slower will just have to wait and see.

Great topic though ;)

[NaCl_H2O]

Well, I don't spend much time on Reef Central, but browsed around today Reading about GFO Phosphate Binders. This article by Randy Holmes-Farley (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php) was very informative! Mostly alot of what Todd, Paletta, and Gary have been posting, but lots of good detail!

So Todd (or Mike!), the article concludes with:

"There are many ways to minimize the accumulation of phosphate. In my own reef, I prefer to use skimming, carbon, and macro algae growth to export phosphorus."
You have seen my system, which includes a "generous" size skimmer, and a equally "generous" refugium. I have never been able to record anything but zero with phosphate test kits, and I understand that may mean nothing. But, is it possible that my Phosphates are already controlled due to skimming and LOTS of macro growth?

I assume the answer is in the deltec (or other) test kit! Right now I feel like I am playing "Phosphate Roulette" :unsure

[TexasTodd]

Yes Steve, the test kit. ROULETTE----not if you start with about 20-25% of doseage amount.

But, to back up the roulette idea, I have sitting in my fish room a full new 1000ml container of the ECO PHOS Michael spoke of. And it's staying in the cyclinder until I get my grubby little hands on the test kit. :(

Going out on a limb, but it may be that Randy is not 100% in to sps corals. I have no idea, but my feeling is you only would look in to using the GFOs for SPS. And, you can still keep and grow them without the GFO. I was actually seeing some slow bottom up recession on some of my corals late this fall. I believe I was "reaching that lower limit" through Bare Bottom tank, heavy skimming, and super light feeding....but, my corals were loosing color big time. I want to try with the test kit and heavier feeding with the GFO this time.

Todd

[NaCl_H2O]

Todd, where did you get the ECO PHOS?

[TexasTodd]

:innocent :skeezy :ph34r




Just kidding. :) It's a newer product and Leng has NOT done a good job setting distribution up yet. Premium doesn't carry, Marine Depot doesn't carry etc for all the "biggies".

I found it at www.aquatichouse.com I'm trying to get Marine Depot to carry it AND become a MAAST sponsor. The bad part is where I purchased it is charging ABOVE manufacture's suggested list price! $63 for 1000ml. If we can get another place to stock I hope it comes down to around $50.

Todd

[LoneStar]

Wheelin' and Dealin' :)

Nice Todd!!

[tgray]

. Either in the liquid or solid form its just like oven cleaner.

wow, first pee, then vodka, now easy off oven cleaner in my tank!!! :blink

[TexasTodd]

OK, not at the "10" I was hoping for, but a decent order anyway.

I'll contact Deltec to see if we can all PayPal him directly or what he wants.

Todd

[TexasTodd]

Final Count?

I count FIVE (5). Richard is holding off for now.
Me, Brian, Mike, Steve, John.

Look/sound good?

Todd

[NaCl_H2O]

Todd, how about you buy one and come test all our tanks ;)

Okay, I guess I'm in ... BTW, I don't have a PayPal acct.

[TexasTodd]

"BTW, I don't have a PayPal acct."

:o

WHAT? Sounds like you'd better get one! :)

TT

[NaCl_H2O]

WHAT? Sounds like you'd better get one!
Got into a little "Squabble" with them over their "New Terms" a year or two ago & I refuse to give them my business now <Defiant Emoticon goes here>

[TexasTodd]

Yes, they suck!

But, too many places use them.

Anyway, Deltec does NOT take PP. I'm finding out now if we can all pay by credit card separately, or, if it has to be one payment.

Todd

[fiji2000]

If this group order is still open, I would like to get in on it.
Russell

[TexasTodd]

Yes, thanks Russell!

Today will be "LAST CALL", we can order tomorrow.

Todd

[NaCl_H2O]

Today will be "LAST CALL", we can order tomorrow.
Todd, what's up with this? How/When do we pay???

[TexasTodd]

Sorry Steve and all. I have to work a convention today, Sunday, Monday. Probably order Tuesday.

We can all pay with a credit card and then ship to one address.
I'll post the details to each in a PM on Tuesday.

Todd

[NaCl_H2O]

Sorry Steve and all. I have to work a convention today, Sunday, Monday. Probably order Tuesday.
Thanks ... are you a booth babe :P
Did you borrow the MAAST thong from Gary :sick

[falcondob]

Sorry Steve and all. I have to work a convention today, Sunday, Monday. Probably order Tuesday.
Thanks ... are you a booth babe :P
Did you borrow the MAAST thong from Gary :sick

Steve, this thong thing has got to go away. I am starting to lose sleep to nightmares. :unsure Oh...the humanity....

[TexasTodd]

:) I'll NEVER tell!

T

[TexasTodd]

O.K., SORRY FOR THE DELAY HERE.

I'M SWAMPED WITH WORK. DELTEC DOES NOT TAKE PAYPAL.

I'll wait a day or two to hear back. Here's the problem: We only save $15 each and it's going to be a pain getting these all to everyone. I thought for sure we'd be able to get up to the "10 order" level discount.

I'm thinking we should all just order on our own.

Comments?


Todd

[falcondob]

That is ok with me, Todd. Can you send me the info?
Thanks,
John

[TexasTodd]

Here's the link.

http://www.deltecusa.us/aquariummedia/phosphatetestkit.php


Thanks,

Todd

[Ram_Puppy]

you could have everyone pay-pal one person in the group, that person dumps the money into their account and buys the test kits...

I would love to buy one of these, but in all honesty, it christmas time and I like many people am strapped for cash. if you guys waited until late january or even feb, you might get a better response.

[Richard]

Did anyone ever get ones of these kits???

[purplesprite]

yea anyone?? im tagging along to see how well these work.

[NaCl_H2O]

Not me ... I'm thinking Todd did, but where is he :unsure

[fiji2000]

I did
:D

[fiji2000]

Well I guess I should give everyone an update, on how this test kit works.

First let me tell you about my system. System is primarily a SPS tank with some fish totaling about 450 gallons, the display tanks is a 240. I have 4 refugiums totaling about 100 gallons, the rest of the total gallons are just sump.
I have found my Phosphate readings to be really low. And I believe this is a result of having over 20% of the volume as refugium. Originally I was testing for phosphate with the Salifert test kit, results from this test kit were on the low side of the test scale. But with the Deltec test I found phosphate to be slightly < 0.024 mg/l PO3-4. I believe the results to be accurate. This is a very expensive test kit and my recommendation would be to buy one and share it with a friend as it will cost about $1 every time the test is performed. I would also recommend testing prior to going out and purchasing a bunch of Phosban reactors.
Hope this information is helpful.
Russell
Fiji2000

[GaryP]

Russell,

Do you do anything for phosphate control besides skimming and the fuge? Please fill us in on the details of your system so that some of us can learn from your success.

[fiji2000]

Gary,

I really don’t know.
I attended Paletta’s presentation and was probable one of the first ones to order several reactors to get this phosphate problem under control. (I have not installed them yet.) Well it turns out that it wasn’t that much of a problem. I do skim 24-7, and on the wet side, mechanical filtration is done by a simple sock and is only cleaned weekly. RO-DI is used for top off, I use a dual DI filter to get TDS to zero. Feeding I would say is typical, no way am I starving this tank. I don’t think my methods for maintaining alkalinity or PH would have any effect on the phosphate amount. It would be interesting to test other systems with similar volume ratios (total volume v refugium). What do you think?

Russell
Fiji2000

[NaCl_H2O]

Russell, I have a large system with a fairly large fuge. I too jumped out and bought PhosBan reactors, but got lazy and didn't get the Phosphate test kit. I have been running the PhosBan reactors for awhile, and recently took them out. I have seen far more negative results than positive. I expect my Phosphates (like yours) were already low and I dropped them too low with the PhosBan :(

[fiji2000]

What type of negative results have you seen? And what do you think your total volume to frig ratio is?

Russell
fiji2000

[NaCl_H2O]

Total "operational" water volume is probably about 500g, fuge is about 75-100g of that. Negative results are a few acros with poor coloration, and a few with spotty bleaching. Also made some recent lighting changes that could have contributed.

But for now, the PhosBan is out!

[GaryP]

IMO, the cheapest phosphate test kit out there is a Mod 1 Mark 1 eyeball. Green slimy stuff is indicative of high levels.

[TexasTodd]

O.K., lost track of this thread. :)

I got a kit quite a while back.

Mike had accused me of underfeeding my system. :o

I got my kit and could not get any reading. So I e-mailed Deltec with exactly how I did it and asked if I might have a faulty kit. He said to test some water that had some frozen food floated in it for a few seconds......................the test showed blue off the charts.

I've really been screwing with my system since November when Mike was here. I have notices a huge increase in color with extra feeding and have also pushed the upper limit of this for a couple of week where macro algae started to grow and I saw some negative affects on the sps.

BOMBER to bring up a RC event! The guy is smart whoever he is. He made a statement once a long time ago that went something like this: "the idea parameters for sps growth are when PO4 is present so as not to grow macro algae, but to allow micro algae". I think...it was a long time ago.

Gary? Does this make sense. I think his claim was that the macro algae needed higher PO4 than Micor algea to grow and the "window" was also where sps had optimal growing conditions. Thus also the need to still have our "critters detrivors" in there.

On phosphate binders I think this: They are VERY dangerous, but can do good things. I believe that most problems come from two areas with their use: 1. Don't use the full amount on label directions, limit to 50% at most. 2. Many people that use these are people who already are slight "under feeders" and when you add the binders it brings PO4 too low.

So, use lower amounts and feed a little more, I believe in this usage they are benifitial. But just my O/E.

Todd

[TexasTodd]

One other thing. Remember that the golden rule with problems is:

Base up recession (slower, not RTN) is USUALLY PO4 driven, either too low or too high.

Tips down is usually Alk problems.

This is leaned from others and seen happen in my systems from "screwing" with them. :)

Todd

[GaryP]

Todd, yes that makes sense. Remember that most corals are also algaes, i.e. zooanthellae. Even the purest reef waters contain low levels of phosphates. I was recently re-reading Sprung and Delbeek (Vol 1) and they talk about nutrient cycling in a typical reef. Its a possibility that phosphate export technology has caught up with the bugaboo that it has always been and we have become so accustomed to trying to fight this problem that the technology has surpassed the need for it. We can be over treating and creating more of a problem than was already there.

In my case, I created a new problem from using phosphate binders heavily. I have a pretty good idea where my diatoms came from, those little white granules I used to use religiously. If I see a hair algae problem arising I will use it again, but not as a routine maintenance product. Again, an example of trying to do to much.

Does that mean that phosphate binders aren't appropriate in a smaller system that doesn't have a monter fuge like some of you guys have? Absolutely not. I think we just need to look at every system individually and evaluate its needs as such. Unfortunately, some folks have a tendency to look at one system and try to duplicate its success, even though their own system may be fundamentally different in many ways. No 2 systems are the same and no magic formula exists to put you onto the path to reefer nirvana. That's where the art and science of reefkeeping meet.

[TexasTodd]

"Unfortunately, some folks have a tendency to look at one system and try to duplicate its success, even though their own system may be fundamentally different in many ways. No 2 systems are the same and no magic formula exists to put you onto the path to reefer nirvana. That's where the art and science of reefkeeping meet."

Above from Gary. You got that right! I'm still figuring out my system since changing from my old 92g last June!

Todd

[GaryP]

Since you started with a tried and true system I'm sure its just a matter of fine tuning. We all can be our worst critics when it comes to our tanks. All I see whan I look at mine are imperfections. Others only see the good stuff. You are more of an SPS guy then Blake is/was, so I'm sure you are looking more at optimizing it for SPS. Blake's system seemed to be set up more for a mixture of corals and fish and seemed to do a good job at it.

I guess the lesson there is that even the same system operated and stocked by two different people can be two seperate systems. it more then just the hardware. There is a definite style and human factor involved here.

[gjuarez]

Gary, I agree with your statement about always looking for imperfections. I do the same. Lets use some RC member's tank for example. Many people saw Bomber's and Joefish's tank and jumped right in the bandwagon without prior research. I jumped in the bandwagon too, but I did do research. A lot of people failed because their nitrates were up the roof, not going to go into that but we all know why. I had a friend who dosed all kinds of stuff into his tank once he went BB thinking there was going to be miraculous growth and he was going to have a high alk and cal demand. He created some problems of precipitation, tried a quick fix, ph dropped like crazy, tank crashed. He did not take into consideration that in BB demand for alk and cal drops a little. He thought he was good enough to know all his parameters and didnt need test kits. This is just one story, its a stupid one, but it proves the point.
So going back to phosphates, does any one know the fine line where phosphates should be? Or is this the type of question that if we knew the answer we'd be millionaires?

[TexasTodd]

Hey Jerry, I think I posted Paletta's advice on a optimum PO4 range somewhere on the first 1-2 pages of this thread.

Todd

[JimD]

"We can be over treating and creating more of a problem than was already there" I think you might be on to something there. I've never used any type of PO4 remover and probably never will. Although I have tested for it using a generic test kit, it always shows zero, I know its there but as long as the cheap kit reads zero, thats where my PO4 "should be". I dont have an algae problem and my acros are extremely colorful so thats my personal strategy. I might also add that I feed mainly P.E. Mysis which is freeze dried and not frozen in water and never feed flake.

[Richard]

Although I have tested for it using a generic test kit, it always shows zero, I know its there but as long as the cheap kit reads zero, thats where my PO4 "should be".


That's why I decided against buying this kit. I use seachems kit which goes from zero (yellow) on up(turns shades of green). I'm sure it's not as accurate as this kit in the low range that we care about but as long as I don't see ANY green then I know phosphates are in the range that I want them. For me at least this expensive kit just wasn't of any practical use. I already spend too much on this hobby so I need to stop buying things just to play around with.

Personally I don't think I have a reason to use phosban reactors. I feed my tank very heavily and the skimmer keeps residual organics low (but not too low) and my carbon "dsb" seems to take care of the phosphates and nitrates since they are undetectable with my test kits. To me, using phosban reactors is just too aggressive on a reef system plus bacteria can do the job much cheaper than phosban.

[hammondegge]

sorry wrong forum

[don-n-sa]

Remember that most corals are also algaes, i.e. zooanthellae.

Sorry Gary...I have to raise the flag on this one.

Corals are minute animals living together in massive colonies...But most of their food, about 98%, comes from tiny algae called zooxanthellae that live within the corals. I am positive that you already know this...just a typo right?? :huh

[GaryP]

Don,

Most organisms that we call "corals" are symbiotic organims. Meaning two organisms living together communally to the benefit of both. Yes, corals are animals but they contain algae in their tissues. These algae (zooanthellae) are members of the dinoflagellate family to be exact. I'm not sure that the 98% number is accurate. They do get the majority of carbohydrates from the symbiotic algae, but still need amino acids and other nutrients from the water and particulate foods.

[don-n-sa]

Yes that is all correct Gary, but the comment that corals are algaes is not true....I was just trying to clarify. :)

[GaryP]

Don,

I guess its just a matter of how you read it. What I meant was that corals are an algae too. The operative word in my original post is "also."

[don-n-sa]

But Gary they are not an algae too :P ...they are an animal with a symbiotic relation with an algae.

Just because two living things have a symbiotic relationship does not mean that they are one animal/plant...they are still two separate living things.

If that were the case then we are bacteria since we have bacteria in our digestive systems that help break down food....I am just having fun with you Gary....all in fun.... :D

Here are some other examples of symbiotic relationships:
oxpecker (a kind of bird) and the rhinoceros or zebra. Oxpeckers land on rhinos or zebras and eat ticks and other parasites that live on their skin. The oxpeckers get food and the beasts get pest control. Also, when there is danger, the oxpeckers fly upward and scream a warning, which helps the symbiont

The bee and the flower. Bees fly from flower to flower gathering nectar, which they make into food, benefiting the bees. When they land in a flower, the bees get some pollen on their hairy bodies, and when they land in the next flower, some of the pollen from the first one rubs off, pollinating* the plant. This benefits the plants. In this symbiotic relationship, the bees get to eat, and the flowering plants get to reproduce.

The spider crab and the algae. Spider crabs live in shallow areas of the ocean floor, and greenish-brown algae lives on the crabs' backs, making the crabs blend in with their environment, and unnoticeable to predators. The algae gets a good place to live, and the crab gets camouflage.

The bacteria and the human. A certain kind of bacteria lives in the intestines of humans and many other animals. The human can not digest all of the food that it eats. The bacteria eat the food that the human can not digest and partially digest it, allowing the human to finish the job. The bacteria benefit by getting food, and the human benefits by being able to digest the food it eats

[GaryP]

OK, now compare and contrast parasitism, commensalism and symbiosis for 10 extra points.

Question: What do you call a photosynthetic coral without algae?

Answer: A pretty rock, but is it still a coral?

Donnie, what about lichens? You missed that one.

Reefer philosophical jousting! I love it!!!!

P.S. That's a mighty fine lookin jousting stick thingy you gotcha there Sir Donnie.

[gjuarez]

Gary, how is a pretty rock photosynthethic? Is it because of the coraline algae. I am assuming that you said PRETTY because of the coraline.

[donniekim]

I wish they had indepth discussions about this kind of thing on MARSH!
This was a very informative read!

Thanks MAASTards! (said in fun)

Donnie
MARSHian

[don-n-sa]

Thats a great compliment Donnie!!!

With someone like Gary around, we have alot of them.... :)

Donny

MAASTARD

[TexasTodd]

"With someone like Gary around, we have alot of them.... "

LMAO! Sometimes JUST with Gary.....gotta love him.! :wub


So, no one picked up on my earlier "BOMBER" statement I'd hope would.

SO, IF THE OPTIMAL POINT FOR SPS IS WHERE MACRO WON'T GROW, BUT MICRO ALGAE WILL STILL GROW.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................... Which I'm seeing similar conclusions in my own system.............................THEN, IF YOU HAVE MACRO GROWING IN YOUR SUMP/FUGE.......................????????

Remember, not that sps won't grow, but optimum for them.

Comments? Love stirring the S!

:)

TT