Flow SPS still no color

[bigdscobra]

Well finally I have all my lights set up so I should be able to support sps with out a problem. In my 29g reef.

LIGHTS = 250w XM 10k, 2 VHOs antinic R 220w

Now lets talk about my flow do I have enought flow to have good sps????

FLOW = one maxijet 295gph one return pump iwaki wmd30-rlt ~ 400gph and one biowheel 125 which is ~125gph.


You would think this should be enough flow even with out the maxijet, but I haven't had any luck so I added the maxi jet today.


What are your thoughts???

Thanks
Dan

[bigdscobra]

here is a chart of the flow

[Tim Marvin]

Do you wash the bio wheel every week with fresh water? It is probably producing phosphates and will eventually kill your SPS. I'd add another maxijet 1200, put carbon in the HOB filter, and stick to 25% water changes every month.

[::pete::]

You could also try the mod to turn the MJ into an eductor.

[JimD]

SPS prefer random or alternating flow, current, much more than static flow which is what you have. On that size tank I would recommend a closed loop with a scwd on like a Mag12 or maybe a Mag9.5. Flow is only part of the whole picture when it comes to acros, are yours wild or cultured? What species? What are you water parameters? How mature is the tank? Some acros take a long time to get their color, some, unfortunately, never do... You may want to consider more actinic lighting, also, experiment with different locations in the tank, sometims its as simple as that...

[bigdscobra]

The biowheel is removed from the filter I use the filter for the carbon.

Pete how do you do that mod and what does it do.

Parameters in the tank are all normal I also have a fuge hooked up to remove phospates.

I just noticed today that all my green stars are not opening today could that be because of the light change just put in the 10k last night use to have a 20k in there.

[bigdscobra]

I have some green and purple monopora digitata, both have grown but no color. Polyp extension is small not normal.

[GaryP]

Do you wash the bio wheel every week with fresh water? It is probably producing phosphates and will eventually kill your SPS.

Huh? You lost me there Tim. 1. Washing a biowheel in FW would kill the bacterial culture growing on the biowheel. That seems sort of counter productive killing your bio culture every week. 2. How does a biowheel "produce" phosphates? Food produces phosphates. Most food contains 1% phosphate based on its dry weight. A lot of it is absorbed by the critters that eat it, but the rest is excreted in waste.

Back to the original topic - from what I have seen and read the two major factors in color development are light intensity and the spectrum of light. The 420 nm spectrum is what is though to cause colored pigment production in SPS. 420 nm is what is present in true actinic bulbs. When I say true actinic I am not referring to the blue bulbs that are sometimes confused with actinic. They are 460 nm bulbs. The best combination of bulbs I have found for maximum 420 nm is URI actinics and XM-10K MH.

[bigdscobra]

So if it is the phosphates what would help out, more water changes, bigger fuge I can double the size of it just need to adjust some of the plumbing and put a 20g in its place.

[GaryP]

Try using a phosphate absorber like Phosban or Phosorb. The fuge helps too.

[Tim Marvin]

That's right Gary, I'm not sure what I was thinking at the time. I would remove the wheel or wash it because it will produce nitrates at higher levels than just rock or a sump. The wet dry methods has gone to the side. Refugiums work very well at removing this and dripping kalk will help to remove the phosphate that are put into the system via tap water and poorly maintained RO/DI systems. Substantial water changes will keep everything diluted also. At any rate, elevated levels of anything in your tank can cause out breaks of various things as well as poor color. If you smoke it is a really bad idea to put your hands in the tank because you will introduce nicotine into the water, you may also watch for red mites if you are having a problem with color.

[jaded]

Im not sure if this is the MOD that pete is talking about but Im totally impressed with it. I think it would be perfect for your size tank
http://www.maast.org/modules/PNphpBB2/files/stream_mod.jpg
heres a link to the thread on RC (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=611354&highlight=carbon ) but I have made some improvements and actually have a plan for something that should create a great deal more flow (on the order of the SEIO or even smaller Tunze).

[GaryP]

I would remove the wheel or wash it because it will produce nitrates at higher levels than just rock or a sump. The wet dry methods has gone to the side.

I don't think that wet dry methods are not effective. Yes they do produce nitrates. They are supposed to. The problem that some tanks have is that they don't have the processes in place to complete the nitrogen cycle. Once the nitrates are produced, there is not the anoxic environments present to support the bacteria that complete the nitrogen cycle and convert the nitrates to nitrogen gas.

[Tim Marvin]

I arrest my case. 99.999999% of hobbiest would have a useless filter, IMO. The refugium seems to be the best way to go from what I have experienced, but then of course I don't have a reef tank so what do I know about SPS. JK LOL.

[GaryP]

OK, now ask me how many wet/dry's I have on my tanks? OK so the little sponge thing in my nano might qualify as one. I might put one in my next large system but only as an add on to the other filtration systems I put in the system. I think it may be helpful in terms of handling dissolved organics, but not necessarily as a primary filtration system as is the often case. A wet/dry is doing the same thing as LR does, but probably more efficiently because of the highly oxygenated environment in which it operates.

[Tim Marvin]

You could also try something with less down falls like a skimmer. Just my opinion though.

[bigdscobra]

Tim I think you are right all I have is a cheep seaclone 100 in my sump it pulls out about one cup a week

[bigdscobra]

BUTTTTT I think Iam going to get rid of the 10K XMs the tank seems to be a lot better with 20ks

[gjuarez]

BigD, a CPR bak pak skimmer would work really work great on a tank that size. You would also do great with a hang on remora protein skimmer. Just my opinion. I had a seaclone on my 29g reef and it would never pull out anything. I had to modify it with a wooden air stone to get it to do anything.

[bigdscobra]

A CPR would be good but I have all my tanks connected together so its about 75G the CPR wouldent handle that.

[gjuarez]

The wooden air stone modification worked well for me, you can try that for the meantime. I really wouldnt know what skimmer to reccomend for your system but you could ask around. I am sure someone has a perfect suggestion on a skimmer for a 75g system.

[Instar]

So far no one has commented on the bulb switch from 20k XM to 10k. You will need to adjust the photoperiod because a new bulb at 10k is much brighter that an older 20k. Much more PAR. Adjust the corals to that bulb and keep the temperature from swinging all over the place between day and night. Temperature swings, sudden chemical changes and not using good RO/DI will strip the color out. Also, a 24 inch VHO even if true 03 actinic at 420nm has a shorter wave to develop due to the length of the bulb. The center bulb intensity is not as wide in the middle as a 48 inch bulb. If the actinics are not 420nm as GaryP says, change them. Also, if they are old bulbs, get new ones. I would keep the 10k XM and wait for the colors to come up. Bring the actinics on 1 hour before the XM and off 1 hour after. Photo period should end up being close to a natural reef, 12 to 14 hours. Flow is part of it, O2 is part of it too and the tank needs to be stable, chemically and temperature wise between day and night. Not too cool. I met someone recently who was keeping their tank at 72 degrees F. Lots of coraline should be growing. If you don't get the color spectrum after the corals are used to the new 10k, and you have found a good way to alternate the current flow some or cause some turbulence, then I would add true 420 (03) actinic pc's the the lights. Some corals are brown when sold, and stay brown for a very long time and maybe never will be anything else. GaryP's tanks have lots of color! I'd copy him exactly, including maint procedures. Pictures in the galleries usually give you and idea. Since you have a refugium, do you light it either 24/7 or on opposite photoperiod from the tank? Good macro growth? I'm kinda thinking you need more water moving to create some turbulence. If fish food settles anywhere and is not rolled up into the currents of the water column, there isn't enough turbulence or flow.

[bigdscobra]

Iam using the Actinic bulbs that Gary was talking about They are supper actinic R from URI and are 48in to cover both my reef and angler tank. The tanks temp ranges from 80-85 I have two more fans for the canopy on the way. For the food part it never settles there is alot of turbulence and you see the food go all over up and down. I did switch back to the 20k MH, only had the 10k in for a day and the tank looked horrible nothing was opening and the softies didn't look good now they are back to normal. I think it was just too intense of light and maybe to close to the water its about 7in off of the water I could maybe go up another 1-2in off the water but thats about it. All the softies are doing great in my tank maybe I will just stick to them. :(

[Instar]

There's a lot to be said for a softie tank. They can be really colorful. I think GaryP's lights are about 7 inches (maybe 8 and also unshielded) off the water too, but the temp doesn't swing from 80 to 85 in a day. If it swings more than about 2 degrees, that can contribute to color loss and/or bleaching for sps. The high temp of 85 is not that big a deal so long as it doesn't swing from day to night or on cooler days to warmer days and your skimmer is running 24/7. Actually, once adjusted gradually from a short photo period, increasing little by little over several weeks, the corals will adjust to the new 10k and the 10k bulb will "burn in". After several weeks of acclimation, the 10k bulbs usually bring up a better color spectrum. It is influenced greatly by the ballast brand though so it is possible you have similar results from the 20k as someone else gets from a 10k.

[bigdscobra]

After a talk with Alex at his house Iam pritty sure it is the temp that is keeping me from the being able to keep sps. I checked the temp this morning when I woke up about 10am it was 80F at 11pm it was up to 86F That is why the sps doesnt last or color up. So untill I add a chiller to keep it at 79F than I wouldent be able to keep SPS. :(


Lights 250w MH 20k plus 220w VHO of actinic supper R
Flow 20 times turn over
Phosphates good no algea growth

Has to be the temp.

[thedude]

Have you tried out fans yet? Slightly cheaper than a chiller :o

[bigdscobra]

Yeah working on it, I have a 6in fan in the top of the canopy for now, just bought two 80mm and looking to get two 120mm and adding all of them, but will it make that much of a difference to bring the temp lower. Iam sure it will keep it a little more constaint.

[bigdscobra]

You have to remeber that my canopy and lights cover both tanks so thier is more heat from the two MH and two VHOs, the canopy is about 60in across.

[gjuarez]

LOl. I like bumping old threads.. This was a good thread and great discussion by some of our most knowledgeable reefers, Gary, Larry (instar) and Tim Marvin. Where are they? Anyways, enjoy!

[corkyGramma]

250w mh way too much heat for a 29gal.

[OrionN]

Last I heard Tim is out of the hobby.
I agree that what ever problem this reefer had, it was not due to too little light.

[gjuarez]

Tim hooked me up with my first sps ever, it was a green slimer, tri color purple valida, orange monti cap, purple monti cap, and a couple of others. He gave us the mites, lol. As soon as he found out he called us, then he suggested we use interceptor. LOL We had fun with it