Help fish is dying

[v2k]

Please help if you have any advice to offer:
my purple firefish is now lying on its side on th bottom of the aquarium,,it is still breathing but otherwise not moving...is there any hope?

V2k

[Reef69]

What are your water parameters???

[v2k]

I tested the water this yesterday and this morning,

39 gallon tank

ammonia present between .25 m and .5 agghhh
I treated the water with Prime

Nitrites 0

Nitrates 0

Ph seems low, 8 even though I added a capful of liquid calcium and a capful of Purple up over an hour ago.

should I gently change the water (I changed 10 gallons on Friday)
to get the Ph up and get rid of some ammonia?

[hammondegge]

sounds like your tank is just starting to cycle. how long has it been set up??

[Reef69]

..Ye, how long has it been up and running?

[v2k]

Should I very gently conduct a25% water change? I

t has been running since the May 28, at which time I used the water and 10 pounds of live rock from my ten gallon aquarium and after it seemed to have cycled, I added a damsel, a firefish and some mushrooms and about 10 more pounds of live rock....Everyone was flourishing so since June 10 I have added at intervals: two anemones, four small xenia polyps, three small clavularia polyps and two small colonies of zooanthids, one feather duster....added about 8 more pounds of live rock.

Then I did a stupid thing and fed the anemones raw shrimp and did not notice a couple of chunks which were swept behind the rocks...which caused an ammonia spike, which caused the xenia to turn into jelly about 10 days ago which caused the ammonia to spike again. I added a pouch of nitrobacteria, then changed 25% of the water again this past friday.

I was assured by a sales person whom I know is very knowledgable and answers in good faith, that my aquarium water was conditioned, that it did not have to cycle all over again, the ammonia was tested and the levels were not deemed to be dangerous to the addition of , a cleanup "crew" of three snails and a shrimp, plus another colony of mushrooms and this poor purple firefish whom I could not resist darnit.

The fish was swimming this morning and trying to feed, although it was swimming rather vertically.

The aquarist told me that the fish is hardy, to turn off the lights and wait a couple of hours, that there is hope. It is lying down on its side, still breathing, on the bottom.
Everyone else in the tank is happy, just this poor fish.

Oh, I feel terribly irresponsible for stocking the aquarium before I got the ammonia down to zero.

[hammondegge]

do you still have the ten gallon set up. can you move the firefish over to it??

[v2k]

I could, but there is currently a large hermit crab which my son got at the beach living in it...I thought the fish had died but it just wiggled a bit with quite a bit of strength, then went back to lying down...


I won't let it die and contaminate my aquarium again...

[Richard]

Move it immediately or stick it in the freezer. Why watch it die slowly. Firefish are very sensitive to ammonia, I would move it to the other tank or even some freshly mixed sw. No acclimation just move him. If permanent damage has been done he's a goner no matter what you do.

[hammondegge]

perhaps you could trade the hermit for the firefish. the fish may be shocked by the ammonia level, but may recover if moved to a less toxic environment.
btw, i brought a bunch of hermits home from Rockport, Tx once. the buggers grew like nuts, ripped some of my blue legs from thier shells, knocked over corals, and sounded like flamenco dancers all night long. i finally gave them to LFS. be careful. these were not as bad as the "little" gulf crabs though.
good luck with the firefish

[Tim Marvin]

Richard's advice is the only chance it has IMO also.

[v2k]

Thank you for your feedback...I am going to do the water change because I am afraid of what that hermit crab will do to the reef aquarium...although he is a fun guy to watch: he climbs on everything as hgih as he can and then clanks to the bottom of the tank! He is what started this whole business, because we let my son bring him home, and I felt obliged to keep it alive, and now I am totally amazed by this whole saltwater aquarium thing...I have managed a fresh water aquarium for about six year with plants and fish , but it pales in comparison.

[Richard]

Unless your planning on a 100% water change you will not drop the ammonia to zero. You could put a little water from the other tank in a bucket/bowl whatever and put the firefish in it. The clock is ticking for that fish.

I would go pick up some bacteria (BioSpira or TLC) to quickly fix the tank with the ammonia. And remove the rotting shrimp too.

[v2k]

Oh. Okay. I will put the crab in a bucket and the fish in the ten gallon and get the biospira...the shrimp has been gone for weeks, I have a bare bottom tank so it was easy to search out.

thanks

[Richard]

Then I did a stupid thing and fed the anemones raw shrimp and did not notice a couple of chunks which were swept behind the rocks...which caused an ammonia spike, which caused the xenia to turn into jelly about 10 days ago which caused the ammonia to spike again. I added a pouch of nitrobacteria, then changed 25% of the water again this past friday.




the shrimp has been gone for weeks



Oh, I guess I should read closer. When you say you added nitrobacteria what brand are you talking about? Biospira and TLC brands are both very effective IME but there are some brands that have never worked wel for me. Just wondering why you still have ammonia.

[v2k]

Thank you for your continued interest. Either the nitrobacteria wasn't enough or it wasn't a succesful brand I will look for Biospira and TLC brands. This presence of ammonia is a mystery to me and very frustrating. I apologize for submitting a poor fish to my lack of judgment. I have been vacuuming the detritus, I have a Lee bio skimmer which skims watery, but very green, change the filter every one or other week in the biofilter and an extra power head to stir up the waters and provide more oxygen. It turns out the reason my Ph was low this afternoon was because I had turned off the lights. I am retrofitting the Eclipse hood with new compact lights which should arrive next week. I am also going to stay away from fish shops, except for buying the biospira, so that I am not tempted to add anymore life to the tank and let it just be for a while.

Thank you again for your support.

sadly, V2k

[Instar]

A bare bottom tank is very difficult to colonize. There is limited subtrate for bacteria films since there is no sand. The surface area from the grains in added sand is huge and there is none of that. The bacteria film will have to ramp up to meet the need if the environment is not too toxic. Add to that the toxins from rotting xenia and you do have troubles. Probably needs a skimmer, complete water change and/or carbon and a new bacteria culture. A sump with live sand and a refugium would help tons in this kind of tank. Its normal to have a normal 8.0 pH. Thats not something you can fix in salt water, its normal with the kinds of test kits available. Tyring to get a reading of more than 8 may mean you kill everything in the tank trying and still read 8.0. I recommend not trying to fix what isn't broke until you are an advanced chemist. Its likely to take Mg to raise that as well and there is no real point in raising it as its just not going to stay there. Each tank will balance at its own point depending on kalk, calcium reactors, dosing, etc. Just do good maint. and use the 8 as an indicator that means its good. If it drops drastically to less that 7.9 (the early morning pH) thats an indicator your chemical content is off and nitrates may be up from lack of water changes relative to your setup and consumption rates. Most tanks swing from 7.9 to 8.2 during the day. To get a pH of 8.2 to 8.4 you either have a late afternoon with lots of macro or lots of buffer and/or a high alk. Whoever wrote the book saying a pH has to be higher than 8.0 has a different test kit method and maybe different additives/situation. My newly mixed salt always has about an 8.0 pH with RO according to my kit and it works perfectly well without trying to change it.
Do what Richard said although once blood poisoning has set in, its fatal 99.9% of the time. I hate to say it, but, its probably too late already. Hope to be wrong on that this time.

[v2k]

The literature out there is so confusing...I was under the impression that bare bottom was easier because it is easier to clean up the detritus...If I put in more live rock will that make up for the absence of sand in terms of habitat for the nitro bacteria? I lost the little fish. I am sick to my stomach about it because my ignorance and poor judgment cost a little creature its life. I am going to educate myself further on bare bottom tanks and let the tank be for now. Its ironic, that the ocean obviously commands much respect; now this little piece of saltwater has equally commanded my complete respect.

I appreciate your information about sand and ph. V2k

[truck0000]

Dont be to hard on yourself. I know I made some of the same mistakes that you have made and cost a couple fish their lives. I have asked alot of questions and have been given some solid advice from people on this site. Good to have you around and keep reading and asking question. CD turned me on to a book called " The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" by Robert M Fenner. While I am far from an expert this book was outstanding and very helpful in my planning and getting my 75 up and running.
Good luck