Dying corals..........

[~TG~]

I need some help from the pro's here.... I added a pic below and circled the corals cause I'm not to good with the names...

I have a 58 gallon thats been up for about 8mths (upgraded from an established 30g > 1yr old.) I have several different corals in there. Recently some of the hard corals have been bleaching off and dying I'm not sure why. Here are the specifics of this tank:
No sump just a filter at the moment, a skimmer, 2 pwrheads (MJ900's)
I dose everynight with B-Ionic, add cyclopeeze with feedings and waterchanges every 3 wks or so. Lights are T5's that run all day and an Aqualight MH clip on tank pendant 150wtt-10k that runs between 6-8 hrs.

I just tested the tank and here are the numbers:
Temp. 79
Salinity 1.026 - 1.027
Ph 8.0
Nitrite - 0.2
Nitrate - 50 (not sure if thats the right number from graph)
Alk - normal
Ammonia - 0.25

Any advice would be very helpfull....
Thanks Again
~Thelma

[don-n-sa]

I am far from being a pro, but what jumps out at me is the presence of amonia and nitrite...they both should be undetectable.

[::pete::]

I just tested the tank and here are the numbers:
Temp. 79
Salinity 1.026 - 1.027
Ph 8.0
Nitrite - 0.2
Nitrate - 50 (not sure if thats the right number from graph)
Alk - normal
Ammonia - 0.25

Not a pro, but the salinity is a bit high, nitrates are definitely HIGH and the ammonia should read zero.

[Ed]

I would suggest a water change now and increasing the frequency of future water changes to help bring down/keep down the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Ideally, these readings should all be zero. This may not solve the whole problem, but will improve the overall health of the tank. ;)

HTH.

-Ed

[dwdenny]

water flow seems to be a little low as well with 2 mj900 that is not a whole lot 8X turnover or if the MJ are directly hitting the corals that might not be a good thing as well. just my opinion.

[~TG~]

yeah the salinity i thought was high as well ~ i checked it 3 times...
I usually have it at 1.024 and I just checked it this Sat. not sure why that went up....

Thanks everyone.....keep them coming...
I'm off to do a water change now. :sick ...

How soon after that should I test again?

[dwdenny]

I would test the water going in. When I had my FOWLR I had the new water and old water match salinity, pH and also mixed if for 24hrs or so but that was me not sure if anyone else does that but I did about a 40% change every two weeks on my 45g. But had no skimmer and moderate stocking rate. I would wait 24hrs to give it time to mix all together.

[JimD]

I cant really tell from the pic, what species of coral seems to be mostly affected? I dont think the salinity's the problem, nor nitrates, athough it is high.

[::pete::]

They all look like LPS and SPS.

What water are you using and is there a refugium?
Do you run carbon at all as it looks like there are some softies in therew as well?

[NaCl_H2O]

I agree salinity sounds a little high, but make sure your hydrometer (or whatever) is accurate before making big changes.

Water quality (Ammonia/NO2/NO3) all sound high to me. A water change every three weeks probably isn't adequate for that small of a system without a sump. I would go with 25% WC every two weeeks, like clockwork. Also, have you tested Ca levels?

[::pete::]

Phosphate?

[GaryP]

I think there may be a phosphate issue from looking at the algae in the tank. However, I don't think there is enough of an algae problem to indicate that is the source of the problem. My best guess is toxins from the softies or ammonia/nitrite spikes.

[oceancube]

girl those nitrates and ammonia need to be at ZERO.. do a 10 gallon water change and try to run some carbon see if that helps, salinaty a little high but dont think thats a problem, lmk if you want me to swing by and help out!!ttyl ;)

[~TG~]

~ brain overload ~ :wacko

let me answer as best I can... excuse my spelling.. :unsure

JimD

I cant really tell from the pic, what species of coral seems to be mostly affected?
3 caps ~ 1 bright pink/orange and 2 greens
1 - the cross looking one top right ~ acropora (Fin A had a bunch of these)
1 - neon green something ???
1 - cyanaria small

Pete~

What water are you using and is there a refugium?
Do you run carbon

RO/DI unit - no fuge - and just the carbon thats in the filter...

NaCl / Pete

Also, have you tested Ca levels?Phosphate?No


GaryP

I don't think there is enough of an algae problem
I think theres algae not sure ~ its hairy and dirty looking not green and its only on the skimmer tube, the statue, and some rocks...

[GaryP]

I was trying to say that there isn't enough of an algae problem to indicate a large phosphate problem. However, since you do have an ammonia/nitrate problem it would surprise me to see some excess phosphate levels.

Since you have minimal filtration capabilities, I think the best thing you can do immediately is weekly, 15-20% water changes. In addition try to siphon out any detritus, algae, or leftover food when doing the water changes.

[::pete::]

What is the TDS on the RO/DI?

[akm]

The sps probably dont have enough flow so thats also contributing to their downfall.

[~TG~]

What is the TDS on the RO/DI?

Just when I thought I was keeping up with the answers ~ you lost me.... :unsure
Pete.. I dunno what that is :unsure where/how do I check that??

~Thelma

[::pete::]

With a TDS meter. It shows the disolved solids in the water. How long has the RO/DI been running?

[~TG~]

With a TDS meter. It shows the disolved solids in the water. How long has the RO/DI been running?
I got in Dec. but between 3 of us ~ we use it quite a bit...

[NaCl_H2O]

Just when I thought I was keeping up with the answers ~ you lost me.... :unsure

LOL ... take a deep breath, we really are trying to help & not confuse, but it can be overwhelming :wacko The questions do kinda come rapid fire!!

[::pete::]

I have a TDS meter and can swing by tomorrow to check it for you. It will have to be later though.

Beteen the 3 of us? Another question ;)

[~TG~]

LOL ... take a deep breath, we really are trying to help & not confuse, but it can be overwhelming :wacko The questions do kinda come rapid fire!!

Rapid fire?!?
More like an inquisition from the "MAASTard Mafia" :unsure .... LOL
I appreciate everyones rapid responses here...I always know if I have problems you all are right there in a FLASH....
also ~ If worse comes to worse.. I don't live to far from Pete... :ph34r an I have an unmarked vehicle.... (jk pete) LOL


Between the 3 of us? Another question
LMAO ~ yeah... "Me, Myself & Irene"

[~TG~]

I have a TDS meter and can swing by tomorrow to check it for you. It will have to be later though.

That would be great i'll be here all afternoon... I'll PM you my number and bring your tape measure... :roll

[::pete::]

:o .... LOL ... will do

[NaCl_H2O]

More like an inquisition from the "MAASTard Mafia"
They are an urban legend :ph34r :ph34r :ph34r :ph34r :ph34r - Can you tell who's who with the hoods on :P

If you live close to Pete, then you live close to me too! Let me know if I can help!

[~TG~]

They are an urban legend....
OHHH yeah right gotcha.... :shades


If you live close to Pete, then you live close to me too! Let me know if I can help!

That would be great, you're more than welcomed to come along if you'd like.. not sure what time Pete is coming over at yet but he knows where I live ... ~ I think the members of the "M.M" need to have a meeting at an undisclosed location... :shades

Thanks

[NaCl_H2O]

I think the members of the "M.M" need to have a meeting at an undisclosed location... :shades

How do you know that we (I mean they) aren't doing that right now :ph34r

[~TG~]

I knew it!!!

Cause you all ~ I mean "they" seem to be online all at the same time right now...LOL :unsure

[CD]

Looks like the MAASTard mafia will be coming to the rescue soon, so hopefully this will all be resolved for you. I definitely agree with the weekly water changes, carbon, and getting those ammonia and nitrite readings down...test for the phosphates too - maybe use some Phosguard to help lower?

BTW - I'd be willing to bet that "neon green something" coral in the lower RH side of your tank is a Hydnopora - you have to keep those as far away from other corals as possible...they can send out these stinging "threads" (not to be confused with sweeper tenticles, but I forget what they're called) up to around 8" or so, and will kill anything they touch. :o

W. :)

[TexasTodd]

Good point Wendy!

I know it was already mentioned, but with lots of softies in with hard corals; you need to be running carbon.

My questions: "The three of us" sounds like you are using a RO unit for drinking water. Do you have a DI cartridge on it?

How long ago has it been since you made ANY lighting changes?

Your temp is at "79". Do you have a chiller? What is the range of this tank's temp over a 24 hour period? Not possible for it to stay at 79 exactly all the time.

You must have a minimum of about 10x turnover in your tank per hour to do o.k. with hard corals IMO/IME.

What salt mix do you use? When did you open the "newest" bucket?

You may have posted, but what are your ALK and CA and Mag levels if you didn't? (I'm on 2nd page now :))

Put a sump in. Even a super cheap 10g or 20g will help a ton. What "filter" are you using?

Lots of help huh? All I did is ask a ton of questions!!! :wacko

Todd

[TexasTodd]

O.K., Mafia without sesitivity. :o :unsure :ph34r

I have a 58 gallon thats been up for about 8mths (upgraded from an established 30g > 1yr old.) I have several different corals in there. Recently some of the hard corals have been bleaching off and dying I'm not sure why. Here are the specifics of this tank:
No sump just a filter at the moment, a skimmer, 2 pwrheads (MJ900's) CHEAPEST IS ADD ROTATING NOZZELS ON THESE PLUS AT LEAST ONE MORE AND GET A 1200.
I dose everynight with B-Ionic, add cyclopeeze with feedings and waterchanges every 3 wks or so. GOOD, HOW MUCH DO YOU CHANGE?Lights are T5's that run all day and an Aqualight MH clip on tank pendant 150wtt-10k that runs between 6-8 hrs. AS ASKED, HOW LONG SINCE any LIGHTING CHANGE?

I just tested the tank and here are the numbers:
Temp. 79 IMPOSSIBLE--WHAT'S THE SWING?
Salinity 1.026 - 1.027
Ph 8.0 IMPOSSIBLE--WHAT'S THE SWING?
Nitrite - 0.2
Nitrate - 50 (not sure if thats the right number from graph) WHOA DADDY!
Alk - normal BIG ONE HERE. WHAT DO YOU THINK "NORMAL"IS?
Ammonia - 0.25

Just pointing out the really big areas I'd be scratching at when things like this have happened to me in the past. And it happens to EVERYONE! :)

Todd

[Tim Marvin]

I'm going to say it is your salinity causing the problem. Amonnia, nitrite, and nitrate are all to be expected if things are dieing. I would beef up your flow and do a 40% water change. If the carbon is more than a week old, it is no longer working.

[JimD]

I keep my salinity at .026/35ppt corals love it. www.rshimek.com/reef/tempsal.htm
Gotta love how humble the ole doc is... lol
Im leaning more towards some type of parasite, possibly a nudi, thats why I asked about species,. Inspect the corals, especially the Montis for small nudibraches, usually white or tan in color, also look at the bottom side for small white dots (eggs). Theres been a lot of this going around lately. Also, are these corals RTN/STNing or bleaching? Its possible theres two seperate issuses going on, the stinging Hydno and a parasitic infestation...

[CD]

parasitic infestation...


VERY good point, Jim! Especially noting that it seems to be the hard corals that are having the most problems. Since we just treated for the acro mites, I should have picked up on this! :roll Once those mites have had a chance to increase their numbers, acros will drop like flies. Since the treatment, all the acros that didn't succumb to the mites in our tank are starting to come back, and the ones that were just starting to look sickly are looking great now! Might not be a bad idea to pluck one of the acros out of the tank that is still alive and dip it in Lugol's (about 10 drops per liter of water) and see if any bugs drop off - NOTE these things are TINY and VERY hard to see! It might even be necessary to get a magnifying glass to look for dead mites. Nudis are a possibility too, but usually a lot easier to see.

I DO however still feel that running fresh carbon, and doing weekly water changes are in order...it's very possible that the ammonia is due to die off, but that s/b 0 no matter what. Taking the salinity down to .025 wouldn't be a bad idea either ;)

W. :)

[Tim Marvin]

Some oceans reach 1.030, but This happened more suddenly from the sounds of it. Perhaps you used saltwater to top off?

[Tim Marvin]

Good points also Jim.

[~TG~]

My questions: "The three of us" sounds like you are using a RO unit for drinking water. Do you have a DI cartridge on it? (no we use it only for the tanks ~ its portable so 2 of my friends use it for filling their buckets for top-offs or any water changes and it does have a DI cartridge)
How long ago has it been since you made ANY lighting changes? (new MH about 1-2 months ago)
Your temp is at "79". Do you have a chiller? What is the range of this tank's temp over a 24 hour period? Not possible for it to stay at 79 exactly all the time. (no chiller and it varies from 78-80)
You must have a minimum of about 10x turnover in your tank per hour to do o.k. with hard corals IMO/IME. ??? not sure about this question
What salt mix do you use? When did you open the "newest" bucket? Oceanic Natural Sea Salt Mix ~ 1 month old
Todd

[~TG~]

Some oceans reach 1.030, but This happened more suddenly from the sounds of it. Perhaps you used saltwater to top off?

No I use the RO/DI unit directly for top offs...


Wendy ~
Thanks for the info on the tiny bug/nudi/parasites... I will look today.. The hard acro was halfway bleached within a matter of hours it was not a slow process it was fine that morning then noticed it in the pm...
AND about that hydnopora~ well the caps that died off first were around it.... :( I didn't know it did that... now i know... :unsure

[TexasTodd]

(new MH about 1-2 months ago)

Oceanic Natural Sea Salt Mix ~ 1 month old

Likely one of these two. The sps in the upper right looks burned to me, not eaten. The LPS in the lower left could possibly have more of the "hot spots" on this part of the coral that MH produce vs. florescent type lights (that don't do this much).

The salt you are using has a lot of people questioning it in relation to hard corals especailly sps. We'll never know, but why use it if it is in question by so many well known aquarists? IMO/IME you should switch to Instant Ocean. Like I say, people freak out over mentioning this. We'll never know if it's caused problems in all the tanks people think it has..................but why chance it on YOUR tank?

You may be typing away right now, but I wanted to ask again what your specific Alk test reading is.

I hope this helps you some,

Todd

[TexasTodd]

The hard acro was halfway bleached within a matter of hours it was not a slow process it was fine that morning then noticed it in the pm...

Was there ANY changes just before this happened? Water change, power outage, dosed chemicals?

TT

[Tim Marvin]

Too many variables for me. I'll check back in after it narrows down a bit.