I can't FREAKING believe it.

[TexasTodd]

I've got the darn RED BUGS again!

I've only taken in a couple of local trades, a couple of cultured Acros, and an a couple of ORA frags.

I know I read of ORA having/sending bugs in the past, but I think they keep them clean now.

Just noticed those little turds on a frag this moring. My colors have been improving in the new thank since the change so I think they haven't been in all that long.

Not too happy I just put in 100 hermits a few week back!

Guess I'm off to the salt mines.

Todd

[scuba_steveo]

I told you to treat EVERY frag that you get!

[TexasTodd]

Yep, a little late. I KNOW they didn't come from you!

I've made very few trades since I treated and killed all in my tank in January.

Live and learn!

Todd

[alton]

For some of us new comers to SPS, what is a red bug and how does it affect corals?

[Polkster13]

It is an acropora parasite. They are called red acropora mites. Very nasty and very small to see. They will kill your acros. The treatment takes three weeks (3 treatments one week apart) and usually kills all of your crabs (as well as hermit crabs). That is why you need to either quarantine all new arrivals or dip them before introducing them to your display tank. If you do a search on this web site you will find threads relating to these little buggers.

Check out this link (http://www.littlereef.com/redbugs.htm)

[scuba_steveo]

For those who do not know……
Red Bugs or Red Mites are an acro parasite. They can kill sps but this would take a long time and the sps would have to be covered in them. What they do is stress the sps causing it to slow or stop growth and causing it to fade. They also affect polyp extension to almost nothing. I had them in my system for many months before I finally broke down and treated. The treatment is not fun. It will kill all crabs in the system and many other things as well.

The problem is that they are very hard to see and next to impossible to see if you do not know what you are looking for. I now assume everything I get has red bugs on it and treat every piece before it enters my main system. Now everything gets a 6-hour dip in a bucket with interceptor and lugols before it starts the acclimation over to the system.
I do not trust any coral or rock, but especially any sps, that I get from an LFS, online, or trade. You can look at the piece all you want and not see anything on it but they can still be there.

Do not learn the hard way…..treat first!!!

[GaryP]

Steve, does this mean you are going to give me some frags now?

[::pete::]

Steve can you describe the dip you make? Obviously interceptor is needed, but how much to ...

[TexasTodd]

Steve, does this mean you are going to give me some frags now? :)

Steve's frags are Clean!!!!!!!!! Yea!

It's now Steve's turn to wait on my tank being clean!

TT

[GaryP]

Sounds like a good topic for a meeting talk. Do we have any volunteers?

[TexasTodd]

Do you think....naw, but maybe :huh These are actually genetically engeniered parasites backed by the synthetic sea salt mafia?

I'm looking at needing 5 buckets just for my treatment! Times how many hobbiests per year that get them? Hmmmmmmmmmm!

TT

[thedude]

I've found that a very concentrated lugol's dip kills the redbugs on frags without the use of interceptor.

[TexasTodd]

How many times the standard dose directions?

Todd

[TexasTodd]

Also, how long of a dip?

TT

[thedude]

As to concentration I can't say exactly, all I can say is that my water had a yellow tint to it. I'd estimate that in a gallon of water I used a full dropper or more. As far as dipping time went, I watched the coral. I have mysis and many pods so that when I put the frag in, pods immediately swam off in all directions. I waited for them to die (guinea pigs) then shook the frag in the water and left it in the solution for another 5 minutes. The first frag I tried this on was a dark dark purple so the orange of the tiny bugs was relatively easy to pick out. They dip killed them all and I saw better polyp extension in only a few hours. When you're dipping it might be a good idea to have a small powerhead circulating over the coral to blow off any dead bugs or dying ones. I also recommend getting a magnifying glass and inspecting the coral carefully before it goes back into your system. I've found this useful for finding egg sacks and to make sure you didn't miss anything. I especially inspect zoo's carefully with this method.

John

[thedude]

It may not be a full proof method especially if the bugs are well established in your system but it's most definitely worth a shot as I see the interceptor method as an extreme measure that has many dangerous consequences when not done right. I can't justify the death of all the crabs in my system.

[alton]

Great information! You mentioned Zoo's? Do the bugs attack other corals, softies like mushrooms and LPS?

[scuba_steveo]

Dude, I agree with you one the use of the lugols. I do the same exact thing you described with about the same dose, maybe a little more. I also treat all incoming corals with the interceptor. I do the does at about 10X to 50X of the dose that is for the tank treatment for the same 6 hours. It does not hurt the corals and I do not ever want to have to treat the tank again. I have a bunch of extra interceptor so I use it. Then after the 6 hours I start to acclimate the corals. Once they are acclimated I overdose the lugols. I do this for 5 to 10 minutes. Than I dip the corals in tank salt water to remove the lugols and then I add the corals to the system. If you keep sps and you do not treat all in coming corals in one way or another you are stupid. Trust me, you do not want to have to treat your tank for red bugs. It is expensive, it takes a bunch of time, and all your crabs (that you could not remove) will die.

[thedude]

No not at all, they actually will die and starve to death without any SPS. I check zoo's for other nasty critters like nudibranchs and sea spiders. Zoo eating nudibranchs if they get into your tank are next to impossible to get rid off with the eggs they lay. Also I wonder if one of the commercial aquarium medications in a strong dose would do anything. Just recently I discovered that a normal dose of prazi pro takes care of pinched mantle in clams.

[scuba_steveo]

Great information! You mentioned Zoo's? Do the bugs attack other corals, softies like mushrooms and LPS?

No, They only attack sps but they could come in on a rock as a hitchhiker.
If you have sps in your system that you want to keep clean then you should treat everything that comes in.

[thedude]

Yeah exactly, why put yourself through the headache of redbugs when a careful dip and inspection will take care of it? My reason for using lugol's is that it's very easy to get and not nearly as expensive as the interceptor. Then again, if you're going to pay over 100 dollars for a shipped oregon tort frag, what's the 20 dollars for a pill of interceptor?

[thedude]

Has anyone ever tried one of the commercial medications to kill them? I assume since we know so little about what they actually are and appear to be in the crab family, that a normal med wouldn't do much to them unless you overdosed to the point of poisoning them.

[TexasTodd]

From what I've read you can't usually rid a system of them without using the interceptor. You may knock them back with dips etc, especially if you only have a few sps corals, but they'll still be in your system.

Steve, have you done the pre-treatment on any new acros since you completed treating your whole system?

Todd

[CD]

I've been doing a LOT of reading on these "bugs", as we have been told by a fellow reefer recently that we had some on an acro frag that was traded. Thankfully, he noticed it before putting the frag into his tank, so infestation was not spread. I haven't seen them on the coral myself, but then again I don't have a magnifying glass, and haven't yet yanked the colony out of the tank (I understand they are VERY small) to get a closer look...I plan on doing some dips this weekend with Lugol's, and conduct some experiments of my own to see the effectiveness of this treatment. The Interceptor treatment will be a last resort, and I'm not all that sure at this point (after spending a full day reading every article and thread I could find) that this is the ONLY surefire way to get rid of them, as there are many acros that they seem to stay off of completely - even in a heavily infested tank. (note: Millies and Slimers are totally unaffected by this "mite" from what everyone on RC says).

I thought it interesting that Dr. Ron Shimek has done research on this critter (which seems to be some sort of Harpacticoid copepod of the genus Tegastes) and had concluded that the mites seem to do no damage to the coral (he observed live mites on a live coral under the microscope). Some folks didn't agree at first, but quite a few have come to agree with Dr. Shimek at this point. General concensus with the folks that are concurring with Shimek now say that the red mites may irratate the coral somewhat, but that they are not the cause of tissue recession, loss of color, or outright death of the frag or colony itself. It is thought that the mites are attracted to the slime coating on some corals, but do not actually eat the coral flesh itself. It was also noted that they seemed to be attracted to ailing corals much the same way a bristle worm is attracted to a dying creature.

Although there are no natural predators that are known for SURE to erradicate these mites, some micro biologists have noted that a species of flatworm (wish I would've written the name down, but they are the clear/whitish jellyfish looking flatworms) have been seen eating the mites, and were definitely seen in their digestive tracts. A few reefers have had success with yellow clown gobies eating the mites also.

Chemically, a few have had great success with the use of Chemi-Clean (for red slime removal) and others have used Redox (a diluted form of potassium permanganate) with great success also. If you are able to remove the colony or frag from your system, 15 min. dips in a solution of Lugol's at a concentration of 10 drops per liter of SW for 15 minutes has been highly successful in killing the red mites. This is going to be my plan of attack, as I am sure that not all corals are affected, and I don't relish the thought of killing off every pod, snail and crab that exists in our tank. I'm going to remove any of the corals that have been noted to be commonly affected by the mites, dip those, and see what happens. If all else fails, it's off to the vet's for some Interceptor. :wacko

W. :)

[scuba_steveo]

Steve, have you done the pre-treatment on any new acros since you completed treating your whole system?

Yes. I do this the every coral I put in. Nuke the water at around 50X dose.

They may not kill a sps but since I finished the treatment just a month ago the corals are much much colorful and and growing super fast once again. I do believe that they are on all SPS in the tank if they are on one piece. Some pieces they are just very hard to see. I never saw them on my millies but now after the treatment they are taking off like weeds.

[brewercm]

Simple question then. I'm setting up a new system that I'm going to have a small 5 or 10 gallon that I can take some of the water from the system and fill it up as a quaranteen/med tank as needed. Also force me to small water changes at the same time. :D

For dipping frags or colonies before moving to display what would be the recommended amount of solution to water for this purpose?

[TexasTodd]

I agree with you Steve.

IME the DO affect coral color and growth on some corals.

Some people have debated that all the extra water changes are what affect the growth and color, but I do not believe this to be correct.

I am of the stand point that they will not kill an acropora and that they do seem to be in much greater numbers on acropora that are not as healthy for sure.

I'm also with Steve in that if you see them on one colony; they are everywhere in your system. For sure.

I'm pretty sure these came in to my system about two weeks ago on a small wild granulosa colony.

I've watched some today and as they crawl down in to a polyp the polyp retracts immediatly and stays retracted while the bug is in there.

I know the interceptor is supposed to kill pods too, and it does. But when I did my treatments before I had good pod populations back within 2-3 weeks and visable pods even right after finnishing the treatment. But ALL the red bugs were dead.

I also only did two treatments and slightly stronger than reccommended as Eric Boreman said that they DO NOT HAVE AN EGG STAGE.

The dangerous factors are to any crabs, pods, and some shrimp, and of course the red bugs. This in turn causes what is REALLY the dangerous part of the treatment. These animals dying off will be like a not of extra rotting food in your system. I believe this to be the reason for the huge water changes....not really to get the interceptor out.

My wife ended up in the hospital out of the blue the day after I did my first treatment. I dosed on Sunday morning and did the first 50% water change that evening. She went to the hospital with an emergency infection the next morning and stayed 3 days. I did not do the second 50% water change until Wednesday.------no problems. The second treatment was by the book.

When I treated before I took my total system gallons and DID NOT deduct for rocks and sand. I then bumped up just a tiny bit more on the does for this volume.

I have a mandarin goby and it had no problems making it through the treatments. Still fat, happy, and alive today.

Now I'll really stir the POT!
STEVE, MAYBE YOU ARE SEEING ALL THOSE POSITIVE CHANGES BECAUSE ALL THE WATER CHANGES GOT ALL THAT CRAPPY SALT MIX OUT OF YOUR SYSTEM! :w00t

If anyone wants to see what these look like they can come by. But you'd better be fast as I'm probably going to nuke them with the first dose on Saturday. Isn't that funny that I had already lined up a couple of club members to come over Saturday BEFORE I found the mites?! Guess I'd better get some good steaks and stuff.

Todd

[TexasTodd]

One other thing on these spreading and thinking they are only on one coral

Brian, GreenMako, was over here Tuesday evening and commented on how crazy big the polyp extension was on my corals......................that's what made me take a look this moring when the polyp extension sucked. Yep, two days from them probably being on a couple corals to pretty much all of them!

Todd

[CD]

Todd - I pulled out the large colony that was supposed to have the mites on it, and I didn't see anything. I've seen pics of them on the internet, but never up close and personal. Are they THAT hard to see? I figured they would be pretty apparent upon close inspection, but I just don't see anything :unsure

W.

[Tim Marvin]

Todd, I feel your pain. I treated my tank a year and a half ago, and then had to treat again at the start of this year. I watch very close now and do very little trading. I also freshwater dip for a minute before adding anything to my tank.

[TexasTodd]

CD, I think they are hard to see if you pull the coral out of the water...they hide. Could be wrong. I think people pull the colonies and dip and then see dead/coming off ones.

Tim, thanks man. Yes I remember you were 6hrs in to the second treatment when I stopped by.

Have you ever had an acro die from the fresh water dip?

Todd

[Tim Marvin]

Yes, but not very often. The osmotic shack can kill them off, but depending on the coral it may be worth it. Of course I would never dunk the OBT in fresh water. I did examine it for about an hour before buying it.

[TexasTodd]

Ya, I think my arse would pucker up fresh water dipping a coral like that!

T

[TexasTodd]

You have that right!

I've narrowed it down and am about 98% sure they came in on a sorry looking A. Granulosa I picked up about 2+ weeks before I noticed them. I also made a frag trade just days before this coral entered my system and there are no bugs in the tank I traded to.

The treatment doesn't really scare me, it's just a huge pain in the arse. And much more so now that I'm in a 300 gallon total water system!

I'm going to do 2 treatments at stronger than listed and only 2 50% water changes post each treatment. Plus the LOTS of carbon. Fun, Fun.

Todd

[CD]

CD, I think they are hard to see if you pull the coral out of the water...they hide. Could be wrong. I think people pull the colonies and dip and then see dead/coming off ones.


Thank you Todd - OK, well I dipped the colony in question (high concentration of Lugol's) in a container with a white bottom (so I would be able to spot the dying bugs more easily) and didn't see a darn thing...nada, zip :blink

I totally trust the person that spotted them in the first place, but I would *really* like to see these critters for myself before we go through all the hassle of the Interceptor treatments, massive water changes, etc., etc.

So Todd - you've had success with the two treatments (in lieu of three) in the past...is there a possibility that one treatment would work if the tank wasn't "highly" infested? Reason I ask this, is that you mentioned that Borneman stated that they do not have an egg stage - so would there actually be a need for multiple treatments? If yes, why? When you treated before, did you still see bugs after the first treatment?

Also, did you pull as many of your snails/crabs/etc. out of the tank in an effort to save at least *some* of your clean up crew, or were you afraid that they might somehow carry some of the bugs back in and reinfest?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is freaking me out somewhat...I just want to do what's best for our tank, and since Dr. Shimek is the *only* qualified person that says they don't harm corals (not knowing how extensive his research was) I am of the opinion that it would be better to get rid of them rather than take the chance.

As a side note - is there anyone in Austin (that has had experience with these things) that would be willing to stop by and confirm that we have an infestation? :unsure

W.

[TexasTodd]

No Wendy I did not see any bugs after the first treatment. But some on RC did. But I also bumped the dosage up some.

Snails will not be hurt by the Interceptor. I did take about a week catching every crab I could. Not only does this save the crabs, but it also lightens the bio-load on the tank by having less things die and rot during the treatment.

Boreman said the bugs could not live longer than like 7-10 days what they couldn't feed on an sps coral. So I kept all removed stuff out for 3 weeks.

Todd