Help for a new reefer!

[tangz]

I have had freshwater fish of virtually every variety for 15 years. I have been bitten hard by the saltwater bug. I had a friend a few years back who had a nice reef set-up and I helped him with it and helped him on the side doing aquarium maintenance.

After a reading everything I can get my hands on regarding reef aquariums. Now I am stuck. I have an idea of what I want to do, but need advice before I go lay out several thousand $.

Here is a description of what I am looking at and where I need help.

I want to build a first class system and am trying to do thorough research before I start. I am looking at a 390 gal aquarium; 84 long by 36 wide and 30 deep. I am leaning toward glass, possible starfire glass. Any hints? Where do I get one built? Is 'low iron' glass any good?

I plan to use a huge protein skimmer and a refugium as my primary filters with live rock from Fiji, Tonga, Marshall Islands or Colleni for its light and airy structure to aid filtration. Live sand of some kind of aragonite etc of about 3 inches on bottom.

For water flow, I have no idea how big a pump this will require, but I know what I want: lots of water circulation. A main pump running the protien skimmer and refugium and I like the Sea-Swirl rotating return devices for water return on a closed loop system for water circulation. Everything I have read says more is better.

It seems I will need to incorporate a carbonate additive of some sort. Is a calcium (carbonate) reactor better than daily additives like a 2 part ESV ionic calcium buffer daily?

Initially, I had my mind set on Metal Halides and VHO fluorescents. Now I have seen some tanks with the VHO only. Help. I know I need lots of light. I plan to vent the hood and refugium to the outside for help with overheating.

I plan to use a RO /DI machine for water. Which one do I use?

Here is my wish list of fish. I have looked through what is available, what matches well and what doesn’t and tried to decide on some fish. I hope I have kept the fish load down, so I can add the inevitable 'one more' a few times later on. I tried my best on the spellings; hope I am close

Pair of Ocellaris clowns
Black and White precuse clowns
Nemanthias carberryi
Yellowtail gobie
evansi anthias
blackcap and royal gramma basslet
mandrarin fish – synchiropus slpendidus
neon goby
firefish
purple firefish
diamond watchman
blue flavivertex and friedmans
Tangs' lots of em, Indian ocean sailfin, Hawaiian naso, pacific blue, powder blue, purple and white cheeked surgeon

Cleaners
Blue leg hermit crab
Blood shrimp, indo-pacific white striped shrimp and pistol shrimp
Snails; astraea and bumble bee
Tridacna maxima clam

Inverts - just a start
Green torch
Elephant
Acalycigorgia sea fan
Corky sea fingers
Flexible leather
Pipe organ
Green star polyp
Hawaiian feather duster
Cluster duster
Blue montipora cariconris

Whew, I hope this doesn’t overwhelm you. I just wanted to give you an idea of my dream. Lots of tangs and other colorful fish with cleaners and helpers for the junk. I also want pretty corals with lots of room to grow.

Where do I start looking and researching vendors. I have looked at Drs Foster and Smith, Dr Macs for coral, and signed on to here.

Where do I go for a tank?
On the overflow, what design do you wish you had in your tank?
Carbon? Yes / No Why? I have seen it both ways.
Where to I get the algae for the refugium? Do I use live sand or live mud? What other additional animals do I put in it? What light source do I use.

Over the weekend I read "Ultimate Marine Aquariums..." It was pretty good. As I read, I took notes on what was used by the successful owners on systems like I want to do. As I said earlier, my desire is to build a first class system. I believe the people who have successful systems know what they are doing. If you see something in the list below you love or hate, please let me know. Also, where there is more than one brand, these were the most popular brands and I am looking for some help differentiating between them. What follows are the top picks by these aquarists for the different pieces of equipment:

Refuge Eco System w/ Miracle Mud
RO/DI Spectra Pure and Kent
CO2/CA K2R, ProCal, Knop Reactor
Ozone Ozotech 250
Lighting URI VHO (Far and away the favorite)
Iwasaki 6500K MH (Far and away the favorite)
Pump Iwaki and Dolphin
Wavemaker Sea-Swirl
Computer Control Aquadyne Octopus
Skimmer ETS and Euroreef
Heater Ebo Jager
Chiller Marine Industries, West Coast Aquatics and
Aqua Logic
Sand Carib Sea seafloor and Oolitic, Argonite, ESV
and Oolitic
Fans Ice Cap Variable Speed
Salt Instant Ocean, Kent and Reef Crystals
Supplements Selcon, ESV B-ionic; (calcium buffer, iodide,
magnesium, strontium) Thiel Vita Gold, Lugols
Iodine, Sera Marinevit
Foods ESV spray dried phytoplankton, Ocean
Nutrition 1 and 2, Tahitian blend, Cyclopeeze,
nori and OSI spirulina flakes

I saw lots of people using ESV products. Are they really that good? I read a little about ESV on their web site.

Well, there it is. The brain full of questions and no where close to get answers. Please help me.

[thedude]

I'd point you to reefcentral first to look at some stuff (It looks like you already have been there) then it sounds like we all need to sit down at the next meeting and have a discussion! I could write you a novel on this stuff and my feelings!

[tangz]

You know how I feel. If you can, pick one topic at a time and help me out. I have so many pieces to research and don't know where to start. How about the tank?

[LoneStar]

If your considering going ball$ to the wall, check out pclausen's novel on his set-up. It's pretty cool and might give you an idea or 2.....

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=589483&perpage=25&highl ight=black%20sand&pagenumber=1

[thedude]

Tangz, what's your email address and I'll go through the list that way. Actually a friend and I are planning his 400 gallon system so I've got some knowledge in this stuff. You can PM me your email if you'd like.

John

[scuba_steveo]

look like you have done some good research. If you could make it down to Austin and SA it would be good to tour some large system set ups that some of us have. This way you can see what we did and talk about everything instead of trying to go over it all in a thread. You can get one across in one 10 minute conversation than you can in days of typing in threads. Anyway, if you can make it down to SA I will tell you who's setups you need to see. If you cannot, at least try and give us a call. BTW, what type of corals do you want to keep? Just soft? LPS? SPS? One cannnot answer several of your questions above without know what type of corals you want.

[tangz]

I initially wanted more of a mix of soft and sps. Don't want to mess with the stinging if lps.

After reading the milli SPS string and seeing the pics, I may stick with SPS.

[falcondob]

I have a 300 gallon tank. It has starfire (actually starfire-like) glass on three sides. The dimensions or 24 high, 30 wide, 96 long. I got it from glasscages.com. I am very happy with the tank. The stand and hood are another matter. Although they were built "OK", they came no where near the price they charged. Have ~pete~ build you a hood and stand. He also makes great skimmers.

If you get a tank deeper than 24 inches, it will be harder and harder to reach things on the bottom. Light penetration can become an issue also. Talk with others about this dimension.

Also, know where you are going to put it. I ended up using mine as a room divider. If I had made that decision ahead of time I would have had the glass and overflows build differently.

Have Dan Parks build your sump, refugium, overflow covers, etc.... Basically anything acrylic. He does great work and is a great guy.

Get with GaryP on anything chemistry. He can help you understand the processes and show you some ways to avoid expensive chemical additives.

A few "FYIs", "Don't Dos" and "Hints":

(1) If your tank costs $1500, you can easily spend 5 times or more that getting it up and running. Don't dismiss used stuff, but buy with caution.
(2) Don't buy the mandrian dragonet until your system has been up for quite a while. Without constant feeding of pods, you will starve it to death. A few will eat frozen, but they are the minority.
(3) Personally, I like Tunzes for water movement. They are expensive, but they are excellent and flexible. I have 2 6100s. Combined, I think they move something like 8000 gallons an hour.
(4) RO/DI is not an option, it is a requirement. IMHO
(5) Get a Lowe's and Home Depot card. Get high limits. Go and meet the guys in plumbing and electrical. Have dinner with them. Meet the family. You will see more of them than you own family. (Just kidding, but not much.)
(6) Move slowly and have a plan. There are people in MAAST who are good "specialists". Look to them for plumbing, electrical, corals, fish, inverts, lighting, sand bed, filtration, additives, well I think you get the picture.
(7) If you haven't, pay the dues and join MAAST. The org deserves the support.

Well, that my 1.765 cents worth. Feel free to ask me anything. If I don't know the answer, I will make it up. ;)

John

[GaryP]

I think everything was pretty much covered except the depth of the sand bed. I would go deeper, at least 4-5", especiallt in a tank that deep. Lights depend on what corals or clams you are going to keep. MH and VHO actinic is prbably the way to go IMO. Use a factor of >100 watts per square foot as a starting point for planning purposes for SPS. The higher the K value, the higher the wattage you will need.

Look at a fairly small flow through your sump and fuge and do the majority of the tank flow going through your closed loop. For a tank that size with SPS you need to look at something like a calcium reactor for supplements. The cost of using B Ionic will eat you alive for a tank that size. You can still use it to some degree to help keep your calcium/alkalinity ratio in balance. A calcium reactor also has the advantage of providing most trace minerals. I'm not a strong believer in using every supplement on the LFS shelf. Calcium, Buffer, and magnesium should be all you need. Everything else should be provided by water changes. Scratch iodine from the list.

[Reef69]

man, i want a big system.. :cry

[scuba_steveo]

me too

[Gator]

me three

[GaryP]

Gator's next step is to water tight his house and he'll be living in the aquarium. I think I have had apartments smaller then his aquarium.

[Gator]

tunze are awsome, but i also like a closed loop with sea swirls , i love tons of flow , i would buy the best skimmer you can afford, glasscages make custom tanks

[NaCl_H2O]

So many questions, so little time ... You are doing the right thing, "research and planning", but don't get stuck on anything. You will need to change some things mid-stream, and even after you think you are done.

Not much time to answer you Q's now, but I'll take a stab later. Also I will reinforce the idea of seeing other systems, that really helped when I was planning mine. Not just for good ideas, but also for the "Oh, so that's how that works ... think I will reconsider".

[::pete::]

I will definitely have to agree with seeing other systems even if they are smaller than what you have planned ... you never know!!

[matt]

I'd consider getting a few more books; Shimek "The Coral Reef Aquarium" and the Calfo books come to mind. I'm with Gary on the calcium reactor instead of endless supplements, and you'll want to think about your entire plumbing circuit before starting, as it will affect your tank selection and drilling, stand construction, etc. For a tank of this size, you almost need a work room behind the tank for all the equipment. Some sort of reliable auto top-off is practically a must for a system this size, as is figuring out some way to deal with the moisture you'll be releasing into your house; at least 5 gallons/day, and realistically as much as 10.

I'm building a big skimmer for another MAAST member with a system of this size; if you want details you can PM me.

Scanning your list, just a couple of things come to mind; first, you can probably do better than the iwasaki 6.5K bulbs. There are some great performing 10K bulbs out there that will produce a more pleasing color and lower your reliance on actinic support. Second, think about a 240V circuit for your tank; you'll save money in the long run. Third, while it's nice to think about livestock this early one, plan on having your tank up and running for a while with just sand and rock, preferably a few months while the rock matures and you can build up a good population of sand bed animals. Then, you really have to plan you livestock as an eco-system and make sure you don't get animals that are not compatible. This is not as easy as it sounds.

Sounds fun! I hope you have some money in the bank; maybe you should put some away that you can't get at now before it magically disappears!

[fx300]

I must also agree checking other systems is the way to go, people here are very knowledgeable and can help you answer most of your questions. Meeting people can also save you time and money by hopefully stopping you from making the mistakes many of us have done. Good luck on your system!

Fabian
Brownsville
P.S.
Get ready for your new light bill!

[tangz]

[quote="scuba_steveo"] Anyway, if you can make it down to SA I will tell you who's setups you need to see.

Scuba_steveo

I appreciate the offer. I will be planning a trip this fall down your way. Well before I do I will get with you. I would love to see some set-ups personally. Thanks for the invite.

[tangz]

Also, know where you are going to put it. I ended up using mine as a room divider. If I had made that decision ahead of time I would have had the glass and overflows build differently.

Have Dan Parks build your sump, refugium, overflow covers, etc.... Basically anything acrylic. He does great work and is a great guy.
Get a Lowe's and Home Depot card. Get high limits. Go and meet the guys in plumbing and electrical. Have dinner with them. Meet the family. You will see more of them than you own family. (Just kidding, but not much.)
Well, that my 1.765 cents worth. Feel free to ask me anything. If I don't know the answer, I will make it up. ;)

John

Thanks for the info.

I have a nice little corner in the family room. The tank will fit with the back right corner in the corner of the room. The wall to the right is a closet that has access from the hallway. I plan to put all my stuff in here to kkeep down on the noise and heat factor. Now to convinve the wife I need one of her junk closets.

I do need to get with Dan Parks about a refugium. I have been talking with Jeremy @ Redmondreef. His design is the best I have seen to date. He is working with me to design a larg enough refuge for my system. Sadly he is no longer in business as redmondreef.com, but still does consulting work. So I do need to get in touch with Dan.

I am already understanding credit card limits. I have resisted adding up the equipment costs as I look for what I want.

Thanks for the advice.

[tangz]

I think everything was pretty much covered except the depth of the sand bed. I would go deeper, at least 4-5", especiallt in a tank that deep.

Lights depend on what corals or clams you are going to keep. MH and VHO actinic is prbably the way to go IMO. Use a factor of >100 watts per square foot as a starting point for planning purposes for SPS.

Look at a fairly small flow through your sump and fuge and do the majority of the tank flow going through your closed loop.

For a tank that size with SPS you need to look at something like a calcium reactor for supplements.

Scratch iodine from the list.

On the sand bed, I didn't factor in the size of the tank. Origionally I was looking at a 250 gallon tank and everything I read says "I wish I had a bigger tank". So when I upgraded size, I forgot the sand. Thanks

Nice point on the flow through the refuge/skimmer. What flow do you recommend through these vs. the closed loop. I have read that you want the tank to process through 1.5 - 2 times an hour. Iws this still a good rule for the refuge/skimmer with the closed loop?

Thanks for the confirmation on the calcium reactor. What brand / size flow should I be looking at?

Even if I want to have some pistol shrimp with my gobies I do not need iodine? Do the salt mix and other stuff have enough iodine for them? I know iodine can be trouble if too much is input.

Thanks GaryP for the input.

[tangz]

but don't get stuck on anything. You will need to change some things mid-stream, and even after you think you are done.

Also I will reinforce the idea of seeing other systems, that really helped when I was planning mine. Not just for good ideas, but also for the "Oh, so that's how that works ... think I will reconsider".

I am trying to remain flexible on most stuff, but I really am stuck on a skimmer/refuge system with lots of life in the tank.

Does this mean you are on the tank tour this fall when I come down there for the tour? Hoping...

[tangz]

I'd consider getting a few more books; Shimek "The Coral Reef Aquarium" and the Calfo books come to mind. I'm with Gary on the calcium reactor instead of endless supplements, and you'll want to think about your entire plumbing circuit before starting, as it will affect your tank selection and drilling, stand construction, etc. For a tank of this size, you almost need a work room behind the tank for all the equipment. Some sort of reliable auto top-off is practically a must for a system this size, as is figuring out some way to deal with the moisture you'll be releasing into your house; at least 5 gallons/day, and realistically as much as 10.

...while it's nice to think about livestock this early one, plan on having your tank up and running for a while with just sand and rock, preferably a few months while the rock matures and you can build up a good population of sand bed animals. Then, you really have to plan you livestock as an eco-system and make sure you don't get animals that are not compatible. This is not as easy as it sounds.

I was looking up the books on google as I read your quote.

I have a large closet on an adjoining wall to the tank with the access from the hallway. I planned to put all the equipment here and vent it to the attic.

On an outo top off, can I use a RO/DI straight into the refuge for top off, or do I need to have a holding tank/mix area first?

I am going to be a good boy when dealing with livestock. I want the system up, running and stable before I even think about getting livestock. The only reason I listed the animals was for someone with experience to look at the list and see if I missed some compatibility issue with my choices. I also think I left the numbers low so a sI figure out what I am doing I can add more goodies.

[brewercm]

There's also another club closer to you that may have some info and systems you can take a look at www.razorbackreef.com.

I've never really checked out their site a lot but scanned through it a little. Sounds like you are well on your way and in the right direction.

[falcondob]

I have a nice little corner in the family room. The tank will fit with the back right corner in the corner of the room. The wall to the right is a closet that has access from the hallway. I plan to put all my stuff in here to kkeep down on the noise and heat factor. Now to convinve the wife I need one of her junk closets.

That sounds great! I did not have that luxury. There was really no wall that had unused space. It will be easy to convince your wife if you take her to a place where there is a big tank and the pumps and stuff are NOT in a separate room. Having said that, I would like to add to the chorus of people that say you should look at other people's tanks (especially big ones.) I wish I had done that. Man, I wish I had done that! If I had planned my plumbing better I could have saved lots of time and money. There are a billion options.

If you are going to get a glasscages' tank, please talk to me first about things to do and not do with them.

Oh yeah, forgot to add this in. Remember, the tank alone will weigh over 900 pounds. Add stand, hood, equipment, salt, and water (at about 8 lbs per gallon) and I think you see where that is going.

Not sure how your house is set up, but remember the weight. These big tanks do not do well on carpet, hope you have tile or the like. Not to mention the floods, and, oh yes, it will happen.



I do need to get with Dan Parks about a refugium. I have been talking with Jeremy @ Redmondreef. His design is the best I have seen to date. He is working with me to design a larg enough refuge for my system. Sadly he is no longer in business as redmondreef.com, but still does consulting work. So I do need to get in touch with Dan.

Don't know Jeremy. However, Dan can build you just about anything you want. Like I said before, he does SUPERLATIVE work and is a GREAT guy! Heck, his own sump(s) and refugium are bigger than 99% of the tanks in SA. Same goes for ~pete~, great guy, great work.


I have resisted adding up the equipment costs as I look for what I want.

Don't resist it, unless you have unlimited funds. Even if you do have unlimited funds, you need to list the stuff you need, find the best prices, compare products, and prioritize them. It is a great way to organize.

I kept a spreadsheet of everything I spent. It is a SCARY :unsure document for sure, but I know what I paid for everything, from whom I bought it, and when I bought it. This has come in handy many, many times. It helped me get the things I NEEDED, before the things I WANTED. I can share a list of things I bought if you would like it.


Thanks for the advice.

Your welcome. I will share my experiences and limited knowledge with you anytime. I have done some good things, made some really stupid mistakes, and made some ignorant mistakes. You can PM me if you want to keep the discussion private.

For me, this is what MAAST is all about, a community for comradarie, information, and assistance. I think you have already seen a sample of the pool of info and expertise that is present here.

When I needed help moving my 300 gal, tank, and stand, over a dozen people offered help and they actually SHOWED UP! Be sure to get the legendary "MAAST Cart", it was a real back saver.

Setting up a new, big tank is kind of like a new baby. Somedays it is the most fun you ever had, somedays you are so mad you want to cry, and somedays you just cry then laugh. There have even been days when I threatened to put it outside and plant petunias in it. However, in the end, the fun far out weighs the bad.

Take care, post pics, and have a great time,
John "still going to Lowe's" Wilkes

[falcondob]

Be sure to get the legendary "MAAST Cart", it was a real back saver.

Opps, just saw the Texarkana. Hey, maybe you can be the "Keeper Of The Cart" for your area. Ask Steve (NaCL_H20) how he built it.

John