Astrea snails

[truck0000]

I have a question, I order a reef package from saltwater.com. They where doing fine the hermits got a few but now they are all dead (3 months later). My gravity got up to 1.028. Was wondering if this is what could have caused the die off or is it possible that the crabs got all 20? What else might have caused the die off? I need to replce these b/c algea is starting to creep back in.

My other question is how do i know if im overfeeding. I have a perc. clown, lawnmower blenny, 4 damsels, coral beauty, 2 cleaner shrimp, CBS, 30 assorted hermits. 2 emralds crabs, Seabea. I use a HOB cpr skimmer and HOB Filter. I do weekly wtaer changes and am still having problems with nitrate and amonia (sp?)

My tank is a 55 with 55 lbs of live rock and 3 inch CC bottom. Excuse the spelling errors i sux at typing.

[NaCl_H2O]

I would gues the Ammonia & Nitrate are getting the snails. Chances are the crabs are just scavenging the ones that are dead or are dying.

To check if it is feeding, don't feed anything for 48 hours and see if there is a difference? Are you feeding a large amount once/day, or small portions? What sems like "enough" food, can in reality be many time more than is needed.

All you are really feeding is the: perc. clown, 4 damsels, coral beauty, and CBS(?) - the rest are all scavengers that will eat algae or fish "poop" :sick

Also, sounds like you have a crushed coral (CC) substrate. If this is fairly large particle size, it is doing little for your nitrogen cycle, and possibly even making it MUCH worse. May want to consider removing (Bare Bottom), or going with a smaller particle size.

[pilot_bell777]

NaCl_H2O said it all......I would put my money on the water killing the snails and not the crabs.

I've had astrea snails for a long time mixed with large hermits and small hermits and they never messed with them. The only thing I ever had a hermit "KILL" was a Turbo Snail. Every time I would add a couple turbo snails, the crabs would get them in a week or two even when I provided the hermits with bigger shells. If you are having water problems, I would cut way back on feeding (go a couple days without and then just feed very small amounts for a little while) until you get your parmeters back under control. THen keep the feeding down to give your bacteria time to catch up.

Is this a new setup? IMO I would change out the substrate to sand or barebottom but that's just me. You'll have plenty of surface area for bacteria with the live rock.

Do you have any kind of floss filter media on the system like a canister filter or some other type of filter? That could easily raise your levels to bad.

What are your water conditions exactly?

[pilot_bell777]

Don't know how it double posted but I got rid of it! LOL

Something else to do is to look for anything that might be dead in the tank that you haven't noticed. Look everywhere! Vacumm the tank, get any uneaten loose food particles (Flake, shrimp, etc, etc) out of the tank.

[Polkster13]

Also, did you acclimate your snails? They are VERY sensitive to pH and salinty changes. If you just dropped them into your tank from the water that was in the bag that they were shipped in, that is what killed them. Normally, the pH in shipping bags is around 7.5 pH (if it was an overnight shipment) and if you do not SLOWLY drip acclimate them to your tank's pH which should be around 8.2 then you will end up killing all of your snails.

You need to test the pH of the water in your shipping bags against the pH in your tank. This will then give you an idea of how long you need to drip acclimate. I have a pH monitor that I use to compare between the two samples. Once they are even, then I introduce the snails into their new habitat. My loss rate on snails has dropped dramatically since I started using this method!

[pilot_bell777]

that's a good call too Polk....wasn't thinking along those lines. PH plus the amon and nitra being high without a REAL slow aclimate would doom them for sure. The salinity getting to 1.028 shouldn't be that big of a deal and probably didn't even bother them. ^_^

I used to use the float the bag, add a 1/2 cup of tank water to bag every hour for 4 or 5 hours, then dip, then add......when I got tired of loosing things I got a small bucket/tupperware dish and would put the bag water and animal in there, then run a tube with a pench clamp like those on IV bags, would start a syphon, adjust the drip to about 1 drip per second and then walk away and just let it drip away to bring the bag water up to your water standards....then empty a lot of it out and do it again. I even did this with stuff from pet stores when I knew the owners and their water conditions because any drematic change to any creature is a SHOCK to their systems and could easily cause too much stress. :sick

Food for thought! but you have to get your water stable if you are going to support life in your tank. Otherwise you going to spent a log of money on sushi and have a beatiful tank full of dead rock and algea! LOL Good Luck............ >_<


and don't be afraid to ask question even if you think they are simple.....that's how we all learned! :D

[pilot_bell777]

I was just thinking something else too...and i will quite writing long post! LOL


If this is a new setup and the cycle hasn't finished and then you put a load on it and you are doing water changes weekly; you are slowing the process down.

Can you give us some history and water conditions.?

[truck0000]

Thanks for the replies all.

My tank has been set up for 7 months. Didnt really know what i was doing and had large problems with algea. Hell i had trouble figuring out how to make my CPR Skimmer work. Had green hair algea and cyano all over the place. I started reading at saltwater.com figured out i shouldnt be using tap water (3 months in). I got so fustrated i pulled everything out of the tank did a 50% water change and scrub all the algea off the live rock and treated the tank with chem-clean (for cyano)(5months in)

Tank was fine for 5 weeks. 10 gal. water changes every week. ammonia 0, ph 7.9, nitrate.1 nitrate 10ppm, salinty1.023to 1.028 at the end. 3 weeks ago I droped the salinty from 1.028 to 1.023 by adding 8 gal. of ro/di water un salted. 2 weeks ago i noticed algea making a come back. I checked water and ammonia was at .50 and nitrates were at 40.
Diatoms were back and cyano was starting to grow again. Snails were slowly dying from 4 months till the present. I have one big one left saw him today.

I did drip accalmate them. I am going to change out the cc with sand ( not sure how deep). Could my tank be in a cycle?

[pilot_bell777]

Have you been doing water changes from day one?

The tap water explains somethings. You probably have something dead or food left over in the CC subst somewhere or under the rocks.

are you pulling a lot of skim in your skimmer?

While you are cutting the food off and then way back....cut the lights off for a couple days. That will help a little with the algea.

You can go to www.wetwebmedia.com and read until you are blue in the face.

Too much load too fast = trouble

Are you vacumming the subst and such? General rule of thumb is to not feed anything more that it can consume in a minute or two and it is better two feed several small meals a day then one big one. (kind of like us! LOL)

I wouldn't add a lot of chemicals personally (JMO) because with good maintenance you can take care of most problems that arise.

Do you have good flow in the tank?

I made the same mistake with Tap water when I started! LOL makes you wonder why the sell declorinator! LOL

I know some people that have been doing this way longer than me and have beautiful tanks and will argue until they are blue in the face about it being ok to use tap water...........sorry, not me! LOL

Here is what I would do....some might agree, some might argue JMO and what I have had luck with:

1) Stop feeding for a couple days
2) Kill the lights for a couple days
3) Vacumm everything! and then Vacumm it again
4) Water changes (Vacumm before every water change)
-Day One: Do a 50% water change
-Day three: Do a 30% water change
-Day five: Do a 20% water change
-Day seven: Do a 20% water change
-Weekly after that: 10 - 15% water change
5) Top the tank off daily
6) Turn off any floss media

1) After a couple days, start feeding little amounts one time a day and running the lights for 4 or so hours a day.
2) After a week or so has gone by, start feeding same amount twice a day and running the lights for 6 hours a day.
3) After a week or so has gone by, start feeding a little more two to three times a day and running the lights for regualar time each day.

During all this keep the tank topped off, continue to vacumm first and do water changes, make sure you get anything dead or extra food out as soon as you can, and check your water often. As you start feeding again...you really need to watch your water again. If you start to see a spike, cut back on feeding.

It very well could be that you are just over feeding and in cominataion with the tank still being young could be the cause.

and keep asking questions!

[CD]

PB - I disagree with turning out the lights for a few days...I'm guessing you are recommending this to help the algae issue? Turning off the lights is only going to put a "bandaid" on the problem, and once the lights are back on, the problem will return, if not get worse.

Rob - I would also be curious what you are using for water flow, and also the amount of gunk your skimmer is producing on a weekly basis...also, are you cleaning the skimmer once a week (dirty skimmers will not produce)? Also, what exactly do you feed your fish, and how much? IOW, if frozen - a whole cube? Half a cube? Do you vary the diet? How often do you clean the HOB filter? Sorry for all the questions, but a tank that has been operating for 7months should be stable by now.

IMO the first thing I would do w/b to get rid of that crushed coral substrate. I'm sure that is a large part of the problem. Bare bottom or deep sand bed is fine. If you go DSB, the recommended depth (by most) is around four inches. I would recommend against the *super* fine grain sand, as it doesn't do as good of a job denitrifying (compacts), and also, blows around the tank too easily with even minimal flow. The special grade reef sand will be great.

Anyway...
Replace the CC with either DSB or go BB...your choice. Just remember if you ever plan on having any inverts or fish that like DSBs, you will be limited in your choices if you choose BB. Either way, you are in for some work, as you'll need to remove the tank critters before you do this. Use the water that's in the tank for temporarily holding the critters, as you are going to need to do a large water change anyway...drain off about 50% of the water, put critters in this water making sure they have flow and whatever else you can do to make this temp. holding place comfy for them. Get as much of the algae out of your tank and off the LR as you can. Place sand bed (sounds like what you are leaning towards anyway), then refill tank with new salt water - make the SG slightly lower for the replacement water since your SG is high on the current tank water (maybe 1.023 to even out the rest of the water to aprox. 1.025)...the fresh SW should have been circulating with a pump from the day before in your mixing barrel. Oh - personally, I like to rinse the sand before using, as this cuts down on the "dirt cloud" you get from adding a sand bed. Now you've got your DSB in the tank, and 50% new water...time to let the sand storm calm - I would let it sit for about 12 hours or less depending on how murky the water got. After this, it's time to get some lights and circulation going...powerheads, skimmer, etc., maybe even use some floss to help catch the sand dust out of the water. Let that go for a few hours, then start acclimating the fish and other tank inhabitants to the "new" water. I would not feed any of the critters during all this.

After you accomplish all this, go ahead and feed - but not too much. Stick to your regular lighting regime so you won't stress the inhabitants any more than you already have. IMO you may want to seriously consider adding a refugium to your set up...you can go with a hang on 'fuge so you won't have to modify your system too much (sump and fuge would be better, but a hang on will help.) Keeping macro in this refusium will help keep your tank algae down, as the macro (Chaeto is nice) will compete for the nutrients as it grows, and greatly reduce your display algae problem. Make sure you have sufficient flow in the tank (via powerheads) so that there are not any "dead" spots in the tank, keep your skimmer clean and performing at it's best, do weekly water changes of about 10% volume...water top off (with RO/DI) should be done daily...especially with a smaller tank, as you don't want your salinity swings to be severe. With a DSB, you will need to either lightly "stir" the first inch of sand every couple of days manually, OR (better) get some nassarius snails and maybe a sand sifting star...they will maintain your DSB for you. Replenish your tank with the turbo snails and any other inverts you have recently lost. Last but not least, give yourself a BIG pat on the back for all the work you've done! ;)

W. :)

[truck0000]

What do you mean by floss media? I run a HOB filter with two blue charcol filters in it. Is this what you mean?
I ahve a rio 600 on the skimmer and HOB filter is 300gph. I also have a SIEO 820 running in it. Is this enough flow or should I add another SEIO 820?
Thanks for the advice and all the help
Robert

[pilot_bell777]

CD....the reason I suggested to turn off the lights was for the algea but the problem that we are addressing is not the algea but the water conditions. The main suggestions were to get the water back under control and figure out what was causing the issues thus all the suggestions I provided him in how to do that. :P

If you get the water under control you get the algea under control as well. The lights was just to attack the algea a little at the same time and to work the entire problem instead of just half of it.

Treat for a solution and not the symptoms so attack all fronts.

If he was writing about algea only, then I wouldn't suggest the lights because you are right, it is a bandaid.....but slowing the algea growth down while working on the water helps all. ^_^

If it was an algea question....I would still be saying attack the water conditions but the turning off the lights does slow the algea growth while he is working on the water problem.

If you don't attack all the problems with a solution instead of a treatment; then his next post on here will be what can he do about the algea without dumping tons of chemicals in the water. :sick

I do agree that he needs to switch out the CC to a sandbed but a lot of poeple run CC and maintain good water. If he wants to keep the CC then he can.....that isn't a "Must Do" and that was all I was trying to list. The CC or the Sandbed is his choice. Personally, I agree I would switch out to a sand bed but he can get his water back with the CC and then maintain the system.

You have to look at the whole picture. Sorry, I guess that is the Engineer coming out in me. 8)

CD....You are making is sound like he should take everything out, empty the remaining water, change subst, add new water, then acclimate and add..............wouldn't this be almost like setting up a tank from scratch and then dumping fish and livestock in? I personally wouldn't change the substr or anything until after you get the water under control and managing the system. The system is already under stress and changing everything to fix something that can be fixed with a little work is just going to stress an already stressed tank. He needs to get in the habbit of good habbits instead of changing and stressing the system everytime something gets off. I wouldn't want my doctor to give me a heart transplant when all he had to do was tell me to exercise.

You can turn the lights off or you can leave them on....but either way if you are going to keep a system....you have to learn to keep good water quality or you will be bald from pulling your hair out with in a year.

7 months should be faily stable but it is still an infant tank that anything could go wrong in and if he has been trying all sorts of things to fix issues then the tank is probably very fragile right now.

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Filter Media would be things like the pre made filters that you can get at any pet store or Walmart for a "Filter". The problem with these is that they collect gunk and can easily raise your levels and keep them there. I kept a Emperior BIO Wheel on mine but I never used the floss media. I would use the Reef Carbon in the carbon plates that you can change the carbon and run only carbon and then when I wasn't running carbon, I would stick small peices of LR in it and let it run. Floss media looks like cotton almost. You can run it, but I wouldn't while you are working to get your water back. If you want to run it, buy two sets and switch them every week and clean the other ones that you take out real good.

Food for thought! LOL....guess that was a bad analogy considering that the problem probably started with over feeding! :D

[GaryP]

OK, guys, let me really muddy the water here and jump in.

The cause of any algae problem is that more nutrients are going into the tank then is being pulled out. It's what chemical engineers call mass balance. More is going in then is coming out. The excess waste is being consumed by the algae and resulting in the bloom. Your HOB biowheel system is not adequate for the bioload you currently have in the tank. The Live Rock in your system is very helpful in this regard. Here are generally the ways you can reduce bioload in the system, but because you lack a sump most of these are not going to be easy. I would encourage you to look into adding at least a 20 or 30 gal sump/fuge and overflow as your next major improvement. Your system is basically designed for fresh water with the skimmer added. Here are some ideas based on reducing the residual waste levels in your tank.

Skimming - Obviously your CPR skimmer is barely getting the job done. They require a lot of tuning and are generally not practical for a mid sized tank. I would suggest looking into a better skimmer that can be placed in the a sump. Talk to Pete on here about building you one. He does excellent work at a reasonable cost.

Chemical Filtration: You are currently doing some chemical filtration with the filter cartridges in the HOB biowheel on your tank. Unfortunately, the small amount of carbon in these is quickly exhausted in a high waste system and they are not usually changed out as often as they need to be. With a sump system it would be easy to build a carbon unit from PVC that would be more effective, as well as less expensive in the long run. This carbon needs to be changed out frequently.

In addition to the carbon, a phosphate absorber such as Phosguard would be helpful in reducing the phosphates which are probably the main cause of your algae problems. This can be run with the carbon in the carbon unit in the sump. In the mean time you can open up one of the filter cartrides on your HOB with a razor blade and replace the carbon with phosguard or a similar product. This is a fairly small amount and would need to be changed frequently.

Water changes: I would recommend regular weekly water changes of no more than 10%. Larger water changes can have a negative effect in that they make large changes in the water chemistry. Water changes are actually fairly ineffective in reducing nutrient loads as the nutrient input is usually larger than what is removed through water changes.

Physical Filtration: Again, your filter cartrides are currently working towards this. However, remember that the stuff that is filtered out is going to decay and release nutrients back into the water. Physical filters should be cleaned or replaced at least once a week. I use filter socks that are changed out once a week. This is a means to export nutrients in the form of suspended detritus and some algaes.

Siphoning: This is a means of removing detritus and excess food from the tank but I believe a good population of detritivores is a more effective means of reducing this problem. I do siphon when I do water changes but I am only able to get to the stuff that is available to me on the sand bed and on the exposed surfaces of the live rock. A lot more is trapped in the live rock and not easily siphoned. I like the small blue legs hermits for this and nassarius snails. However I wouldn't add any snails until you get your nitrates under control. Adding more hermits would be my recommendation now. Up to 2-3 per gallon is probably good. They are also good algae eaters and will help there. Also try to siphon or mechanically remove any agae or cyano you can. You are exporting nutrients when you do that too.

Nitrates: The reason your nitrates are high is that you are not effectively removing waste from the system before it decays to form nitrate and once it gets there you do not have the bacterial population to process it (denitirfication) into the end products of the nitrogen cycle (nitrogen gas). This results in a buildup of nitrate. Removing it before decay is going to be by using activated carbon and skimming. The bacteria that do denitrification require a low oxygen environment. This is where a deep sand bed comes in. I prefer a deep sand bed made up of at least 3-4 inches of sugar fine sand, topped with at least 1/2-1" of special grade to prevent sand from moving around. Inoculating your tank with a bacterial culture such as "Bio-Spira" after putting in the sand bed is very helpful. From what I have read, Bio-Spira is the only culture that contains the specific de-nitrifying bacteria.

Algae grazers: As I said before, hermits are probably the way to go for now. You can add snails later. I prefer nassarius for detritus control and cerith and nerite for hair algae & cyanobacteria control. However, be aware that snails are very sensitive to high nitrates so you have some work to do before you can add them. The nitrates are probably the cause of your current snail die off.

Lights: Leave your lights on. The algaes will just shut down without the lights and waste levels will just go up further without any active algae to absorb them. They'll just sit there waiting for the lights to come back on and take off when they do. They are more paitent then you are. Do keep track of the age of your lights. Old bulbs can sometimes encourage nuisance algae growth. Most fluorescent bulbs need to be replaced at least every six months. Besides, when the lights are off, algaes are using up oxygen and have a negative effect on oxygen levels.

Flow: Having good, vigourous flow is helpful in controlling cyano. They like areas with low oxygen a lot of detritus buildup. By moving the water you increase oxygen to all parts of the tank and help keep the detritus and excess food stirred up so that it can be filtered.

Refugium: A good refugium with a healthy population of macro algaes can be very helpful. They are going to compete with the nuisance algaes for nutrients that you are trying to control.

OK, I just ran out of steam. That's enough for now.

[pilot_bell777]

OK....well I guess what I was saying wasn't read to cleary because what you wrote is almost what I was intending. The only part I disagree on is the water changes and the lights.

The idea that I was trying to present was to cut the lights to cut the algea and then continue with multiple water changes to get the % of nutr. down in the water and when you cut the lights back on there wouldn't be enought for the algea to bloom again and then algea clean up would be much less then letting it go.

The mass water change suggestion as stated in my earlier post was provided to me by the experts of WetWebMedia a good while back and as they stated that sense you benificial bacteria lives on surfaces not "In the Water" that you are not hurting the chemistry of you water as much as people would like to think and that they tested this technic multiple times with great sucess. The even had an animated image explaining the whole concept and how to do it. To quote them exactly......if you are in a garage full of car exahust would you want someone to open the garage on 10% and then wait?

I have personally used the mass water change technic provided by WWM and it was successful without any side effects on my tank what so every.

People have been running Salt water tanks for decades withouth skimmers, sumps, refugiums, etc, etc...sucessfully. The tank I just purchased didn't even have a Skimmer on it and it is running fine! (Of course when I set it up I am adding a skimmer) LOL

He can do it with what he has but I do agree that if his skimmer isn't pulling enough, then he needs to find a successful way to keep the nutr. out of the water or get a better skimmer. We can tell him to buy this buy that, change this out change that out but he may not have the money to do that and he can get his water back with what he has.

Like I said on the last post about the lights.....turn them off or leave them on, it doesn't matter I was only suggesting this to hit it all at the same time.

Yes the nutr in the water will increase because the algea isn't eating it, but that is what the mass multiple water changes are for to get rid of the nutr. that is causing the problems and get his system back in order and to a place that he can begin to "Keep" the nutr. down.



I am sure that we all have our ways of doing things and we all feel that we are giving him the right suggestions. The only reason that I continue is because experts provided me this exact solution I provided him and it has worked for me wonderfully in the past and I didn't have to run out and buy sumps/fuges, new skimmers, change the entire system out, etc, etc.....and at the time I did not have a sump or fuge, was runnig a HOB skimmer on a 75 gall and did it very sucessfully.

Yes comparing this setup to more advanced setups is like comparing having a cell phone to not having a phone at all. People (tanks) can make it find without the cell phone (I wish more people would). To be 100% honest...I am very glad that I did it "Old School" in the begining because it taught me a TON more and helped me to really understand what was going on in my tank which in turn allows me to troubleshoot and fix issues that arrise sooner instead of guessing and messing. Now I'm into sumps, good skimmers, fuges, etc, etc like the rest of us but not having that stuff is not going to kill his tank.

The entire point to all my post was there is too much "Bad" in the water and he needs to get it out! It's that simple! and if we like or agree with his setup or not, it is his and it will work...........he just has to find out what does and does not work for his setup.

We keep arguing about what he should do and we are going to scare the guy right back into doing something else and not enjoying this wonderful hobby!



So to break it down real simple...........To much bad in water, need to get it out. Rob, figure out how you want to get it out and do it. "bottomline"

[GaryP]

I don't disagree that the large water changes will reduce the nutrients. The problem with water changes is that unless you address the cause of the nutrients in the first place, they will just buildup again. No one can afford the time or money to do daily water changes forever. Yes, the water changes are a good quick fix, but I was trying to take a longer view.

I was not talking about water changes having a negative effect on the bacteria. The bacterial population is probably the hardiest thing in the aquarium. There are other things in an aquarium that may be negatively impacted by such rapid changes in water chemistry. For example, shrimp and crabs are sensitive to rapid changes in alkalinity.

I'm sure your system runs very well. However, no two systems are alike and no two systems have similar bioloads or capability to process waste. If there was a magic formula for how to set up and manage a system, I'm sure we would all be doing it.

[pilot_bell777]

I agree Gary.....no two systems are alike but buy a lot of extras at this point and changing the entire system out is not going to fix is problem because in three months without good maintenance even with the best skimmer, sump, fuge, sandbed, etc.....it is going to be doing the same thing.

My suggestions were long term as well.

Day One: Do a 50% water change
-Day three: Do a 30% water change
-Day five: Do a 20% water change
-Day seven: Do a 20% water change
These help "Fix" the problem and delute the nutr. in the water


Weekly after that: 10 - 15% water change This helps Long Term keep the nutr. Deluted)


During all this keep the tank topped off, continue to vacumm first and do water changes, make sure you get anything dead or extra food out as soon as you can, and check your water often. As you start feeding again...you really need to watch your water again. If you start to see a spike, cut back on feeding and this is long term, general maintenance of the system.

When I did my big water change using this method....the only negative effects on chemistry that I had was my PH and Alk dropped but not even enough to worry about. You are not "Replacing" all your water doing this and that is why you do it over several days and not all together. You do the big one, let it sit and things level out, then do a smaller one, let it set and things level out, and so on and so on.

I had an RBTA, a CBB, a Powder Blue(just to name the delicate ones) tons of crabs (hermits, emerald, etc), several cleaner shrimp, and 2 fire shrimp and I didn't loose a single one of them. In fact....you could have sworn that they looked and acted happier! :P

and that brings us right back to the bottomline.....too much bad in water, get it out....(LONG TERM)find way to keep it out

You and CD just keep telling him all the "Expensive" methods when it doesn't have to be. I agree that "Long Term" he should invest in a fuge, sump, better skimmer, etc.....but that isn't the issue right now. The issue is his water quality. Yes you are right...no two tanks are the same but the basics and the general knowledge works for everyone and every tank. Yes fuges, sumps, good skimmers, etc are better for our tanks but we buy them to decrease our work load. You can keep the same water quality without that stuff as you can with.........just means ALOT more work and staying on top of things.

All the suggestions here are great and "ALL" of them probably need to be done at one time or another. I was only focusing on getting his water back to good without "Overstressing" an already fragile system.

His setup is VERY close to my first setup and I remember all the pain and work it took to keep it running good, but I did it......thus the reason that NOW I run skimmers, sumps, fuges, DSBs, etc.....

It's all good.........

Long Term::::: Maintenance, Maintenace, Maintenance......
Solutions to help with maintenance::::::Sumps, Refugiums, Sand Bed, Better Skimmer, etc.
Problem Now:Bad Water:::::::Solution:Get bad out of water!

He has to make the choice in how to get to the solution.

[GaryP]

Day One: Do a 50% water change
-Day three: Do a 30% water change
-Day five: Do a 20% water change
-Day seven: Do a 20% water change

By my calculations, the water change scheme you showed would reduce the nutrient concentration by 78%. That does bnot take into account any additional nutrient input during the time you were doing the water changes.

I spent a lot of time in my monstor post talking about exporting nutrients but I didn't take much time about importing nutrients through food, water, die-off, additives, etc. Obviously, limiting inputs is just as important as maximizing outputs.

As I mentioned earlier, its all about mass balance. What leaves the tank has to equal what enters the tank. Obviously, technology is not the only solution but the system here is pretty much minimalist for that size and that bioload. Some of the solutions I provided are very inexpensive. I felt that I gave a pretty wide range of bebefical options that he could try. Some involve a very small amount of money. With the exception of the skimmer and overflow, none were more then $25 dollars. most can probably bought used here fairly inexpensively.

Unfortunately a lot of newbies get stuck with a system that is not really designed for saltwater by LFS or pet store employees that are not that knowledgeable or only interested in making a sale.

I guess these sort of issues all come down to waht the person wants out of his aquarium. Does he want to be a hobbyist that is interested in improving and upgrading his aquarium or does he just want to "keep fish."

[truck0000]

Man thanks for the great info all. I am just trying to keep this tank goig for 2 or 3 more months while i get all the proper equipment together to do it right on the 75 GAL RR that i bought. It will have a sump, DSB, and a much better skimmer. Ill have allsorts of new questions then.

Yes i did not get the proper info from the LFS that i used. He said tap water would be fine and that all i needed was the cpr skimmer and live rock. GROSS UNDERSTATEMENTS IN MY OPINION. I havent been back to him sense i got fustrated and started looking on the web for info.

If i read correctly the consensus that i should take the filter cartridge out of my HOB. lightly feed and weekly 10% water changes. I am just trying not to lose anymore livestock while i get the other tank up and running. No more snails for now and buy some more hermits. I do siphon the CC every water change.

I will say this, when i bought my 75 from TIMFOUNTAIN he took the time to walk me through set up by showing me his tank. It really looked complicated withe the sump and fuge plumbing and all. I think i have gotten my self into a big undertaking to do it fight. Tim was great BTW.

THANKS FOR ALL THE ADVICE

[pilot_bell777]

I wish you the best of success.....

Find what works for you......

[GaryP]

You are quite welcome, that's what we are here for.

I am not sure what you mean by taking the filter out of your HOB. I would recommend changing them regularly or perhaps putting some phosphate absorber into one of the chambers of it. IMO the carbon filters don't get changed often enough by most people.

What you went through with the LFS is not unusual at all. Don't feel bad. A lot of us, me included, started off with a tank that was not well designed for the what we were trying to do with it. That's one of the reasons MAAST was formed, to create a source of information above and beyond what is available at the LFS. Sometimes you will see us get into some "discussions" because of slight differences in approach but I think from these discussions you will learn even more. We may disagree on the minor points, but the big picture is pretty similar. That was the case here.

[NaCl_H2O]

Good luck, and by all means post pics of the 75 as you get it going.

Keep asking questions, that's why you joined MAAST :)

[NaCl_H2O]

A lot of us, me included, started off with a tank that was not well designed for the what we were trying to do with it.

I think Gary's wife called it "THE DEATH ZONE" :D

[garagebrian]

Hey all,

I think everyone has covered how to help the tank recover very well. Good luck on the 75RR, I am running a 75RR and love the size and aquascaping over the 55.

I want to add just a little bit on the cleanup crew options for long term maintenance. I would avoid the sand sifting sea star, it will starve in a 55 or 75 gallon tank. They shouldn't be kept in less than a 120 and probably not even kept at all. How do I know? I starved mine in my 55 7 years ago and then read up on them.

I would avoid all astrea or "turbo" snails and margarita snails unless you know they come from warm water. Most are cold water species and slowly die in our tanks. A LFS employee telling you he/she is SURE they come from warm water doesn't count :) Astreas from Florida are usually pretty good.

The problem with advice on snails is that each species has somewhat different dietary requirements. So while a "nerite snail will feed on filamentous and film-forming cyanobacteria, and filamentous green algae" - other snails may prefer not to (the full article on nerites by j. sprung is linked below ).

Dr Ron has some good articles:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-06/rs/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-07/rs/index.php

Nassarius Snails for cleaning up excess food:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010410073108/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/library/articleview2.asp?Section=&RecordNo=166

Nerite Snails:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/invert.htm

Lots of info huh?

Basically:
Best:
Stomatella
Collonista
Trochus (warm water species)
Cerith
Nerite

OK:
Astrea (warm water species only)
Nassarius (only good at cleaning up excess food, you don't need too many)

Bad:
cold water Astrea
margarita
big turbos (knock over corals and even rocks)
sand sifting sea stars
Bumblebee snails (predator on some clams and snails, won't help with algae at all)

Feel free to ask any questions. I've also heard that hermits will eventually kill a DSB, snails, irritate corals, etc. I'm not fully convinced of this, but I only have a couple in my sump now. With the wide range of good snails above, I'm going to try no hermits.

B.