Ready for another salt debate?

[NaCl_H2O]

I just love causing trouble :skeezy

Had to do a water change this weekend and needed more salt - I have been using Oceanic in the past.

so ... I bought a bucket of IO and did a 80g water change. I may be imagining things, but I think several things look better, including better SPS polyp extension. I'll keep going wih the IO for a coupe of months and see what happens?

What's the diff between normal IO & IO "Reef Crystals" ... Ca level probably? I used regular IO this time.

[CD]

I just love causing trouble


LMAO...yep, that's you - Steve the rabble rouser! :lol
We've always used IO. Last time we purchased salt, Chris bought a bucket of Oceanic too - we are going to try mixing the two and see what happens. We'll keep you posted on that one...LOL

Wendy :)

[alexwolf]

Reef Crystals is a lot more expensive. If I remember correctly, it costs $15-20 per bucket more than regular IO.

[JimD]

$35.95 from Drs.F&S. I use it exclusively and love it. Very consistant from batch to batch, well worth the extra bucks as far as Im concerned.

[captexas]

Dang Steve, I guess the TDS/RODI discussion got too slow? lol :)

Well, as much as I hate to give into the dark side of the force, I am leaning towards changing back to IO from the Oceanic I have been using since it came out. Just too many weird things happening lately to my tank. :roll

[NaCl_H2O]

Dang Steve, I guess the TDS/RODI discussion got too slow? lol :)

Yea, my next post will be about BB vs DSB :unsure Gotta keep the site active!

[alexwolf]

35.95 from Drs.F&S. I use it exclusively and love it. Very consistant from batch to batch, well worth the extra bucks as far as Im concerned.

How much is shipping?

[JimD]

I dunno, how much can YOU get it for? lol

[captexas]

Steve - Here is a description of Reef Crystals that explains a bit more about it over the regular salt.

Reef Crystals¨ enriched blend sea salt contains extra levels of calcium, vitamins, and selected trace elements. Developed for use in sophisticated reef aquariums, it was the first enriched sea water formulation available to aquarium hobbyists. The inclusion of important components at concentrations greater than in natural seawater assures extended availability of substances that are assimilated and depleted especially quickly in thriving reef aquariums. A special additive helps to detoxify excess heavy metals, such as copper, that are often found at elevated levels in domestic water supplies. Reef Crystals¨ salt provides superior dissolvability and is compatible with all marine aquariums. We use only the most sophisticated biological and chemical test methods to develop and refine our formulas, and Reef Crystals¨ sea salt is no exception. Every batch is carefully analyzed to guarantee composition, consistency, and uniformity

[captexas]

According to their info, shipping on a bucket of Reef Crystals at $35.99 would be $8.99 plus the $13.60 for the heavy weight, so $22.59 shipping for one 160g bucket.

[alexwolf]

i pay around $38 per bucket, cost. Doesnt make any sense for me to carry it here.

[captexas]

Alex - What is it with your mark up then? Ordering it online is $35.99 plus $22.59 for shipping, total of $58.58 (Dr. Foster/Smith price)! I'm not sure what the other LFS charge for it though.

[NaCl_H2O]

I saw some at Alamo, just glanced at it and got distrated. I thought it was $39.99, but that couldn't be right, must have been $49. I'll check it out tomorrow.

[alexwolf]

thats why i dont carry it :) havent had any requests for it, and it doesnt make sense to tie up my capital on something that doesnt sell too fast.

[Tim Marvin]

Just use Oceanic and you won't have to worry about all that other junk...LOL...

[Richard]

OMG! Is it possible to come back from the dark side? LOL

[NaCl_H2O]

OMG! Is it possible to come back from the dark side? LOL

LMAO ... only time (and polyp extension) will tell ;)

Here is a wierd observation: Has anyone else noticed when digging Oceanic out of the barrel, and you get a bunch on your hands, it feels warm, kinda burns? ... didn't get that from the IO :unsure

[Richard]

Here is a wierd observation: Has anyone else noticed when digging Oceanic out of the barrel, and you get a bunch on your hands, it feels warm, kinda burns?


Dangerous things on the dark side there is.

[Brett Wilson]

I'd like to see growth over X amount of time in a salt debate... but that requires going to a lot of trouble, and lots of testing.

Having said that, I am an old IO user that recently switched to Oceanic for fun. After I use up my still mostly-full bucket of oceanic (only have a nano at the moment) I might switch back to IO, also just for fun. But it still wont be a good test because i'll likely be in the middle of a complete tank transition at the same time.

[captexas]

Yeah, it's hard to do a long-term test, but I'm suprised no one has any real published comparison data. Borneman and MARSH had started putting together a salt test, but there hasn't been anything posted on there in over a month.

[Thunderkat]

I heard you had to get IO and Oceanic and blend them together in 1:1 ratio to get the perfect salt.

From what I have been seeing from everybody though IO is the favorite out there.

[alton]

If you mixed IO and OC wouldn't you get Kent? (I love arguments, thats why I have been married for 20 + years)

[TexasTodd]

Z28power needs to pipe in with his results from a private message he sent a chemist reefing guru!

Jose??? You around?

I got chewed on a couple months back when he was having problems and I wrote "IMO/IME don't use that salt---Oceanic" He has since told me he got a response back--non local--chewing his *** for "using such a known to be inconsistent salt mix".

I don't want to quote incorectly Jose, but I believe this is close to the reply you got.

Yes?

TT

[z28pwr]

Here is the email that Todd is reffering to. It was sent to Bob Fenner when I was having my problem with High Alk and Low PH, the email is below and his response is in bold.


Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:40:24 -0700 (PDT)
Water parameters out of whack
Hello Crew, how you guys doing today?
<Mighty fine, thanks>
Well I decided to go back into the aquarium hobby after being away for
about a year and everything had being going well until I started
having some problems with my PH.
This is what happened. I filled up my 380 gallon aquarium with some
Oceanic salt and let it mix in for a week, then I added some crushed
coral and 200+ lbs of Live Rock. I noticed that PH was low ~ 7.7, therefore
I started adding super buffer dkh and brought it up to around 8.2 but
it started going back down thefore I kept adding Kent super buffer DKH
until I had poured 2 pounds of Super Buffer DKH in a weeks time and my
PH was still hovering around 8.0 - 8.1 . Believing that my PH monitor
was off I tested the PH with another test kit which showed the same
result, that's when I decided to test the other parameters, which are:
<Mmm, the LR is "settling in" and you started with a bunk, inconsistent
brand of salt mix>
Temp 79.4 F
SG 1.021
CA 330
PH 8.0
AK 16+ DKH Went off the Salifert Scale.
<Yes...>
WHAT in the world, how can I have a 16+ DKH and an 8.0 PH .
<Surprising that you have such a large system and lack of understanding
of basic chemistry (pun intended)... look at the ingredients of the
Kent products... realize you have a situation... with the decomposition of
the LR... that is exhausing the carbonate/bicarbonate... but not the
hardness... Voila! Low pH, high hardness>
I'm truely lost and I know I should have tested the ALK before I kept
adding buffer, but I did not have an ALK test kit available and I
figured hey it's alot of water and Oceanic salt is known for having High
Calcium and low PH. At this point I'm probably going to do a 80 gallon
water change with Instant Ocean Salt unless you guys have other ideas.
<All sorts of ideas... yours will work.>
Thanks.
<Bob Fenner>

Kinda hard on me don't you think so ;) .

[captexas]

That's interesting. I have the opposite going on in my tank, my pH is around 8 (according to Salifert test kit) and my calcium is ok, but my Alk is very low! Even with not running my calcium reactor for awhile it was still low. I need to go buy some IO or other brand of salt and see if things change in my tank.

[don-n-sa]

Why is it that the smarter people get they start to talk in riddles??? I have noticed that Dr. Ron on RC does it , Calfo does it, shoot Borneman does it and now reading this e-mail I get frustrated because I think I know what he is saying but he just does not speak clearly.

I mean say this quote in your head and close your eyes and picture Yoda talking to Luke about learnig to use the force....hmmm "All sorts of ideas...yours will work" hmmm

Don't forget to use Yoda's voice :lol

[NaCl_H2O]

Don, I agree, why do folks need to use little cute phrases & riddles


"may all your leaks be slow and easy to fix"
Gotcha :P

Well, my system continues to improve, did another 80g IO water change last night - but I won't declare it "better" for at least 60 days!

[captexas]

While he may talk in riddles, "bunk, inconsistant brand of salt mix" is pretty straight forward! lmao

[JimD]

Why use a product with so much controversy surrounding it? Sounds like a huge risk to me... One person says its great, another says its garbage... Skrew that. lol

[alexwolf]

I had terrible results when i first opened the store. IO seems to make everything better :)

[captexas]

LOL, yeah, but there was a controversy over IO there for awhile. Seem to remember something about a "bad batch"? That was one of the big reasons so many people jumped on the Oceanic band wagon so quickly. Oh well, I think as with most new products it takes an extended time period to really see how it performs.

[NaCl_H2O]

I don't think Oceanic has been inconsistent at all! I have gone through MANY buckets of it (at least 12?) since I setup my system and parameters are stable, just maybe not ideal. Who knows about trace elements?

Time will tell for me. I still like how well Oceanic dissolves over IO, but the results (or lack of) will decide for me.

[JimD]

Thats why I dont use IO either!

[NaCl_H2O]

Thats why I dont use IO either!

Not to be "inconsistent" but I am going to pick up abucket of Reef Crystals next :P

BTW - One advantage for me with IO (or RC) is the 160g bucket - exactly two water changes for me :D

[Tim Marvin]

I must have really good luck. I use Oceanic, drip kalk, and dose Magnesium. I can produce probably 100 frags per month out of an 80 gallon tank, maybe my thinking is wrong and this isn't very many frags. Maybe I should change back to IO so I can get better growth.......Hmmmmmm.........Nope, good luck with your salt debate. I'll just stick to what I am doing.

[JimD]

"I'll just stick to what I am doing"
That right there is the key, if its working, keep dong it.

[NaCl_H2O]

FYI - 160g bucket of reef crystals at Alamo Aquatics was $49.99, bought one to see what I think.

BIG FYI - Their 160g buckets of IO were on sale for $34.99 :o

[captexas]

Cool, let us know how the Reef Crystals works out. I just picked up a bucket of IO at Alex's this afternoon and am going to do my first water change tomorrow.

[NaCl_H2O]

FWIW, I tested fresh mixtures of IO & IO Reef Crystals. Previously posted similar info for Oceanic but can't find it - I think it was Ca=600+, and dKH=8.

IO (Regular)SG = 1.025
PH = 7.85
Ca = 380
dKH = 12.0IO Reef CrystalsSG = 1.025
PH = 7.70
Ca = 450
dKH = 12.8YMMV

[JimD]

Youre probably not gonna notice any difference at all, its the long term results that got me hooked. Youll find that RC dissolves better when you aerate the mix.

[TheCampbells]

Does anyone use Red Sea Salt?

[captexas]

Well, it's been two or three weeks since I did my first water change using IO instead of Oceanic. While I haven't seen any miracle improvements in corals or anything, I have tested and found my calcium to be up to 470 and my kH/Alk to be at 6.7/2.4. While the kH/Alk is still low, it is better than what I was finding with the Oceanic and I expect those number to come up some more after doing my second water change today.

[Richard]

Well I just hate to see a good debate die :)


Richard, I remember seeing you post that you don't like Oceanic, but don't remember the purpose. Care to elaborate in this thread to give us a refresher? ;)

This pretty much sums up why I don't care for it....
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=616926


BTW, the price increase on oceanic has finally begun. Better stock up quick or not ;)

[alton]

Richard you really couldn't sleep could you? I hope you didn't stay up worrying about the Spurs today? Go Kent salt and oh ya Spurs too!

[Mindypin]

Hi! I'm new here, but I've been lurking about reading all the excellent information here for a few weeks now. I just wanted to pass along a great sale I came across while checking out the prices at Drs. Foster & Smith while reading the thread here about salt mixes. Wow -- they have Reef Crystals on sale for $32.39 and IO for $28.79, and they are waiving the heavy weight charge during the sale. I don't know how long the deal lasts, but it seems like a good time to stock up!


$35.95 from Drs.F&S. I use it exclusively and love it. Very consistent from batch to batch, well worth the extra bucks as far as Im concerned.

[dpantle]

Wow! Nice findon the IO!! I just ordered 4 buckets, Thanks! ;)

[Mindypin]

I'm glad I could help out. Especially since I just ordered a bunch of salt and it arrived on Friday. Argh. Of course, I got it from thatfishplace and paid a lot more. Argh. And, that topped off my fish budget for now.

[NaCl_H2O]

Thought an update was in order. Since switching to IO, I have done four 80g water changes, which means I haven't even exchanged 50% of my system with IO water yet.

Nothing Major to report, but minor observations are:

Ca sitting at about 380 (not much different than before)
dKH fairly solid at 10, had to fight to get it above 8 before
Amm, NO2, NO3: Still all zero
Phosphate - Who knows!
Mg - Same ~1500
Water clarity, algae, etc - no difference; still clear & no algae (OK, maybe a little cyano)
SPS appears to have slightly better color & polyp extension, and RTN on some Digi's has improved
I have several empty buckets with cool screw on lids 8)

FWIW, YMMV :)

[dpantle]

Yep, those screw on lids are nice!! :D Sure nice not to scrape knuckles when you open 'em up.

[Tim Marvin]

Richard, I saw the thread but failed to see the point......I guess I should quit using Oceanic because Randy says it's bad? LOL, as you could see when you dropped by I am a big fan of Oceanic right now, but if the price starts rising like you stated above, I will probably be back to Kent or IO. I used IO for years and years.

[Richard]

Richard, I saw the thread but failed to see the point......I guess I should quit using Oceanic because Randy says it's bad? LOL, as you could see when you dropped by I am a big fan of Oceanic right now, but if the price starts rising like you stated above, I will probably be back to Kent or IO. I used IO for years and years.

Well to me the point is that the calcium level on oceanic salt is just too high for most hobbyists. That thread is pretty typical of the many, many threads both on maast and reefcentral.

I have a theory on why your getting good results with it. Can you tell me what your Ca & Alk runs at on average.

[Tim Marvin]

I'd like to hear your theory. I haven't tested in some time, but the Ca was staying in the 420-520 range, PH 8.0-8.3, salinity 1.023-1.026, and Alk 9-11.

[Tim Marvin]

I drip Kalk constantly on a Tunze osmoregulater, and dose a little Magnesium now and then. Other than that all I do are water changes routinely at 25%-30% per month.

[::pete::]

Ok ... I decided a couple weeks back to try IO again because I could never get my calcium below 480 (Mg 1500) and sometimes when testing always with salifert could not get the liquid to change color with one syringe!!

I will be adding a calcium reactor and I do drip kalk as my makeup water as well as doing regular frequent smaller water changes. I know the water changes kept my readings high, but it got me thinking about this (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/zoo00/zoo00080.htm) and as we all know corals are living organisms too! So if pure (high) oxygen is not good for us then "I" would think that high calcium (high enough that you are just about to turn it to sand, if not already) can not be that good for the corals.

So far in my tank with the Ca now at 390, Mg 1320, Kh 9.6, Ph 8.1, Salinity 1.023-24 and temp running 80 - 83 I have had several frags that have been in there for a month or 2 that were not encrusting, now encrusting and showing color that was never there as well as excellent polyp extension. Other corals that were in there are also showing better color and polyp extension. My RBTA looks to open more and I could go on!

I do work on and stare at my tank every chance I get :P and cant even walk past it without touching the magnet as well as hang out in the garage on the back side so ... I do notice these things! I test every other day just to be certain as the change is something I dont want to take for granted and have noticed that my levels will now go down and never did before.

Im not knocking oceanic or pushing instant ocean just a thought I had and figured I would try. If it continues to do good it only proves to me that the levels were too high!!

[NaCl_H2O]

could not get the liquid to change color with one syringe!!

I hear ya man, that's why I switched to IO - that Salifert Ca reagent is expensive ;)

Your Ca was proably also high because of your new sandbed, that plus the combination of Oceanic's high Ca just keeps it pumped above 500. Once my tank/sandbed aged, I had dropped below 450 with Oceanic, but dKH was remaining low. The dKH stability around 10 is the most noticable change with IO for me.

I am actually beginning to edge my Ca back slowly to 400 now with Turbo Ca, then the Kalk & Ca Ractor should maintain the level.

[Dozer]

I was just reading this and thought there might be an obvious thing we are missing here- other equipment. What I mean is that one person might have a certain level of success with one brand of salt while using say a Calcium reactor, where another person who is not using a reactor would have a totally different experience. Not to mention kalk reactors/dripping kalk, or dosing other additives and things. Seems to me all of those other things would have a great effect, wouldn't they? For example, my experience has been similar to Tim's. I use Oceanic, and dose occasional kalk (monthly via a dispenser with my osmolator) and occasional dKH superbuffer (about weekly), and I can fairly easily keep things in balance. Simple 150 gallon mixed reef system with fairly low calcium demand. Since I'm not using a calcium reactor I like the high calcium in Oceanic. Seems to me that maybe the other folks that are having trouble with using Oceanic and having sky high calcium might also be using reactors? Anyway, it's just a thought. Also, having such hich calcium will cause the kH to stay down, right? That would explain people saying they can't get their kH to stay up.

I agree with what someone else was saying that if the price of Oceanic was to go up significantly I'd consider IO which has been around forever and has normally been pretty solid. If/when that time comes I'll just have to supplement more Calcium somehow, no big deal. But Oceanic works for my current situation.

[Tim Marvin]

I ran test today that I haven't run for months. Alk is a little low at 9 Dkh, Ca 500, PH 8.1, salinity at 1.024, temp 82, Mag 1500. I dosed some Kent super buffer.

[Richard]

Well your calcium is higher than I would have guessed. Shows how much I know.

I was thinking that because you have alot of established, rapidly growing corals that the calcium uh consumption (or whatever it's called) of your tank was bringing your calcium levels down to a point where you weren't precipitating out carbonates and having chronic alk problems.

Although 500 is still alot lower than some oceanic salt tanks run at (550 to 600).

Oh well, I can't explain your tank but it's very nice. I still won't use oceanic salt though :) .

[JimD]

Just tested a fresh batch of Reef Crystals....
Sg. 025
Ph 8.2
Temp 82
Ca. 460
Dkh 10
P04 0
Mg 1350

Not too bad.

[Tim Marvin]

Richard, I forgot to mention, I sent home 5-10 gallon with you and also did a 10 gallon change on top of that the day before you came. So that is about a 20% water change just a few days ago. The Ca was probably 520-525. My stuff does eat up some Ca especially that gigas that puts on an easy 1/2 to 1 inch per month.

[NaCl_H2O]

I can produce nearly 100 frags per month out of an 80 gallon tank


... especially that gigas that puts on an easy 1/2 to 1 inch per month.

Tim, is there a nuclear power plant near your home? ;)

I wanna be like Tim when I grow up :)

[Richard]

Just tested a fresh batch of Reef Crystals....
Sg. 025
Ph 8.2
Temp 82
Ca. 460
Dkh 10
P04 0
Mg 1350

Not too bad.

Those are perfect numbers to me. Maybe I should try Reef Crystals. Do you get those numbers on EVERY bucket? I used to really like Kent because it gave similar numbers but then some buckets would test out just like IO. Coincidence? Maybe, but rumour has it that Aquarium Systems (IO) mixes Kents salt for them. Makes you wonder huh?

[alton]

I think think this can be settled with a Bud Light or Miller light? Darn there goes another arguement! Too many choices. Lucky we don't live in Russia where there is probably only one choice Table SAlt

[LoneStar]

[quote="alton"]I think think this can be settled with a Bud Light or Miller light? Darn there goes another arguement! Too many choices. Lucky we don

BLAH!!!

Lonestar Light :D

[brewercm]

About the only thing I can think of worse than that is the Milky Beast (Milwalkee's Best).

Apparently you never tried Pearl when it was around. :sick :sick :sick

[NaCl_H2O]

Wow, did this thread take a left turn ...

Falstaff! :w00t

[brewercm]

Got tired of the old salt debate, figured it's time for the worst beer debate. :D

I still think Pearl beats them all, even Falstaff.

[::pete::]

Narraganset!!! I think it was 3.00 for a case!!!

I just found this (http://www.breweriana.com/history/historygansett.html) hahaha ... it turned to Falstaff ;)

[alton]

Lonestar is made by Miller along with Milwalkee's Best Light in Fort Worth. When Lone Star left San Antonio, I left Lone Star! It's a principle thing.

[NaCl_H2O]

Milwalkee's Best Light

That's just wrong! Is it "Best" or is it "Light"? :wacko

Beer should be labeled honestly, like Milk

"Whole Beer", or "2% Taste Free Beer", or "Water, with Beer Extract"

[NaCl_H2O]

Just realized how to get this thread back on track!

... Has anyone used the new "Oceanic Lite" salt - Taste sallty, less Ca! :P

[::pete::]

... Has anyone used the new "Oceanic Lite" salt - Taste sallty, less Ca!

A new marketing strategy?

[Dozer]

Got tired of the old salt debate, figured it's time for the worst beer debate. :D

I still think Pearl beats them all, even Falstaff.

Keystone- the preferred beer of broke college students everywhere (not that I ever was one of course :unsure ). To be fair though, I've never tried Pearl or Falstaff.

On the good side, since moving to Texas I have fallen in love with Shiner (not that anyone asked or cares)...

[alton]

When Lonestar was sold a long time ago a lot of the staff and management went to work for Shiner and in a couple of years Shiner became famous. As for history Shiner use to cost $2 a case + 72 cents for deposit and now look at what you pay for beer? Shiner is the only true Texas beer Left!
P. S. You can keep your "Yellow Belly's"

[brewercm]

"Water, with Beer Extract"

Ahhh, a Coors Light connoisseur. :D

[captexas]

Don't be talking bad about my Coor's Light now! :angry

Hey, wasn't there a salt debate going on somewhere around here? LMAO

[Dozer]

I've always loved Original Coors. Probably my favorite overall beer when all factors are considered. Not too heavy, but solid. Price is great. Coors Light is ok. Frankly there aren't any light beers I'm wild about- they all seem about the same to me. For me it's kind of like ice-cream vs. yogurt. I'd rather have it less often but have the full flavored stuff. My garage fridge is constantly stocked with Shiner, Original Coors, Coors Light and Mike's Hard Lemonade. Gives me a good well rounded selection whatever mood I should be in.

Salt, what salt? Oh yeah. I like my Oceanic. Ask me in 6 months, who knows... 8)

[NaCl_H2O]

No MGD fans or Highlife drinkers? :D

I don't like the Alk level I get when it is mixed :P

Ok, I'll give in since nobody wants to talk about salt anymore :(

Carona Extra
Tecate

Limes are not optional, salt is

[Gator]

coron a and XX green bottle

[::pete::]

Depends on the flavor ... Sam Adams is good beer! Does anyone tour at Hills and Dales?

Nice salt debate!!

[LoneStar]

seems like if we all meet we might go through more kegs than salt buckets! :w00t

[NaCl_H2O]

Finally, a chance to turn this back into a salt debate ...

Do you prefer: a) salt, b)lime, c)both, d)Neither ... with your Carona, Tecate, or XX?

If (a or c): IO or Oceanic :P

[::pete::]

C

IO ... ;)

[CD]

I'll choose door "C", Monty...and IO for the win. :lol

W.

[::pete::]

I'll choose door "C", Monty...and IO for the win. :lol

W.

:lol

[Dozer]

Corona with small slice of lime stuffed into the neck, no salt. Don't ask me which brand of lime.

Josh- I too have trouble with Sam Adams. I can drink Guinness easier than Sammy actually (but then I feel like an un-American Euro lover and I feel bad and I make up for it by having a Shiner...).

[NaCl_H2O]

Ok, my vote = (C), currently using table salt, but considering a switch to ReefCrystals ;)

Carona: rub the lime on the neck, salt the neck, open, squeeze in lime, drop in the lime ... enjoy, repeat

Tecate (cans): open, lots of lime juice on the top, salt on top, add salt & lime as often as needed ... enjoy, repeat

XX: Ok, but first check again to make sure you are really out of Corona and Tecate :angry

Heineken: Only if on an airplane and REALLY thirsty!!!

Tanqueray & Tonic (with lime): When beer just isn't enough!

Tequila shooters (Lime & salt of course): When Tanqueray & Tonic just isn't enough!

[::pete::]

Carona: rub the lime on the neck, salt the neck, open, squeeze in lime, drop in the lime ... enjoy, repeat


are you thinking about a beer? :P