!! ICH !!

[z28pwr]

ICH has reared it's ugly head into my aquarium. With all the additionds I don't know which fish had it, all I know is that all the fish have some degree of ICK except for the clowns and of course the Regal Tang is the worst. It seems like everybody has a diferent way of treating ICK, some people say leave everything alone and just make sure that the water quality is good, others say QT the fish and use either copper, formalin or hyposalinity. What do you guys think, you guys think the fish can make it on their own or should I QT the one's I can catch.

Water parameters are as follows:

SG 1.020
TEMP 82 F
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10
ALK 11 DKH

Thanks.

[NaCl_H2O]

All of your fish already had Ich, it is a parasite always present in the system and normally fought off by the fish's immune system. Stress breaks down there ability to fight it off, and the parasite population blooms. The new additions(s) caused a stressful condition, and the Ich is taking advantage of the opportunity.

How many "New additions" over what period of time, what type of fish, in what size tank?

Best bet is to get the fish healthy, which means well fed (not over fed), high water quality, and don't introduce more stress. Removing fish now would only increase the stres level. I wouldn't do that unless you have no other choice.

Depending on what fish you have, a slightly lower temp (80) might be beneficial, and I'm not sure that your SG shouldn't be raised a little? But, changing any of these now would add stress, so I would leave them alone, or change them VERY gradually.

Is there something they REALLY like to eat? Nori? If so, feed small amounts of their favorite food 3-4 times a day for a few days.

[NaCl_H2O]

Oh yea, with an Alk of 11 dKH, what is your PH?

With Nitrates at 10, I would consider doing a water change too!

[z28pwr]

Steve, PH hovers around 8.0 to 8.1 .

The fish are in a 380 gallon aquarium with a 40 gallon sump. I added about 8 fish within the last 45 days while using TurboStart 900 (bacteria) they were all doing fine until 15 days ago. From what I've been reading low salinity actually helps the fish fight the ick. I was feeding once every other day but now that I have a skimmer on the system I'm going to feed everyday.

[NaCl_H2O]

Well, I think 380 is plenty of space :o I have also heard that low SG helps fish health, but don't have any experience to back that up? PH sounds fine.

I would seriously try feeding smaller amounts more often. Did you possibly add a single Tang lately that's been getting beat up by other Tangs?

[z28pwr]

I pretty much added all the tangs in bulk except for the Regal, he was the first tang to go in the tank, then I put the yellows and the purple and finally I put the Naso, the sailfin and the lavendar.

They all get along well, except for the yellows they chase each other a few times a day, but nothing bad.

[z28pwr]

Josh, it was supposed to be a FOWLR, but you know how that goes. Now I have various zoanthid colonies, mushrooms, hermit crabs, snails and a cleaner shrimp who doesn't do much of anything :roll

[matt]

I think your salinity is right in between where it should be for your corals, snails, and shrimp (10.25) and where it could be for a hyposalinity treatment. You should probably choose one or the other and get your tank there. Personally, I'd get the salinity up to normal for a reef tank and add many cleaner shrimp; one in a tank that big is not enough; try 5 or 6. High temp is probably good; supposedly it speeds up the parasite life cycle, so if they don;t find a host they die. With fish already infected though, it probably does not make much of a difference. You could also try borrowing a UV sterilizer; that with the shrimp might be the best/easiest cure.

Taking your tank down in salinity to the point where the parasites would actually die might kill alot of other things in your tank, then you'd really be bummed.

[don-n-sa]

well Jose...unless you want to catch all of your fish and put them in a hospital tank and lower the salinity to 1.009 and keep it there for 6 weeks then it will be a waiting game to see if your fish fight it off naturally. The salinty of 1.020 will have no effect on the Ick parasites.

The Ick life cycle has several stages and the only proven method to rid a aquarium is wih hypo and/or copper. The Tumonts will die without a host after 4 weeks while your fish are in the Hospital tank.

If you are going to wait it out and see then I would take the advice from the others and soak your foods in garlic and keep a close eye on everyone. Garlic does not kill Ick but it does help with the appetite of your fishes which in turn will give them a better chance of fighting the Ick.

Keep in mind that ICk has a stage in which the parasites drop off their hosts and Incyst in the substrate to multiply only to come back stronger.

Here is some good info on Ick...Good luck Jose!!!!

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

[demodiki]

Your cleaner shrimp isn't all over the fish? I thought they were good for that.

*eyes the lack of a cleaner shrimp in his own tank*

[z28pwr]

Thanks guys, well I tried to get the fish out and put then in a QT tank but it was impossible to get them out of the tank with 350 lbs of live rock 3FT deep tank and having to switch from panel to panel due to the tank being made out of acrylic.

I was already adding some Kent Garlic Extreme to their food, but now I give them 3 times more garlic and feed them twice a day, but unfortunately I already had 3 tangs die and I think it's just going to get worse. The cleaner shrimp doesn't do squat even though the fish practically beg him to clean them. I was thinking of adding more but I've read that they don't really eat ick. It's so frustrating I feel like just nuking the tank with copper but then I will loose all the corals, inverebrates and all the life in the LR.


This is where I really get frustrated. It seems everywhere I read there is a diferent viewpoint.

Lots of people say that all fish have ick, but according to this site, that is not the case:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

There is a widely held belief in the marine aquarium hobby that "Ich" is always present in our aquaria and this belief is often repeated on marine bulletin boards. There is much information in the scientific literature that contradicts this belief.

C. irritans is an obligate parasite (Burgess and Matthews, 1994; ****erson and Dawe, 1995; Yoshinaga and ****erson, 1994). Obligate means the parasite can not survive without infecting its host, in this case, fish. Theronts have been shown to die if a suitable host is not found within the required time. Yoshinaga and ****erson (1994) found that few theronts (0.34%) were viable 12.5 hours after excystment and Burgess and Matthews (1994) found that no theronts were viable 18 hours after excystment. Colorni (1985) found that some excysted tomites (=theronts) were observed to be moving weekly after 48 hours. While the life span of the theronts appears variable, it is limited and all will die without finding a suitable host.


Then I thought oaky I will put a cleaner wrasse but it says:

Can cleaner wrasses control "Ich"?

Many aquarists regard common cleaner wrasses, Labroides dimidiatus, as effective agents for the control and treatment of marine "Ich". While this would be a desirable situation, it is unfortunately not true. Grutter (2000) showed that L. dimidiatus feeds mainly on the larvae of gnatid isopods throughout its life, and C. irritans theronts were never found in it's diet. Fish remain infected with theronts despite the presence of cleaner wrasse, and even the cleaner wrasse may become infected (personal observation).


Then the big question why did they get ick in the first place:

Does stress cause "Ich"?

Stress and poor water conditions do not cause marine "Ich", although they will lower a fish's resistance to infection and impair their immune system. If C. irritans is not present in a tank, it doesn't matter what how stressed a fish may be, it cannot get infected. In a tank where parasites are present, stressed fish are more likely to show signs of "Ich" before more healthy fish, but the healthy fish are just as likely to become infected as the numbers of parasites increase. Those fish species that are less susceptible to "Ich" or those individuals that have an acquired immunity, may show no signs and may not get infected.


And to top it all off most all my fish are tangs which as we all know are ick magnets :roll .

[alexwolf]

I dont know if its worth a shot, but I just got the new HJikari med for ich. Supposed to be reef safe? Maybe you can give it a try. Ill give you a discount to let me know how it works. I have been using their Pazipro to dip and their bacterial meds, they seem to work well.

[CD]

The cleaner shrimp doesn't do squat even though the fish practically beg him to clean them. I was thinking of adding more but I've read that they don't really eat ick.


I'd have to disagree with that finding. We currently have two cleaner shrimp in our 75G, and had it not been for them, we probably would've lost more fish than we did during our ich outbreak awhile back. The ich infested fish were visiting the shrimp's "cleaning station" in pairs, and the shrimp were furiously working on removing the ich from the time the lights came on 'till lights out...cleaning their bodies, fins, and even in their mouths. One of the cleaners was so intent on removing the ich, he even took a ride around the tank on the back of the Hippo (wish I could've gotten a pic of that...LOL). I'm planning on getting at least a couple more cleaner shrimp after we switch everything over to the 210G - Like I mentioned, I truly believe these creatures saved some of our fish's life.

It seems to me though, the younger (smaller) the cleaner shrimp are, the less likely they are to aggressively clean the fish. Are your cleaners fairly good sized? The other thing I've noticed, is that ich outbreaks (especially in tangs) are generally stress related - whether it be water quality, territory issues, overstocking, dominance issues, general health (not eating well), new housing (getting over being moved), or a combination of any of the above.

The thing that puzzles me about your situation, is that you've got a LOT of space in your tank for these tangs, so it shouln't be a territory issue...water params are good. Would there be any way you could post a pic of your tank/rockwork/fish? Maybe list what fish you still have and their sizes? Anyway - personally I would slowly raise your salinity back to around 1.025 like matt suggested and get some more cleaner shrimp...the biggest ones you can find. It may take them a bit to set up their cleaning stations, but since the remaining fish you have are going to be all but impossible to get out of your display without breaking down the tank, I think this is going to be your best hope. That, and just keep feeding them well like you have been. Keep us posted on their progress!

Wendy :)

[z28pwr]

Here's a picture of the tank with all the fish.
I never saw them fighting for territory, the yellows would chase each other here and there but nothing bad. It seems to me like they have more then enough room.

http://www.z28pwr.com/images/380_fish3.jpg

My cleaner shrimp is a bit small (around an inch and a half). I didn't want him too big since they only seem to live 2 years in captivity. The problem with this one is that he won't clean anybody :roll .

The fish that have died were the last one's I put in about 3-4 weeks ago which were my Lavender tang, Naso Tang and Desjardini Sailfin Tang :( The Desjardini died at lunch time today, he was the bravest of them all.


Alex, I'll try to stop by tonight to take a look at the meds.

[CD]

Disease: Infectious, Parasitic, Nutritional, Genetic, Social

If anything is more unfortunate than these fishes penchant for fighting, it is their susceptibility to those twin protozoan nemeses of captive marines, Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon. What's more to woe is the unsuitability of using copper compounds as treatment. This common element in prepared aquarium remedies is of course toxic to the algae and non-vertebrates possibly housed with your tang(s); but it is also incrementally poisonous to the surgeons themselves.

Due to their essential gut fauna, and skin characteristics there is no null zero-effect dose of copper compounds with these fishes. Put another way, they are negatively impacted along with the 'bugs' you're trying to do away with when treated with copper. What's an aquarist to do then? Number one, to exercise the usual prophylaxes of quarantine and freshwater dips/baths in moving Acanthurus. Secondarily, the use of facultative biological cleaners (fish, shrimp) is promoted.
********************************************

Above info is from WWM - thought you may be interested since you mentioned you were going to consider meds. BTW - how are your fish doing today?

Wendy

[Instar]

Honestly fish should not die because of ick, especilly in a tank with a SG of 1.020. All you have to do to get rid of ick in that is raise the temp a little and feed well if things are going normally. Is there a refugium with macro growing in there? Macro aids in the immune response and disease resistivity believe it or not. I believe that things appearing as ick do cause death as Wendy addresses above. I noticed a probe or maybe a heater in your picture that looks like it could be a metal outside casing? What is that?

[Richard]

As far as "ICK" always being present. The truth is it is never present because it is a freshwater parasite that cannot survive in saltwater. It's strange that saltwater hobbyists who tend to try to correctly identitify every species of livestock in their tank refer to most every disease as "Ick" or "Ich". Why not just call it yucky stuff.

Cryptocaryon is not always present but there are many other parasites that are probably always present and can take fish or a tank out if conditions are right and can appear as white spots on the fish. Temperature fluctuation is often the culprit in letting these parasites overcome the fish.

How many watts of heater do you have on the 380?

[don-n-sa]

Richard,

Isn't Cryptocaryon irritans called "Marine Ick" ?

[Richard]

Depends who you ask. Most consider "marine ick" to be cryptocaryon while some others gurus are refering to amlyoodinium when they talk about it.

"Ick" is always a heavily debated issue on every forum. I think cause/treatment will always be debated and confusing as long as people are not necessarily talking about the same thing, just white spots on a fish. In the 5 years of owning a store I have had the displeasure of dealing with the following "Ick" all of which looked "almost" identical on the fish...Cryptocaryon irritans, Amlyoodinium, Neobenedia melleni, Glugea and maybe a couple of others I'm forgetting.

Some exernal parasites that are probably always present, never mentioned but usually only become a problem when the fish are stressed are Trichodinosis, Icthobodosis or similar parasites, Crypobia and many others.

Cryptocaryon is probably the most studied and understood parasite. There shouldn't be so much confusion about it's treatment and prevention but as long as all white spots are called ich there will be.

To me it doesn't sound like z28pwr has a cryptocaryon problem. In a system that size cryptocaryon usually doesn't overcome fish that quickly. I have a friend who watched cryptocaryon for 2 months in a 350 gallon fish only tank hoping the fish would overcome it on their own before he had to treat them.

Given the size of the system and the fact that the problem started at the beginning of May when nightime temps where in the 50's I think it is likely he is dealing with a different parasite infection brought on by temperature fluctuation. Just my guess. I think the advise to warm them up and feed them well is right on. A 380 with lots of tangs should have no less than a 1000 watts of heater IMO.

[z28pwr]

Richard, it appears to have started as ich or what looked like ich and now I don't know what it really is, the purple has a few white spot grouping (ie 10 spots in one area, then another 10 or so in another). I really don't know what this is at this point but it's wiping out the tank and has now taken both my maroon clowns :( . I've been feeding twice a day and the fish that are left are fat, but their health is deteriorating, their eyes are starting to cloud up, it just looks like a big bacterial infection.

Regarding heating I'm using (2) 300 watt heaters for a total of 600 watts. I do have a couple more heaters but I didn't put them in the tank since the tank is made out of acrylic and seems to always be at 78 - 81 now that I reduced my skimmer pump. It stays at 79 for the most part until the lights come on, then it slowly goes up to 81. I rarely see the heaters kick on at all, but they are set to 79. Do you think that little temp change can affect the fish, it does take a few hours to come down since acrylic seems to act as an insulator. The only think I can think of is that at nightime we set the AC down to 75 and I may not realize it since I'm asleep and the tank may dip down lower then 79, but I'm sure it doesn't drop lower then 77 since that's when my temp alarm kicks in.


I'm starting to think that one of the new additions came in with some disease.

[z28pwr]

Honestly fish should not die because of ick, especilly in a tank with a SG of 1.020. All you have to do to get rid of ick in that is raise the temp a little and feed well if things are going normally. Is there a refugium with macro growing in there? Macro aids in the immune response and disease resistivity believe it or not. I believe that things appearing as ick do cause death as Wendy addresses above. I noticed a probe or maybe a heater in your picture that looks like it could be a metal outside casing? What is that?

Larry, that is a WON heater. I belive it's made out of stainless steel.

[Richard]

http://www.knutsonclan.com/pics/smiley/bow.gif

LOL...don't bow to me, I still screw up and kill stuff!

z28 - My last post logged as Guest so I can't edit it.
You may want to warm your tank up to 84 or so. The recommended treatment for Icthobodosis or similar parasites is to increase temperature to 86 degrees (Noga). I wouldn't set the heaters at 86 if your lighting is going to raise it beyond that during the day. It's kinda of a catch 22 though because 86 degrees is the optimal temperature for cryptocaryon to reproduce so IF it is cryptocaryon the higher temperature could make it worse faster. Kinda sucks but if we didn't want a challenge then we'd be into basket weaving instead of sw tanks right?

[NaCl_H2O]

Very nice write up Richard! Maybe we should start a "Ask Richard" forum ;)

Actually, I just wanted an excuse to use this smiley http://www.knutsonclan.com/pics/smiley/bow.gifhttp://www.knutsonclan.com/pics/smiley/bow.gifhttp://www.knutsonclan.com/pics/smiley/bow.gif