adding fish question

[jaded]

Since this tank was bought already established I've got a couple of fish that I love but that really dont fit with my long term plans for the tank. Here's a summary of my basic plan
1. Sohal Tank
1. Powder Brown
1. Hippo (already have)
1. Purple Sailfin Tang
1. Ebili Angel (already in there)
1. Flame Angle (I love the look, but if I cant have this with the ebili I'll keep the Ebili (he's great))
1. Pair of true percs (may need to get rid of tomato clown)
1. yellow coris wrasse (already have him)
1. 6 line wrasse

Questions:
#1. Since I have 2 anemones & many corals can I have more than one pair of clowns? If so please explain
#2. How many Tangs is to many... I may not want to hear the answer to this, but let me have it straight!!!
#3. Can I put a flame angle and an ebili angel in the same tank?


Tank size: 135rr (well established)
Sump: 50 gallon (~pete~)
Skimmer: 30" dual beckett
Live Rock: ~175lbs
Fish: 1 hippo, 1 scopas, 1 tomato clown, yellow coris wrasse, ebili angle
Corals: pink birds nest, Monti cap, Colt, Bubble, Frogspawn, candy cane, cabbage & devils hand leathers... various polyps, shrooms, zoos, etc...
Other: large Seabea, small RBTA, tons of crabs, snails, emerald crabs, cleaner shrimp, large coral banded shrimp...

[Reef69]

Rule of thumb - Do NOT mix different types of clowns- Also, do NOT add more than 2 clowns- they will eventually pair up and either kill, or harrass the remaining clown. So, 2 clowns of the same family would work for you.

I wouldnt mix angels, from what i know, they will fight, although i have two pygmy angels (bi-color and cherub angel) and they get along just fine, i guess its a mattter of luck..lol

Tangs are grazers, and in the wild they have tenths of hundreds of feet of territory, so keep in mind they are not used to be in a tank crowded with other tangs. I would keep maybe 3 or 4 (remember they will out grow the tank). Hope this Helps..

[jaded]

I'm happy to have just one pair of clowns, Ive just seen many tanks with more than one pair, so I thought I'd ask.

It would be great to have the Flame and Ebili (there was one of each when I got the tank now that i think of it) but if its a case of one or the other I'll stick with the ebili.. hes really a great fish!!

Tangs are the big question... I already have 2. The scopas is a wonderful, very healthy fish, but if I have to limit the number in the tank to 3 or less I'm probably going to end up with the Sohal, Powder Brown and Hippo. I'm sure I could push it, but thats not fair to the fish.

I need all the help on this I can get... more comments welcome

[jonreed]

I have heard that you can keep some types of clowns with more thn one pair. For instance my friend has either three or four ocselaris(sp.) clowns and they have been in there for more than a year. Also the skunk family of clowns I hear are pretty harmless. I have one and he is the most timid fish in my tank. I don't know if this helps and I'd love to hear if anybody else has anything to say about this. I have always been wondering the same thing.

[CD]

Tangs are the big question...


I think the biggest deal with the Tangs is adding them all at once, and making sure they don't feel crowded. You have to really plan for the "long haul". For instance, here are the max. lengths of the fish you have chosen (nice picks BTW)...

Sailfin....15.7"
Powder Brown...8.3"
Sohal....15.7"
Hippo....12.2"

Even with a 135G tank, that's going to be a LOT of fish inches...LOL...and a lot of poo (bioload). Personally, I'm quite taken with the Sohals and wouldn't mind getting one myself one day. In your size tank (since most of these fish will get so big :o ), I would just go with just two (or three at the most with the understanding that one will have to go at some point). The only problem I forsee with the Sohal is that they are HIGHLY territorial, and will chastise other fish - especially other tangs. The Powder Brown is a more "genteel" delicate tang, and would probably be harassed to death by a Sohal. I guess I should ask - if you had to choose, what would be your *first* choice, then we can go from there.

As far as the clowns, I would just stick to a pair. More may co-exist OK while they are young, but once they get to the breeding age, they will pair up and beat the cr*p out of the remaining clowns. I've seen it happen in another member's 135G...not a pretty sight.

Wendy :)

[Reef69]

I have had every type of clown you can imagine..(im a clown freak), except the ones that is illegal to have..lol..All clowns will pair up and exclude any other clown In the wild, they live in groups, where the female is the boss, 1 male, which she uses to mate with, and maybe 2 or 3 juvenile males down the ladder. Once the alpha female dies, the mating male will turn into a female and the first male down the line will be the mating male..and so on. In captivity things are different for some reason, that reason, is space. You can get away with it if you have a BIG tank and the odds of the pairs seeing eachother is remote. You can have more than 2 clowns, but sooner or later you will have to get rid of some, thats what happened with my black and white ocellaris, i had 3, 2 paired up, i had to give the remaining clown away because the pair was kicking his butt..(BA has the clown, last i heard he was fat and happy)..so, my suggestion is, keep 1 pair, or multiple for a short period of time..

[jaded]

Tough questions Wendy...

tangs... if I had to choose, I'd say that my first choice would be to trade the scopas out for a powder Brown and a sohal (same time)... that would be a total of 3 tangs and really only an addition of one (bioload/poo speaking). Of course that would be after adding the flame angle, 6line wrasse and clowns. From what I've read about the sohal, they are not so much violent, just bold and territorial. It's recommended that they are the last fish to be added. I'm assuming that it would be even better to add him with the powder at the same time.

If things go my way financially in the future I would have a fish room and a larger tank (although not much larger). But that realistically wont be anytime soon. Maybe I could knock over a bank or something, but I dont think they allow tanks in prison...even if it's federal time!

[Andrew]

The two angels should be fine, provided there are plenty of hiding places.
I personally would not get the sohal. they like lots of open areas to cruise.
maybe a kole or. . .

hth
andrew

[Dozer]

Tangs are grazers, and in the wild they have tenths of hundreds of feet of territory, so keep in mind they are not used to be in a tank crowded with other tangs. I would keep maybe 3 or 4 (remember they will out grow the tank). Hope this Helps..

I think this point about the grazing and the huge territories is a really important point that is often ignored (I've unfortunately ignored and learned the hard way myself). It seems like every time I try to "push it" with tangs it doesn't end up well. IMO these fish feel crowded in a way that is hard for us to really understand. It goes beyond mere size. For example, let's take dogs. Great Danes, Saint Bernards and Mastiffs are huge dogs- all about twice the size of a Lab and 10 times the size of a Jack Russell Terrier. However, if you had a really small space to keep the dog in which ones do you think would suffer the most? Ask anyone who has ever kept a Jack Russell in an apartment without giving him extreme amounts of outdoor exercise the answer- and ask him if he had to replace all the furniture or just repair it :lol .

I think in the future I am going to try and buy tangs pretty small and keep them happy for a year or so and then trade them in for small ones again. It just seems like when they start to get good size, and/or when there are too many of them in one tank, they "feel" crowded and they also quickly run out of grazing. The combination of those factors sometimes makes it difficult to keep them truly happy over the long haul. However, I know many others have kept multiple tangs together for a long time- including large ones, so I hope they will chime in with their success stories.

PS- This isn't meant as a "Tang police" post, as I don't agree with some of those people. For example I don't think a small to medium yellow tang needs a 200 gallon tank or something to be happy, especially if it's the only tang in the tank. I also think the variety definitely matters. To me it seems like the Hippo/Powder/Naso body types suffer the most when crowded, whereas the yellows and purples can handle it a little better.

As usual, all just MHO- and I hope it makes some kind of sense.

[jaded]

Ouch.. the sohal is THE fish. Do you oppose them in tanks in general or is it just a tank my size?

[::pete::]

I would say size of the tank and actual swimming room will hurt on your tang selection. Clowns ... hmmmm .... I have 6 -2ea from different families and not one were purchased as a pair nor were they added together.

[jaded]

I was thinking of your tank when I posted that question :) I was also thinking of your bãÐÐ*ss powder brown when I made the decision that he's my favorite tang

so pete, dont be scared... thumbs up on more tangs or thumbs down? You've seen my tank, I know you have experience and will shoot me straight

[jaded]

in all honesty the scopas is already to the point that I think he'd be happier in a bigger tank. He's not crowded, but he's pretty big.

[CD]

if I had to choose, I'd say that my first choice would be to trade the scopas out for a powder Brown and a sohal (same time)...


Well...here you have selected the most aggressive and probably one of the most delicate of the tangs. See, I wouldn't do that. How about the Powder Brown and keep the scopas? Somehow, I just think a Sohal wouldn't be happy in the long run for that sized tank.

Jade - you remember awhile back when we had that beautiful Atlantic Blue Tang? I was going to keep her in QT until our 210G was ready, but she seemed so stressed we put her in the 75G anyway? We ended up losing 4 lovely fish over that stress that I created for them. Initially, I thought that when they started getting sick, that they had gotten velvet. That wasn't the case. They all got SO stressed out due to the territory issues and increased bioload, that they got sick and died quickly. I couldn't get her out of the display without taking apart the whole tank at that point. If it hadn't been for the cleaner shrimp, I probably would've lost a couple more. The worst part is that I knew better. I was just so happy to finally find a ABT locally, that I threw caution to the wind, and was hoping upon hope that they would be OK until the 210G was ready. When the ABT started getting stressed about territory, she started pacing the tank. This in turn stressed out everbody else. I am STILL so very sad about that whole situation, and it hurts everytime I think about it. This will be my "worst mistake ever" scenerio, and believe me - I've learned my lesson...the sad part, is that it was at the expense of four lovely fish. I will never overstock again. :(



From what I've read about the sohal, they are not so much violent, just bold and territorial. It's recommended that they are the last fish to be added


Yes, I understand...but it's that "territorial and bold" that is going to be your worst bane to the other fish. Even though I think a Sohal is GORGEOUS, I doubt I would get one myself - even with a 210G - I need to think about how my Yellow Tang and Hippo would feel about a big "antsy" tang pacing back and forth in the tank. I get really attached to our fish, so buying small and eventually trading them off wouldn't be a consideration for me. I am now looking at the long haul in the 210G, and the decisions are hard for me, as there are so many beautiful fish one can get in the aquarium trade. Even going from the 75G (where the current residents are now calm and happy) to the 210G - which will be a huge jump in water volume - I think we will probably end up with maybe one other "larger" fish, and maybe two smaller.

Wendy

[Reef69]

In my opinion, messing with those particular tangs, at different times, will cause a HUGE explosion of ick..and a HUGE loss of money..ssince they will be added differently, and you already have a tang in there..its not about size of tank at this point, the tang you have could already claimed the tank as his..lol.., i would stick to the hippo and a scopas..i would NOT mess with a sohal and any powder tang (blue or brown)..

[::pete::]

so pete, dont be scared... thumbs up on more tangs or thumbs down? You've seen my tank, I know you have experience and will shoot me straight

Well they need swimming room and you need to think about their full size. Half your tank (the back) is rock and the rest is the swimming room ... what do you think? :)

[::pete::]

In my 180 the Sohal was in there for over a week before I added the other fish including a yellow, powder brown and hippo ... no problems at all. I do think it had something to do with messing with the rock work and all witch switched everything up on the Sohal.

[leslie]

I just wanted to let you know that I have 2 true percs, 1 clarki, and 1 maroon clown, and they get along fine unless one tries to play in the other ones anenome. I know most people say you can not do it, but mine are fine (got lucky I guess).

[Reef69]

..I would watch the maroon in the long run, they are the most aggressive clownfish, along with saddlebacks..

[jaded]

All good info...

the general concensus:
No sohal :(
Yes to the Flame angle
No on multiple clown pairs (but it can be done)

I will make a few tang changes... not sure what but the sohal is out until I upgrade. anybody interested in a nice big scopas thats very happy, well adjusted and healthy?