over, under, over...or?

[SaltyJim]

Ok...for all of you acrylic workers out there...what is the desired baffle placement in a sump? Over-under-over or under-over-under?

Any benfit to doing it one way over the other?

[eric]

I believe having the water flow under-over-under (which could be over-under-over when you're actually talking baffle placement) is better at limiting bubbles in the return section. As well, that gives you a slightly higher volume of water capacity in the return area, all else being equal.

[SaltyJim]

I believe having the water flow under-over-under (which could be over-under-over when you're actually talking baffle placement)

Speak English, man!

No seriously though...you mean have the first baffle higher, next on the bottom, and last higher again? Just want to make sure I follow what you were posting. Ans yes, I am trying to get a higher water volume in the return part of the sump.

[jaded]

Mine goes over, under, over

If your wanting the best way to keep bubbles in check add another "wall" in the return compartment with enough room to add LR, filter floss, etc...

I'm having a bubble problem so I shouldnt speak, but that is going to be part of my future plan if I cant afford to get the closed loop going

[eric]

No seriously though...you mean have the first baffle higher, next on the bottom, and last higher again?....Ans yes, I am trying to get a higher water volume in the return part of the sump.

Yes, that is what I mean. Having the baffle closest to the return higher gives you the water volume between that and the middle baffle. That section will rise and fall with the return chamber.

Now if you're going to have some substrate in the first chamber, that throws a little wrench in things, but just means a slight adjustment in how high the first baffle is.

[eric]

Like this. Could have a substrate layer in the first section, just need clearance of baffle.

[jaded]

Hmmm thats upside down IMO

all you have in effect is a wall not baffles

[::pete::]

The baffles are there in hopes to get rid of the bubbles before the return ... up releases bubbles .... the ones that make it down then again go up and get released ... ect

[mathias]

this thread made my head hurt....

[SaltyJim]

Hmmm thats upside down IMO

all you have in effect is a wall not baffles

ah...but the way I see it (and the reason I asked in the first place) is that if you have the water going OVER the last baffle, then you have a splashing into the return part of the sump...wouldn't this create more bubbles? Having the water go UNDER the last baffle would let the micro bubbles rise to the surface again, right?

hmm...maybe put 4 baffles in and have the best of both worlds :wacko

[::pete::]

It all depends on how fast the water is going over the last baffle as well as how far of a drop. You could always put a tray there and add carbon or something to get a decent flow and stop more bubbles.

[eric]

That's the reason I did mine that way originally. I've got eggcrate in between the 2nd and third baffle. I just put cotton in there and change it out when I remember.

As for the bubbles, created by flowing over the second or third, like Pete said is the drop.

[brewercm]

I had a sump that was somewhat that type of design. Sitting in the last under was a sponge block before the water went under to the other return side. That kept me from getting any bubbles, of course then you have to deal with cleaning the sponge now and then.

[eric]

A bag of stuffing cotton cost me like $.75 and last a year or two. Just toss it every few weeks.

[jaded]

This is the future plan I was talking about... I think it has all the features that everyone is talking about. Maybe it would work for you too

[SaltyJim]

Hey Jaded...you said earlier that you thought the drawing posted by Eric was upside down, but isn't what you have in your last post the exact same thing, just with an extra initial baffle? It sounds like we/you are all talking about the same configuration of under, over, under (or in Jaded and my case over, under, over, under)...seem correct?

[jaded]

I guess I should explain my drawing is flowing from right to left... the water still goes over the far right baffle, under the center baffle and over the far left baffle. The last wall then forces the water to go through a compartment that can be filled with rubble, foam, bio-balls... the final compartment would be for bubble bustin'

In the end what's important is that the water flows over the last baffle into the return compartment so the evaporation does not effect the water level in the baffles. "Over??? but your drawing goes under" you say??? yes but that last wall is not a baffle it is simply a wall to force water through the bubble bustin' material.

Did I clear that up or just make it more confusing? This thread is making my head hurt too :blink

[eric]

Now you done it. My head hurts. How's your wall different from a baffle? You're still directing the flow under that last one.

I'd call all four of yours baffles (or walls). And as long as you've got that 'bubble bustin' compartment, I think the number of baffles you have is just overkill and wasting what could be valuable space. Everything can be shifted a "compartment's distance" to the right and enlarge the return compartment.

[jaded]

that bubble bustin wall will not effect the water volume of the return compartment... its simply to divert the flow through the bubble bustin material.

lets look at it closer
http://www.maast.org/modules/PNphpBB2/files/drawing1.gif
in this illustration the water will flow under the first wall and over the middle wall then under a final wall. The final wall will have no effect on the water level in the return compartment and would do little to help with bubbles. In effect this sump wouldn't have a complete baffle. As a matter of fact you could remove that wall completely and the only thing it would do is allow the bubbles to escape faster to the surface

http://www.maast.org/modules/PNphpBB2/files/bubblebustersump.jpg
now in this illustration (sorry I reversed the flow) the water flows over, under & then over. This is a single baffle not 3 seperate baffles, but simantics arent the important thing here... what is important is that the water will flow through the baffle and then into the return compartment. the final wall is just a way to divert water through a bubble catch. In a matter of speaking its the same as in the first illustration just mine has an eggcrate shelf to hold the bubble buster stuff. If it makes it easier to understand image that last wall is 12" away from the baffle, making a large area for bubblestopper©.

[jaded]

check out this very informative site (http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html)!!!

[brewercm]

Now I'm confused. Unless you have water flowing through that last wall after your eggcrate you have to be going under one last time to get to your return area. Basically being over,under,over,under. It doesn't matter if that last wall is 1 inch or 12 inches away you can still only get water to the other side by going either under or through that wall.

[captexas]

So who's on third base? LMAO Reading all this over under, under over talk made me think of that old comedy skit! lol

The eggcrate section is not only good for stopping bubbles, it also helps prevent sand and other particles from being sucked into the return pump which tends to cause seals to go bad like on my Ampmaster 2100.

[eric]

As numbing as it might be...

So I flipped my drawing to match the flow direction. And added the eggcrate, which I do have. I believe leftmost wall/baffle helps keep bubbles trapped in it's rightmost compartment because they don't have the flow to carry them under the baffle, whether there is carbon/cottom/bubblebuster material #1 in there. No I believe this is exactly the same as Jaded's but allows the baffles/walls to be shifted right, making the return section larger. Your rightmost wall/baffle/piece of acrylic doesn't do anything that I can see other than take space.

Now is it really true that it flows opposite in Australia?

[jaded]

I'm not sure why thats confusing... The water is made to go under to create the compartment. The compartment is in the return section not before it. It still doesn't effect the volume or water level in the return compartment.

i.e. If you have a bathtub full of water with a pump taking water from one end to the other it wouldn't make any difference to the water level or the volume if you put a wall in the middle (other than displacement, but thats another story).

I'm only using the above analogy to make it easier to understand, the same as I used the "image the compartment is 12 inches away".

[captexas]

This is somewhat off topic but does affect the sump design -also take into account that the section at the return area is going to be the area that fluctuates in height due to water evaporation. So, if you use a water top-off system the sensor normally goes there. It is better to have a larger evaporation area so the top-off system is not constantly running to refill this section. That is one of the few flaws in my monster sump is that I made the final return section fairly small after all my baffles so my top-off pump runs frequently (not as bad now that I have a chiller).

[jaded]

Ummm sorry eric but maybe I'm not explaining this correctly... You aren't creating a baffle. A baffle is when water flows over, under, over... you have the water going under and then over into the return compartment... the last wall there is not a part of the baffle.

do you agree that in your drawing you could move the leftmost wall as far left as you wanted without effecting the water level in that last compartment? I think you do since your drawing the water level right through the wall.

can you see that if that wall has no effect on the water level that you only have 2 walls in your baffle?

you are correct... an extra piece in the baffle will take up another 1"-2" of center/right section space but it is neccesary if you wish to have a baffle.

Did you look at the site (http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html) I linked to earlier... that guy is much better than I at explaining this stuff... I'm sure your design would work. If you decide to go that route please report back on your results!!!