Tank Bottoms

[Thunderkat]

Ok, I have seen several things online about different tank bottoms.

I thought I would hate the bare bottom tank idea but I have my temporary tanks with just live rocks in there, no substrate. It is actually pretty nice with the bare bottom but its also not natural.

I noticed in the plenum system there is not suppose to be a protein skimmer used. Why not? I don't understand why you wouldn't. If you lowered nutrients and things dissolved in the water you are not going to kill off all the microaerophyllic bacteria just make the numbers go down.

I also saw the algal turf method and thought it was nice too (basically just use a refugium).

What kind of tank bottoms does everybody out there use?

Any thoughts or recommendations?

One last question, how much live rock is recommended for a 55 gallon aquarium?

[Polkster13]

Sent you a reply to your PM on the above questions.

[JesterGrin_1]

What is wrong there Polkster did you think you would overload the system with your looooooooooooong answer lol. But I do have to admit there is a bunch there to go over. :)

[brewercm]

My next tank is going to be bare bottom with the white cutting board material.

[thedude]

I'm going barebottom with black starboard material.

[Thunderkat]

I found this (http://biology.kenyon.edu/Microbial_Biorealm/bacteria/nitrospira/Nitrospira.htm) online about Nitrospira and has a good little description on nitrogen cycle. This bacteria is aerobic too, article also has a little bit on nitrogen cycle.

Is that white cutting board material available cut into aquarium sizes?

[brewercm]

Not sure where your location is but they have it at Regal Plastics here in San Antonio. It's called Sanilight (that's one name the guy there gave me) and they can cut it to size. Not sure of the max sheet size it comes in but for a 60X18 1/4 inch sheet it was going to be between $25 and $30.

[Polkster13]

Actually, he sent me a PM asking me about this and many other things. I had replied before I saw the thread. Just wanted to let him know I had replied without reposting what I had sent him in the PM. Sorry if this caused any confusion. We have been PMing each other a lot over the past couple of weeks.

[JesterGrin_1]

On my new little 180gal tank I am getting ready to set up I am really leaning towards about 3 or 4 in of southdown.

[JesterGrin_1]

Polkster no problem at all. :). Right now I am going nuts on how to plumb this tank of mine lol. It is small at 5 feet long 24in tall and 30in front to back. Thinking of using the OceonMotion 4 way or not to use it and just use two or four returns from my Sequence Hammerhead. I am open to all ideas for that. :)

[Polkster13]

There are several reefers that have tanks that are similar to yours in SA and I am sure they will be willing to come over and give you their advice. I like the sequence pumps (have 2) as they are quiet and don't drain my wallet when it is time to pay my electric bill.

[Thunderkat]

3) Snails can turn themselves over
11) Snails can turn themselves over (yeah I know it's a duplicate, but it's just cool)


I do hate turning snails over. How snails survive in nature I will never know, maybe thats why you find so many shells on the beach.

[don-n-sa]

ahh the bare-bottom debate...well it is defintley a viable option for someone who has a SPS dominated tank with a LOW fish bioload who wants low maintenance. But for most a nice 3-5 inch sandbed that is WELL maintained will have a tank that is healthier ( IMO) and more flexible. It all depends on what kind of tank that you want to have. Also a maintained sand bed will not die.

Now some who goes bare bottom and puts a sand bed in a fuge or sump and that works great but you will need a large fuge for that.

Bare-bottom tanks don't look right to me...I guess its because of all the reefs that I have dived at all had sand on the bottom... :P

[don-n-sa]

here are some advantages of having a sand bed

1. some fish bury themselves in it for protection
2. has excellent buffering qualities
3. a well maintained sandbed adds to the nitrate reduction capabilities of a system
4. easier to aquascape with a sandbed without worrying about a collapse that could crack the bottom of your tank

[Thunderkat]

Ok, I have read articles and seen everybody's concerns here. Bare bottom and deep sand bed seem like really good ideas with pros and cons.

DSB:

Pro: -allows bacteria and other water purifying organisms to flourish
-supports weight of rocks
-looks natural
-haven for certain fish and organisms
-buffer

Cons:-snails can't turn themselves
-"ring around the collar"
-can foul the aquarium if not maintained properly
-harder to keep clean

Bare bottom:

Pro: -it is easy to keep clean
-snails can turn themselves
-less cleaning crew needed
-no "ring around the collar"

Cons: -rocks can slide and break aquarium glass
-you can't keep as many fish
-water chemistry needs to be monitored more closely
-fish that live in the glass bottom areas of the ocean are hard to find.


I don't have many fish but I do plan on buying two more clownfish (oscillaris is my favorite- anybody know where to buy tank raised?). The only other coral I want is some Xenia.

Can a 55 gallon barebottom aquarium (with live rock of course) support a cleaner wrasse, an algae blenny, 2 oscillaris clowns, a cleaning crew of a few snails, 15 small mushrooms, and some zoos? I will be adding a sump this time around but don't have room for a refugium (although my CPR dual pak may be able to have plants in it if I leave out the biobale- used to grow bacteria in).

[Brett Wilson]

-water chemistry needs to be monitored more closely
That could be argued either way. With a DSB i'd be watching my nitrates/nitrites more closely than with a BB.
But with either system i'd watch my Calcium, alkalinity, magnesium just the same.

FWIW I'm running BB for the first time (in a 25g) and i'm fairly happy with it.
It's been setup for a little over 2 months now.

-Brett

[Brett Wilson]

Can a 55 gallon barebottom aquarium (with live rock of course) support a cleaner wrasse, an algae blenny, 2 oscillaris clowns, a cleaning crew of a few snails, 15 small mushrooms, and some zoos? I will be adding a sump this time around but don't have room for a refugium (although my CPR dual pak may be able to have plants in it if I leave out the biobale- used to grow bacteria in).
I'm not sure about a cleaner wrasse in any system but I dont see a problem with any of the other critters.
If you dont have algae problems you may find yourself having a hard time feeding your algae blenny.
In my BB tank I let the algae build up on the glass so my algae blenny has something to eat.

I have 2 chromis, 1 adult Bangaii, and one algae blenny. a bunch of tiny hermits, and no snails in my BB 25g; I think you'd be fine ;)

-Brett

[Thunderkat]

I already have the cleaner wrasse. It eats plenty and is doing fine.

I think the cleaner wrasse is a female though because it is eating so it can live and be around me longer. I do have that effect on the ladies. :lol

[Brett Wilson]

uhhh I dont know if I'd go that far after reading your other post. We'll see what happens this weekend ;) :P

[cpreefguy]

I have a 6" Special grade sandbed with a plenum set-up under the sand, better that bare bottom IMO

[Brett Wilson]

cpreefguy, by special grade are you talking about particle size?

[cpreefguy]

Special Grade Reef Aragonite...

[CD]

I have a 6" Special grade sandbed with a plenum set-up under the sand


How long has it been up and running?

Wendy

[Brett Wilson]

That is the name CaribSea puts on their 1-1.7mm sand.
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_substrates_calcium_reactor_media_caribsea .asp?ast=&key=

FYI the one that is simply rebagged YardRight/Southdown is "CaribSea Aragamax Sugar-Sized Reef Sand"

[brewercm]

Cons: -rocks can slide and break aquarium glass

This isn't a Con if you use the starboard material.

Just information, because it is basically a personal choice and the differences just aren't that great if you have plenty of LR. If you want to keep critters that play/live in the sand bed then you definately have to have some sand in there, whether it be DSB or not again is personal choice.

[don-n-sa]

ok you asked for it... :P


No DSB syndrome when it dies

Thats similar to saying, dont buy a _____ tang because they die...well they will die if you dont take care of them. A sandbed is like a living, breathing/non-breathing animal...it must be taken care of.

so... :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

[don-n-sa]

darn...we need more smilies.

oh Chris!!!!!

[AlexKilpatrick]

I'd like to chime in here. I set up a bare-bottom nano and a 180 about six months ago, and I have been really happy with both. I don't think I will ever do a sand bed again. The main reason I like them is that they are easier to clean, but "easier" isn't really a string enough word. Think about the difference between a wood floor and a carpet floor. The wood floor may seem dirtier because you can see the dirt, but in realty the carpet just hides the dirt.

Now, think of a wood floor vs a carpet that you never vacuum. To me, that is what a sandbed is like. You can't every really clean it because you can't really distinguish the sand from the muck. And I don't believe that any amount of cleanup critters really process the muck.

Every time I do a water change, I am amazed at how much muck I vacuum up. If I had a sandbed, I would just be blissfully ignorant of how much muck accumulates.

[akm]

I think a way of eliminating the rock falling proublems would be do use epoxy and sand mixed together, or just epoxy. The slightly sticky quality of the epoxy would help to keep the rock from sliding. I've seen people do this and it looks pretty nice too. With this and all the other pros of BB I'd say it would be worth trying(this coming from someone with a sand bed :roll )

[JeffCo]

Barebottom all the Way!! :D

[don-n-sa]

Ok...I have a funny theory on peeps who go barebottom in their tanks. :lol

Barebottom people are like nudists...they dont want the hassle of keeping their clother or underware clean, so they just stop wearing clothes altogether!!!! :sick

[eric]

The sand bed (deep or not) *is* more natural. Very few reefs have a glass bottom.

Sand will keep GSP in step? Not in my experience. It's grow right on sand, bury it and it'll sprout up eventually. At least it's easier to get/frag/pull off in the sand than on rock.

I have sand because I like it - not deep as far as DSB goes. And I don't maintain it ever, other than having a few animals I guess that do it for me. But I'm not bothered by anybody that doesn't want sand or any substrate. I'm not bothered by people who do or do not want Xenia for that matter.

[Thunderkat]

After much reading I think I will have to go with the plenum system.

People have claimed the system fails after one year. I think I know why. After one year sediment probably fills up the plenum's empty area. I imagine you just have to go in there once every few months and empty out the sediment in the plenum.

I also plan on using quite a bit of live rock with the plenum system. I am just going to get a little stand to keep the live rock propped up off the substrate so that way it keeps the bottom of the tank free for circulation of water.

I am going to keep my quaratine/nano tank bare bottom though, that little 10 gallon looks nice with the live rock and bare bottom. Of course that thing is jam packed with live rock :lol

[NaCl_H2O]

13) It's simply too cool to look up from the bottom of the tank to see the underside of the rocks and such, starfish, whatever, and all the critters you normally never see.

Ok, now I have a picture of Joshua staring at the underneath of his tank in the dark with a flashlight in one hand and his "Dosing Solution" in the other :roll

BTW - All that stuff that erodes off your LR, or critter skeleton fragments that fall onto your BB tank that you have to vacuum up ... that's called "sand" ;)

[Thunderkat]

everything serves a purpose, and a sandbed serves as a way for you to spend lots of money paying lfs employees to order and stock replacement corals for you everytime it crashes. go barebottom!

Well, after seeing the negative experiences people have had with it I am also going to put shelves in there to keep the substrate clear and stack live rock on there as a back up. I will also have a sump and minifuge this time around.

I have a rubbermaid container that I would like to make into a large fuge but I have no idea how to hook it up to my sump. I am going to try to make the sump higher and attach siphon tubes to it and put my pump in the rubbermaid thing.

Also after seeing all the different kind of corals the only ones I have really liked are mushrooms and xenia. Mushrooms and xenias come from polluted waters so could possibly withstand a "plenum crash" but for sure not an airplane crash.Ok, the airplane crash was just a joke, I hope no planes crash into my apartment as they do fly over periodically. I am going to do my best to get my hands on some macro algae and try to grow that in my main tank. Macro algae = beautiful :)

I have been playing with the idea of a seagrass tank but still need to do more research on seagrass. I don't know if my 55 with plenum will be large enough to accomodate.

[Thunderkat]

That reminds me, I want some seagrass for my 'fuge but I completely forgot. I think I'll have to order it online.

Oh, by the way that guest post was not me I swear!

:roll :lol

[reefer]

that was my post! I think if you go with a plenum, you will be for a headache. it takes about a year to get a plenum up and functional. until then you will have massive out breaks of nuissance algea. and then after that you will get about 3-4 years of use out of it. but that's 3-4 years with out disturbing the sandbed ( disturbing the sandbed in a plenum is a big no-no), but it will release large amount of toxic gases and anaerobic water into the reef. i do believe that a barebottom is the best way to go, imo, for long term success.
~reefer

[Thunderkat]

Can you do this (http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/seagrass/thal04f.jpg) with a bare bottom though?

I also need some nuisance algae in my tank for my algae blenny to munch on.

I will have my seagrass aquarium when I get out of the navy I tell ya! :lol

[don-n-sa]

wow...this is getting funny.

Look guys there is more than one way to do things in this hobby, and bare bottom is most defintely a great option for SPS dominated tanks with a fairly low bio-load. Even Bomber from RC has said that. Dont assume that everyone is doing the same tank that you are, because someone new to the hobby might try a tank like mine but go bare-bottom then watch his/her livestock die due to ammonia or nitrate problems.

The are some great successs stories with the use of plenum systems as well as some failures as well. There is no magic way out yet that is a "fail safe " system that will take care of itself, this hobby still requires human interaction and good husbandry to be a success long term. IMO there are several ways that can be very successful, it just takes researching and learning to find which one suits you and your livestock best.

I strongly recommend buying or borrowing the awesome book "Ultimate Marine Aquariums" by MICHAEL S. PALETTA...you will be astonished on how many different ways one can find success in this hobby.

Good luck to all!!! ><{{{{">

[JeffCo]

Don is right,
there are many different ways to have a successful reef. You just have to take into consideration multiple factors to decide what's best for you. Keep in mind: what types of coral you want to keep, what is aesthetically pleasing to your eye, what type of maintence you want to do. Each method will do fine if you keep up with the correct husbandary.

Example: I had a successful plenum system for about a year in a 75 gallon softy dominated tank. The tank was beautiful and everything was growing great with little to no algea.

Just decide what's best for you and research, research, and then do a little more reading.... :D

[Thunderkat]

><{{{{">

I just want to know what that means. It has left me cornfused. :wacko

[Brett Wilson]

it's an ASCII fish, this is an ASCII face with it's tongue sticking out :-P

[Brett Wilson]

I, however, am lost on your footer image.

BTW, you might want to decrease it's size. Seems a bit large for a message footer.

[Thunderkat]

My signature was made for me by a friend after I told them what I wanted.

I used to play everquest and I played an enchanter. Everybody always asked me to turn them into a gnome (for the small size and ease of navigation) and if I had the time I would turn them into anything but what they asked before I finally gave them what they wanted. The pic has the players names over their head like in EQ and the words in the "<>" symbols are the guild names.

The pic is only 46k not too big. I don't know how to do anything with it, if you know how to photoshop it and make it smaller that would be appreciated. Everybody always tell me they love my sig, first complaint ever and I use it on 4 different boards.

Another friend also made the avatar for me since they liked my sig so much. ^_^

[Brett Wilson]

AHHH... That makes sense now.
I never got into Everquest, World of Warcraft, or any of the other online community games. They seem interesting though.
46KB isnt bad at all. I just meant in terms of physical size on the screen for those that have lower resolution. That and my boss can tell that i'm surfing a little easier ;) :P
No need to change it as it was just a suggestion.

Sorry for the thread tanget all!

[Thunderkat]

I feel so stupid, I see the fish now :lol