Lime water...

[cbianco]

I noticed a few threads going on here regarding homemade Kalkwasser and I had a few question of my own. I didn't want to hi-jack anyones thread so I decided to make my own.

Originally I was educated by GaryP on using the 2 part system (Dow and Baking soda/Washing soda). The two part system is a bit more complicated and requires more attention than the pickling lime. Since I have a smaller tank I thought that it was probably easier to just use the pickling lime.

1. Where can I find pickling lime locally? (I looked at walmart @ I10 & Vance Jackson and HEB on Fredericksburg Rd, None available.)

2. From what I understand pickling lime will cause your pH to rise and you can use vinegar to lower the pH. Can we just make a mix of water, pickling lime and vinegar to lower the pH intially?

3. What other products (ie. inexpensive products) can you use to lower pH besides vinegar?

4. Is there a particular "recipe" that should be use when concocting this potion?

5. Anything I am missing or should be aware of?

I'm up for any opinions so have at it! Thanks for the help!

Christopher

[Polkster13]

Read the information found at this link (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/). I think it will answer most of your questions. If not, then we will do our best to answer any remaining questions.

[btacker]

I have really good luck finding pickling lime at Albertsons. They seem to always have it.

I do pretty much what Randy Holmes-Farley (Reef Central Chemistry Moderator) does. I have a 32 gallon trash can. I fill it with RO and then dump around half a bag of picking lime in it. It doesn't really matter if you add too much because only so much is soluble in the water. Be sure to take the water out above the bottom. Heavy metals precipitate out of the mix. I do add a little vinegar (around a cup). Then I mix it with a pump until it is totally white, around 5 minutes.

I drip this into my tank to replace all evaporated water. 32 gallons lasts me around a week and a half in my 110.

Here are some links:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-06/nftt/

http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html

[::pete::]

This link (http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html) was posted the other day in regards to the vinegar and I have found pickling lime at the HEB @ 410 and Bandera.

[cbianco]

OK guys give me a few I have tons to read now!

Thanks for all of the help, I'll be back (with more questions that is!). LOL :)

Christopher

[GaryP]

Vinegar also increases the solubility of the lime by converting it from Calcium Hydroxide to Calcium Acetate. Lime is only soluble to about 3% in water. I'm not sure what the % solubility is for the acetate salt, but its much higher than lime.

[cbianco]

Ok here is what I learned, most of which is a repeat for seasoned reef keepers. Keeping in mind that I am essentially a newbie, I will do a quick fact sheet.

PRO's

1. (As Gary said) adding vinegar to your mixure will allow you to surpass the normal (ie. water without vinegar) saturation point. On other words you can successfully raise the calcium level in your tank without causing precipitation (or whiteout?).

2. The vinegar should be mixed first with the calcium source before the water is added. This helps with several things:

One, the vinegar acts as an acid thus devouring the calcium into a more soluble substance to mix with the water.

Two, you avoid dosing "white powder" into your tank.

Three, the then broken down vinegar in the tank creates carbon, which feeds your bacteria, which converts gases.

3. The vinegar helps to bring your pH down since it is an acid while the calcium helps to raise your pH. With any luck an equalibrium can be found.

4. Kalkwasser may help to reduce phosphate in the tank.

5. Tank salinity will not increase (over time) when using kalkwasser.

6. The process and purchase of Kalkwasser is easy and inexpensive (relatively speaking).

CON's

1. Magnesium can be depleted, since it is not readily added with the Kalkwasser. Epsom salt can be (must be?) added INfrequently in order to acheive a desired balance.

2. Calcium can reak havok on your tank in elevated levels, also causing pH and Alk to come to undesirable levels in the tank.

Am I missing any thing here? Please let me know if there are any (major) holes in my reasoning.

I hope that I did not bore anyone but I am glad to do a bit of research and share it wih anyone that cares to listen. :)

Christopher

Credit to the following links:

1. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

2. http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html

3. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/#5

[GaryP]

1. You are actually raising the calcium concentration in the Kalk water that you are adding. It does allow you to dose more calcium which should raise you level in the tank. It has nothing to do with creating a white-out in your tank. You may be confusing solubilty of calcium in the additive with the solubility in the aquarium water.

2. I think there should be an excess of Kalk so that the pH of the Kalk water is still high. You aren't trying to neutralize the Kalk 100%. I would be more worried about adding a low pH solution than a high pH solution because the tendency of the pH in the tank is to fall. As for feeding the bacteria with extra carbon, I don't think there is ever a shortage of carbon for bacterial food.

4. Neutralized kalk is not going to be as effective at removing phosphate as unneutralized Kalk. The precipitation of phosphate, as calcium phosphate, is dependent on pH. It requires a high pH. See my comments above about completely neutralizing Kalk.

Con 1. Magnesium is not depleted by Lalk, its simply not supplemented. With the exception of a multi-metal product (blended) such as B-Ionic that's common with any calcium additive.

Con 2. Again, that's not unique to Kalk. Any additive has the potential for over treatment without testing to verify the validity of your additive strategy.

[brewercm]

If you'd like I can see if they have the Ball's Pickling Lime at Super S on Sunday evening when I get back to Bandera. I drive into town San Antonio everyday Mon - Fri for work and am usually at the new house (Off of 1604 and Redland) before going home to Bandera at night. I could pick some up for anyone if they want, can even bring it to the meeting next week if there's interest.

I'll check on Sunday and post a price on Monday to see if there's interest.

[GaryP]

Cliff,

Can you bring some to me?

[brewercm]

Sure, I'll start a thread on Monday and let know how much they have. How many cans would you like Gary and I'll put you at the top.

[cbianco]

GaryP

I am pretty sure that we are on the same page. Unfortunately, some of my wording may be off (sorry :)).

With regards to 2. and 4.

So basically I should not try to neutralize the pH in the Kalk/vinegar mixure rather keep it on the high side. I have little to no problem with my pH as is and I do not dose anything specifically for pH. When I start dripping Kalk will I have a problem with it pulling my Ph upwards (if the Kalk has a high pH? Or will a slow drip be relatively insignificant with regards to my current pH levels?

brewercm

I'm willing to bet that if you brought a few containers of pickling lime you could easily get someone to take them off of your hands. This stuff seems like it is difficult for us to find, lol.

Christopher

[brewercm]

I can do that. I'll probably just grab what they have and bring it in. Probably won't be too much, we are talking about a Super S and Bandera TX.

I don't remember the cost there, but I'm sure it is more than what I had paid when I found it at Wal-Mart before. still probably not more than a few bucks per can, still a lot cheaper than Kent or other name brands.

Looks like we'll have all kinds of white powder being sold at the meeting. 8)

[cbianco]

brewercm

If I cannot find any by the day of the meeting I'll take a can off of your hands!

Christopher

[brewercm]

No problem.

[GaryP]

What I was saying is that the purpose of the vinegar is to increase the solubility of the calcium in the lime water, not really do anything to the pH. Unless you add a ton of vinegar, you will still have an excess of Kalk and the ph will still be high. The only way the pH will go down is if you put in enough vinegar that the Kalk is completely neutralized. That will take a ton of vinegar. Kalk is almost 100% strength and vinegar is only 5%. It would take 20 times as much vinegar as Kalk to neutralize it.

BTW, be ready for this stuff to get really hot when you start neutralizing the Kalk. Stick your container in a sink filled with cool water.

For all you folks thinking about using Kalk!!!! Please be aware that Kalk is a strong caustic agent, similar to oven cleaner. It can cause chemical burns on skin or the eyes if it comes in contact with them. If you get it on you, wash thouroughly with a large amount of running water. If you get it in your eyes, flush with running water for 10 minutes. If anyone is interested I can find a Material Safety Data Sheet for you that containes safety and first aid info.

[GaryP]

Cliff, I'll take two boxes.

[cbianco]

Gary

Thanks for the clarification on the kalk mixture! I didn't think about the fact that vinegar is diluted to that extent so I am not going to worry about the vinegar a whole lot (with regards to neutralization that is). I did read the warnings about the kalk being caustic and such so I will practice a bit of caution when mixing.

Thanks for all of the good ideas, information and opinions everyone. Another satisfied MAAST customer! :)

Christopher

[GaryP]

Chris,

As I told you last night. I wouldn't worry about using a lot of additives on a 24 gal. tank. Its real easy to overdose a smaller tank. The margin of error is just a lot narrower. Unless you start loading up with SPS I think you can maintain your water chistry in a very acceptable range by simply doing weekly water changes.

[JimD]

Ever see the nasty residue Balls or Wages leaves behind in a kalk reactor? I have and I have to believe that some of it is getting to the tank. Personaly, I wouldnt try to save pennies in this area. But thats just me. ESV leaves no residue in the reactor meaning that all of it is soluable, equating to much less impurities delivered to the tank.

[GaryP]

Its about time you put in your .02 cents Jim. I'm tired of carrying your load on this thread. :) Want to take over for me here? :) You're the Kalk guru anyway.

I'm not using a reactor so I'm not really worried about the residue. I clean my jug out occasionally.

[JimD]

Its about time you put in your .02 cents Jim. I'm tired of carrying your load on this thread. :) Want to take over for me here? :) You're the Kalk guru anyway.

I'm not using a reactor so I'm not really worried about the residue. I clean my jug out occasionally.

lol, Youre doing an outstanding job Gary... Very interesting and complete, keep up the excellent work.
You say you clean your jug every once in a while,, Id be curous to analize the components of that sludge/ material. What color is it?

[GaryP]

I've never used Pickling Lime. I thought I would give it a try. I've been using ESV. I think we need to try to get a bag of food grade calcium chloride and give it a try. I'll check on it when I pick up the Dowflake.

[matt]

Ok here is what I learned, most of which is a repeat for seasoned reef keepers. Keeping in mind that I am essentially a newbie, I will do a quick fact sheet.
(etc.)


You're making this much more complicated than it has be. First, you should really think of KW as a way to replace calcium and carbonate used by the animals in your tank, not as a way to micro-manage the ph or other tank parameters. So you need to get an idea of how much calcium and carbonate you're using. This is really dependent on the amount of photosynthesis in your tank, based on how many corals, clams, etc you have and the intensity of your lighting. You might want to read the secton on kalkwasser in Ron Shimek's "The coral reef aquarium" as he does a good job of explaining the use of KW from a practical perspective, with some chemistry to help you understand what's going on.

Really, the most important and difficult thing in using KW is to get the right delivery system; if you have a small tank with little evaporation and a sump, you might want to try the glass jug/2 holed stopper/pyrex pipe/tygon tubing arrangement. Basically you put a large glass jug of KW next to your tank set up so that when the sump level drops, KW flows out of the jug into the sump and stops when the water reaches it's original level. This is a nice auto top off as well. Or you can just drip a specific amount daily (nightly might be better). If you do either of these two things, it is almost inconceivable that you'll have a ph problem in the tank.

In the event that you have a very high calcium demand, using regular white vinegar (corals have no appreciation of good balsamic) to increase the solubilty of calcium hydroxide in water can be a good thing; no more than 25ml/gallon to start with is the typical rule of thumb. But, I think I'm safe in saying that if you had enough corals growing fast enough to demand this sort of thing, you'd probably have enough experience maintaining the CA and Alk levels in your tank to know what the best routine is. Have fun!!